i can provide first hand insight on this topic from conversations that Dr. Paschall and I had in the 1990's. I can confirm that he did have a agreement with the ACC for W&M to be invited as the next school to join the ACC and that in fact Graves did not follow thru on that agreement. Dr Paschall retired July 1971 and W&M Hall (now Kaplan) was opened December 1970 to provide us with an arena that would qualify us to join the ACC (which at that time was much more focused in BB versus football). South Carolina did leave the ACC on 7/1/1971.

We routinely played HOME MBB games against ACC teams in the early 1970's with us playing in 1971-72 both Wake and UVA at home plus at Duke while also playing VPI (VA Tech) home and way plus at home against both Cincinnati and WVA!!

(01-14-2020 07:49 PM)wmmii Wrote:  i can provide first hand insight on this topic from conversations that Dr. Paschall and I had in the 1990's. I can confirm that he did have a agreement with the ACC for W&M to be invited as the next school to join the ACC and that in fact Graves did not follow thru on that agreement. Dr Paschall retired July 1971 and W&M Hall (now Kaplan) was opened December 1970 to provide us with an arena that would qualify us to join the ACC (which at that time was much more focused in BB versus football). South Carolina did leave the ACC on 7/1/1971.

We routinely played HOME MBB games against ACC teams in the early 1970's with us playing in 1971-72 both Wake and UVA at home plus at Duke while also playing VPI (VA Tech) home and way plus at home against both Cincinnati and WVA!!

Interesting!

When looking back on the old SoCon, William & Mary and George Washington seem like they both would have been good fits for the ACC.

(01-13-2020 07:27 PM)TribeDeac Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 07:06 PM)esayem Wrote:  Thanks for the info.

So when the NCAA created the 1-A/1-AA split, W&M and Richmond both left the SoCon to pursue 1-A football? What was the catalyst for dropping down a few years later?

WM and Richmond both left the SC when the SC had some defections and brought in East Tennessee State and another school to replace the defections. The NCAA separated the schools into 1-A and 1-AA later. WM and Richmond had no input into where they were placed.

I’ve read some sources say Richmond and W&M dropped—or was dropped by the NCAA—to 1-AA after 1981, and others 1983. I can’t find any articles on the subject though. It looks like they had 1-A teams scheduled until 1983.

(01-15-2020 10:15 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 07:27 PM)TribeDeac Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 07:06 PM)esayem Wrote:  Thanks for the info.

So when the NCAA created the 1-A/1-AA split, W&M and Richmond both left the SoCon to pursue 1-A football? What was the catalyst for dropping down a few years later?

WM and Richmond both left the SC when the SC had some defections and brought in East Tennessee State and another school to replace the defections. The NCAA separated the schools into 1-A and 1-AA later. WM and Richmond had no input into where they were placed.

I’ve read some sources say Richmond and W&M dropped—or was dropped by the NCAA—to 1-AA after 1981, and others 1983. I can’t find any articles on the subject though. It looks like they had 1-A teams scheduled until 1983.

I think 81. That's when most programs moved, and what our website says.

https://tribeathletics.com/sports/2015/1...aspx?id=55

It's probably hard to imagine how things were back in the early 70s for younger posters on this forum. Some examples. No ESPN or other sports networks. No internet. The only college team that was on TV every week was Notre Dame on ABC and they were an independent. Outside of that there was no TV money to speak of. It was a much more even playing field for teams like ours to play against the big boys. BTW, UVA sucked back then, JMU didn't have a team, and Norfolk held a game every year called the Oyster Bowl and invited teams like William and Mary to play. Of course there wasn't ODU football, and Norfolk State and Hampton were D2.

(01-15-2020 10:28 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  

(01-15-2020 10:15 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 07:27 PM)TribeDeac Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 07:06 PM)esayem Wrote:  Thanks for the info.

So when the NCAA created the 1-A/1-AA split, W&M and Richmond both left the SoCon to pursue 1-A football? What was the catalyst for dropping down a few years later?

WM and Richmond both left the SC when the SC had some defections and brought in East Tennessee State and another school to replace the defections. The NCAA separated the schools into 1-A and 1-AA later. WM and Richmond had no input into where they were placed.

I’ve read some sources say Richmond and W&M dropped—or was dropped by the NCAA—to 1-AA after 1981, and others 1983. I can’t find any articles on the subject though. It looks like they had 1-A teams scheduled until 1983.

I think 81. That's when most programs moved, and what our website says.

https://tribeathletics.com/sports/2015/1...aspx?id=55

Ah, that makes sense. The other website was listing them as 1-A because they played more than half their schedule against 1-A teams. Probably because the games were already scheduled.

