Absolutely doomed from the start. The northeast didn’t have enough athletic programs that were all on the same page.

BC and Cuse? They were committed to their Catholic basketball league

Pitt? While an excellent on field rival for Penn St, there was serious distrust between the administrations of the respective schools.

Rutgers and Temple? They had competitive issues.

Army and Navy? Not interested in a regional conference and their Olympic sports weren’t up to par.

WVU? They were loyal to Penn St but others In The region thought they were beneath them.

VT, Miami, and FSU? These schools would all prefer ACC membership.

Similarly, Penn St and several others would prefer Big Ten membership to any eastern league.

(02-15-2020 10:29 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  Temple was improving when kick out, basically Temple was stunting Conn & Rutgers growth.
All 3 were recruiting Eastern Pa & NJ. Bobby Wallace did help, Temple hired him to run option after winning NC in div2, got off plane & announced switch to spread OFF. After Temple got rid of him, went back to div 2 and won NC running option

The bigger issue was when the Big East chose Rutgers as a full member over Temple in the first place. That was total crap to me and a slap in the face of John Chaney.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/3958...ds-rutgers)

You can thank Villanova for Rutgers getting in over Temple.

The Big East became doomed when it failed to recognize the ACC's predatory intent. Had it done so 20 years ago, it could have struck first and perhaps survived.

(02-15-2020 10:03 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Take it from a non football member's perspective, say Villanova. If you accept, say a TCU, as a full member, you have to travel to Fort Worth in men's and women's basketball, baseball, softball, men's and women's soccer (assuming TCU has all these sports). It's one thing to do these for Miami (especially when they were competing for national championships) and another for Tulsa. Once the Big East lost Miami and they were just adding football members to fill a conference, the Catholic 7 had enough.

I also don't believe that all sports in one conference works for everyone. There are certainly cases where having your football team in a different conference than the rest of your school's sports works like Hawaii playing football in the MWC and other sports in the Big West and Navy playing football in the AAC and other sports in the Patriot. I'm sure West Virginia would love to have its other sports in the Big East while keeping its football in the Big 12 (if I were the Big 12, I'd let them to it so the rest of the conference's sports don't have to travel to West Virginia).

I said before the Big East was "choosing sides" when it made Rutgers and West Virginia full members but not Temple or Virginia Tech. Maybe they should have just kept Big East football separate all along (or only Miami a full member). Then the Big East would have never had 16 members or added DePaul/Marquette, giving the Villanova's and Georgetown's enough extra members to break away. Of course if you assume the ACC would have come for Boston College, Syracuse, and Pittsburgh like they did, the Big East probably would have just closed up in football altogether and the remaining schools would have had to find new conferences or move to existing conferences (kind of like what happened to A-10 football).

See red bolded red above. Big East today with out Marquette and DePaul. Same set up for football with East and West Divisions. North and South Divisions for BB and Olympic Sports.

North BB / Olympic Sports - Providence, St. John's, Nova, G'Town, Seton Hall, UConn, Temple, Cinn. Cuts travel expenses for these programs.

South BB / Olympic Sports - Memphis, ECU, USF, UCF, Tulane, SMU, Houston, Tulsa. Cuts travel expenses for these programs.

BB / Olympic Sports - Nova, G'Town, Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence.

All Sports - UConn, Temple, ECU, Cinn, Memphis, UCF, USF, Tulane, SMU, Houston, Tulsa.

FB Only - Navy.

Great BB and good FB may have commanded a better contract from ESPN to keep them all together as a definite P6 Conference with the continued strength of the Men's BB programs. It would still be a "Tweener Conference" just below the new P5 label in the new Division One Hierarchy if nothing else.

(02-15-2020 01:43 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  Are we talking from when the football conference started? If so definitely and it is not because of internal conflicts, it's from the simple reality of the situation. The conference was new and had several schools that would be valuable in more stable conferences. By the time it formed a football conference, there was nothing it could do to stop the ACC from expanding (Miami wanted with Florida State more than the other way around and with that move any Big East college would follow).

By themselves, both the ACC and Big East football where distant in football pedigree to the Big Ten and SEC and some kind of merger made sense. What we ended up with was the ACC slowly taking the Big East schools it wanted. If you want to create a scenario where the Big East survives as a major football conference till today, I think you have to reverse the reality of the ACC having the upper hand.

How do you get there? I think you need two things.

1. Penn State joins the Big East in the 80s which pushes a somewhat earlier football conference. They might still leave for the Big Ten in the early 90s, but regardless of if they do or they don't the added attention to the Big East is crucial. That might make it more attractive for Florida State as they look for a home, but regardless...
2. Florida State does not join the ACC. It could have easily joined the SEC if they had wanted. Without them, ACC football at this point is much, much weaker.

From there, you need Miami to choose the Big East too still.

Interesting point -- Miami might not have been interested in the ACC if FSU wasn't there. On the other hand... if FSU had turned down the ACC, the ACC probably would have invited Miami instead in 1990-1991. They wanted to beef up their football reputation at that time one way or another.

Also, the success of the Big East today proves that the entire reason for starting Big East football was wrong. Football was unnecessary for the BE. Tranghese thought that the BE had to graft football onto itself in order to be significant in basketball. But the Big East today has no football, and has none of the "original" members that play FBS football, and is still significant in basketball.

(02-15-2020 12:16 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 01:43 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  Are we talking from when the football conference started? If so definitely and it is not because of internal conflicts, it's from the simple reality of the situation. The conference was new and had several schools that would be valuable in more stable conferences. By the time it formed a football conference, there was nothing it could do to stop the ACC from expanding (Miami wanted with Florida State more than the other way around and with that move any Big East college would follow).

By themselves, both the ACC and Big East football where distant in football pedigree to the Big Ten and SEC and some kind of merger made sense. What we ended up with was the ACC slowly taking the Big East schools it wanted. If you want to create a scenario where the Big East survives as a major football conference till today, I think you have to reverse the reality of the ACC having the upper hand.

How do you get there? I think you need two things.

1. Penn State joins the Big East in the 80s which pushes a somewhat earlier football conference. They might still leave for the Big Ten in the early 90s, but regardless of if they do or they don't the added attention to the Big East is crucial. That might make it more attractive for Florida State as they look for a home, but regardless...
2. Florida State does not join the ACC. It could have easily joined the SEC if they had wanted. Without them, ACC football at this point is much, much weaker.

From there, you need Miami to choose the Big East too still.

Interesting point -- Miami might not have been interested in the ACC if FSU wasn't there. On the other hand... if FSU had turned down the ACC, the ACC probably would have invited Miami instead in 1990-1991. They wanted to beef up their football reputation at that time one way or another.

Also, the success of the Big East today proves that the entire reason for starting Big East football was wrong. Football was unnecessary for the BE. Tranghese thought that the BE had to graft football onto itself in order to be significant in basketball. But the Big East today has no football, and has none of the "original" members that play FBS football, and is still significant in basketball.

They wanted to keep the football playing members in the basketball conference. At the time, Butler, Creighton, and Xavier were not viable replacements. DePaul was mediocre at best. Although they don't need the football schools now for their basketball, they certainly needed them then.

(02-15-2020 12:35 PM)BatonRougeEscapee Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 12:16 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 01:43 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  Are we talking from when the football conference started? If so definitely and it is not because of internal conflicts, it's from the simple reality of the situation. The conference was new and had several schools that would be valuable in more stable conferences. By the time it formed a football conference, there was nothing it could do to stop the ACC from expanding (Miami wanted with Florida State more than the other way around and with that move any Big East college would follow).

By themselves, both the ACC and Big East football where distant in football pedigree to the Big Ten and SEC and some kind of merger made sense. What we ended up with was the ACC slowly taking the Big East schools it wanted. If you want to create a scenario where the Big East survives as a major football conference till today, I think you have to reverse the reality of the ACC having the upper hand.

How do you get there? I think you need two things.

1. Penn State joins the Big East in the 80s which pushes a somewhat earlier football conference. They might still leave for the Big Ten in the early 90s, but regardless of if they do or they don't the added attention to the Big East is crucial. That might make it more attractive for Florida State as they look for a home, but regardless...
2. Florida State does not join the ACC. It could have easily joined the SEC if they had wanted. Without them, ACC football at this point is much, much weaker.

From there, you need Miami to choose the Big East too still.

Interesting point -- Miami might not have been interested in the ACC if FSU wasn't there. On the other hand... if FSU had turned down the ACC, the ACC probably would have invited Miami instead in 1990-1991. They wanted to beef up their football reputation at that time one way or another.

Also, the success of the Big East today proves that the entire reason for starting Big East football was wrong. Football was unnecessary for the BE. Tranghese thought that the BE had to graft football onto itself in order to be significant in basketball. But the Big East today has no football, and has none of the "original" members that play FBS football, and is still significant in basketball.

They wanted to keep the football playing members in the basketball conference. At the time, Butler, Creighton, and Xavier were not viable replacements. DePaul was mediocre at best. Although they don't need the football schools now for their basketball, they certainly needed them then.

The Big East had three members -- Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Boston College -- that played I-A football then. No football conference made an offer to Pitt or BC. Syracuse didn't express interest in leaving when the ACC approached them. So wanting to keep those three in the Big East was an even weaker reason for starting Big East football than the reason I mentioned above.

Maybe the real reason Big East football was started was just Tranghese's ego, just that he wanted to be the commissioner of a power football conference and not the commissioner of a mere eastern hoops league.

(02-15-2020 10:29 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  Temple was improving when kick out, basically Temple was stunting Conn & Rutgers growth.
All 3 were recruiting Eastern Pa & NJ. Bobby Wallace did help, Temple hired him to run option after winning NC in div2, got off plane & announced switch to spread OFF. After Temple got rid of him, went back to div 2 and won NC running option

The Temple president didn't help matters when he pressed the full membership issue. He had a reputation of killing football in a past stop and that had to be going through the minds of everyone.

Villanova was never going to let Temple into the Big East -- it wanted the upper hand in Philadelphia. Even when Temple came back, the press conference announcing the addition was more about Villanova than Temple.

As far as Rutgers went, the Big East wanted Rutgers as a founding member. Rutgers declined, putting its hopes in Paterno for the all sports conference. I believe that Seton Hall voted to let Rutgers in back in 1994, but there was no way at the time to get Va Tech and Temple in as well.

It was a political move on all fronts.

To the original point, if the Eastern 8 and Big East had realigned along football/non football lines, both conferences could be now what they were at the time. Both conferences focused on basketball only, which in hindsight was a mistake.

(02-15-2020 01:03 PM)megadrone Wrote:  To the original point, if the Eastern 8 and Big East had realigned along football/non football lines, both conferences could be now what they were at the time. Both conferences focused on basketball only, which in hindsight was a mistake.

So, like this?

Big East (9): Connecticut, Duquesne, George Washington, Georgetown, Massachusetts, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova

EAA (7): Boston College, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, West Virginia

Not bad. Especially not bad if the EAA were to pick up VT, Miami, and FSU within a decade or so.

Maybe there could be a basketball scheduling alliance between the two conferences.

(02-15-2020 01:23 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 01:03 PM)megadrone Wrote:  To the original point, if the Eastern 8 and Big East had realigned along football/non football lines, both conferences could be now what they were at the time. Both conferences focused on basketball only, which in hindsight was a mistake.

So, like this?

Big East (9): Connecticut, Duquesne, George Washington, Georgetown, Massachusetts, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova

EAA (7): Boston College, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, West Virginia

Not bad. Especially not bad if the EAA were to soon pick up VT, Miami, and FSU.

Maybe there could be a basketball scheduling alliance between the two conferences.

Move UConn over to the "EAA" and I like it.

(02-15-2020 01:26 PM)schmolik Wrote:  Move UConn over to the "EAA" and I like it.

The EAA (Eastern Athletic Association) was the official name of the Eastern 8, which of course later became the A-10. UConn did not have DI (1973-77) or I-A (starting 1978) football then, so it would probably have been grouped with the other basketball-first schools.

(02-15-2020 12:45 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 12:35 PM)BatonRougeEscapee Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 12:16 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 01:43 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  Are we talking from when the football conference started? If so definitely and it is not because of internal conflicts, it's from the simple reality of the situation. The conference was new and had several schools that would be valuable in more stable conferences. By the time it formed a football conference, there was nothing it could do to stop the ACC from expanding (Miami wanted with Florida State more than the other way around and with that move any Big East college would follow).

By themselves, both the ACC and Big East football where distant in football pedigree to the Big Ten and SEC and some kind of merger made sense. What we ended up with was the ACC slowly taking the Big East schools it wanted. If you want to create a scenario where the Big East survives as a major football conference till today, I think you have to reverse the reality of the ACC having the upper hand.

How do you get there? I think you need two things.

1. Penn State joins the Big East in the 80s which pushes a somewhat earlier football conference. They might still leave for the Big Ten in the early 90s, but regardless of if they do or they don't the added attention to the Big East is crucial. That might make it more attractive for Florida State as they look for a home, but regardless...
2. Florida State does not join the ACC. It could have easily joined the SEC if they had wanted. Without them, ACC football at this point is much, much weaker.

From there, you need Miami to choose the Big East too still.

Interesting point -- Miami might not have been interested in the ACC if FSU wasn't there. On the other hand... if FSU had turned down the ACC, the ACC probably would have invited Miami instead in 1990-1991. They wanted to beef up their football reputation at that time one way or another.

Also, the success of the Big East today proves that the entire reason for starting Big East football was wrong. Football was unnecessary for the BE. Tranghese thought that the BE had to graft football onto itself in order to be significant in basketball. But the Big East today has no football, and has none of the "original" members that play FBS football, and is still significant in basketball.

They wanted to keep the football playing members in the basketball conference. At the time, Butler, Creighton, and Xavier were not viable replacements. DePaul was mediocre at best. Although they don't need the football schools now for their basketball, they certainly needed them then.

The Big East had three members -- Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Boston College -- that played I-A football then. No football conference made an offer to Pitt or BC. Syracuse didn't express interest in leaving when the ACC approached them. So wanting to keep those three in the Big East was an even weaker reason for starting Big East football than the reason I mentioned above.

Maybe the real reason Big East football was started was just Tranghese's ego, just that he wanted to be the commissioner of a power football conference and not the commissioner of a mere eastern hoops league.

Tranghese actually tried to get the ACC to take Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and BC for FB only at one point while keeping their BB and Olympic Sports in the BE to take care of the FB problem as independents disappeared from the NE Region. When the ACC said no he went on to build FB into the conference by getting to the minimum 8 schools necessary to mean NCAA rules. Funny how that came back to haunt the BE years latter when the ACC took those schools for FB to kill of the upstart BE competition it had on the East Coast and its football programs.

(02-15-2020 01:42 PM)panite Wrote:  Tranghese actually tried to get the ACC to take Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and BC for FB only at one point while keeping their BB and Olympic Sports in the BE to take care of the FB problem as independents disappeared from the NE Region. When the ACC said no he went on to build FB into the conference by getting to the minimum 8 schools necessary to mean NCAA rules. Funny how that came back to haunt the BE years latter when the ACC took those schools for FB to kill of the upstart BE competition it had on the East Coast and its football programs.

Was there an 8-school rule then for any sports? There isn't one now except for the FBS requiring 8 full, FB-playing members, but that didn't go into effect until 2005.

(02-15-2020 01:23 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Big East (9): Connecticut, Duquesne, George Washington, Georgetown, Massachusetts, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova

EAA (7): Boston College, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, West Virginia

St. Bonaventure, St. Joseph's, and Rhode Island would make it 12 in the first group.

(02-15-2020 01:45 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 01:42 PM)panite Wrote:  Tranghese actually tried to get the ACC to take Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and BC for FB only at one point while keeping their BB and Olympic Sports in the BE to take care of the FB problem as independents disappeared from the NE Region. When the ACC said no he went on to build FB into the conference by getting to the minimum 8 schools necessary to mean NCAA rules. Funny how that came back to haunt the BE years latter when the ACC took those schools for FB to kill of the upstart BE competition it had on the East Coast and its football programs.

Was there an 8-school rule then for any sports? There isn't one now except for the FBS requiring 8 full, FB-playing members, but that didn't go into effect until 2005.

You could be right. Not sure on that point now that you mention it, but the BE 1991 inaugural FB season started with the addition of Rutgers, Miami, VT, WV, and Temple; to Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and BC for 8 teams to get started. Miami was the only All Sports addition while the other 4 schools were brought in for FB only.

(02-15-2020 01:54 PM)Inkblot Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 01:23 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Big East (9): Connecticut, Duquesne, George Washington, Georgetown, Massachusetts, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova

EAA (7): Boston College, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, West Virginia

I think you're missing St. Bonaventure, who'd make it 10 in the first group.

I dunno -- they weren't added until Penn State left in 1979. So I didn't know if they'd be among the founders here.

Well, you're including Temple, who was in the ECC until 1982...

(02-15-2020 02:05 PM)Inkblot Wrote:  Well, you're including Temple, who was in the ECC until 1982...

That's because the FB side was more short-handed than the BB side.

(02-15-2020 02:07 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 02:05 PM)Inkblot Wrote:  Well, you're including Temple, who was in the ECC until 1982...

That's because the FB side was more short-handed than the BB side.

In that case, you could also put Villanova on that side, as well as Colgate and Holy Cross. They were all I-A at the time.