(01-15-2020 10:42 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  It's probably hard to imagine how things were back in the early 70s for younger posters on this forum. Some examples. No ESPN or other sports networks. No internet. The only college team that was on TV every week was Notre Dame on ABC and they were an independent. Outside of that there was no TV money to speak of. It was a much more even playing field for teams like ours to play against the big boys. BTW, UVA sucked back then, JMU didn't have a team, and Norfolk held a game every year called the Oyster Bowl and invited teams like William and Mary to play. Of course there wasn't ODU football, and Norfolk State and Hampton were D2.

...and Virginia's Big Five were UVA, Tech, W&M, U of R and VMI. All five got coverage in most state papers.

(01-15-2020 10:42 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  It's probably hard to imagine how things were back in the early 70s for younger posters on this forum. Some examples. No ESPN or other sports networks. No internet. The only college team that was on TV every week was Notre Dame on ABC and they were an independent. Outside of that there was no TV money to speak of. It was a much more even playing field for teams like ours to play against the big boys. BTW, UVA sucked back then, JMU didn't have a team, and Norfolk held a game every year called the Oyster Bowl and invited teams like William and Mary to play. Of course there wasn't ODU football, and Norfolk State and Hampton were D2.

I was born in the 80’s, and I remember it was hard to watch certain teams on TV back then. Now I can watch any team. It’s crazy.

I heard about a Tobacco Bowl too. I have a lot family from VA.

Here are old threads on the original 1A/1AA split with sourcing
https://csnbbs.com/thread-747066.html

https://csnbbs.com/thread-879987.html

Look back in the old records and you'll find that there was a state "Big Six" Championship. Washington & Lee was Div I many years ago and joined W&M, UVA, Richmond, Va Tech, and VMI as "The Big Six".

(01-14-2020 07:49 PM)wmmii Wrote:  i can provide first hand insight on this topic from conversations that Dr. Paschall and I had in the 1990's. I can confirm that he did have a agreement with the ACC for W&M to be invited as the next school to join the ACC and that in fact Graves did not follow thru on that agreement. Dr Paschall retired July 1971 and W&M Hall (now Kaplan) was opened December 1970 to provide us with an arena that would qualify us to join the ACC (which at that time was much more focused in BB versus football). South Carolina did leave the ACC on 7/1/1971.

We routinely played HOME MBB games against ACC teams in the early 1970's with us playing in 1971-72 both Wake and UVA at home plus at Duke while also playing VPI (VA Tech) home and way plus at home against both Cincinnati and WVA!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The W&M faculty was opposed to "big time" sports [and they still are] and was opposed to Paschall''s plans to upgrade the football and basketball programs. Dr Paschall was one of the best W&M Presidents ever and contributed greatly to the to the growth and development of our University. Paschall and his wife were both W&M graduates. Before coming to W&M he had been Virginia State Superintendent of Education and was widely liked and respected in the VA Legislature. [This was during the time that W&M received a substantial portion of it's funding from the State so it was important to be a good politician with lots of contacts in Richmond] Look at Paul Trimble President of Christopher Newport as an example of a growth oriented politically savvy state university President in Virginia.

President Graves, on the other hand was from New England, was a pure academic scholar and knew no one in Richmond. He was a Yale graduate with graduate degrees from Harvard and loved the thought of somehow moving W&M into the prestigious Ivy League. Thus the birth of "the Public Ivy" campaign. W&M started scheduling Ivy League schools in football on a fairly regular basis. Graves was a frequent visitor to Yale for one thing or another and he would always schedule a W&M Alumni event when he was in New Haven. At the time, I lived and worked close to New Haven so I had the opportunity to hear from and interact with Dr Graves on numerous occasions.

Of course, the W&M faculty were delirious at the thought of joining the Ivy League and association with those schools rather than the ACC possibilities. As it turned out, we were not wanted by either league and without strong state support there was no way W&M could compete in the ACC.

Whenever I hear about how we tried to become part of the Ivy League, I think of this:

https://dilbert.com/strip/1995-05-13

(01-19-2020 12:07 PM)62Indian Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 07:49 PM)wmmii Wrote:  i can provide first hand insight on this topic from conversations that Dr. Paschall and I had in the 1990's. I can confirm that he did have a agreement with the ACC for W&M to be invited as the next school to join the ACC and that in fact Graves did not follow thru on that agreement. Dr Paschall retired July 1971 and W&M Hall (now Kaplan) was opened December 1970 to provide us with an arena that would qualify us to join the ACC (which at that time was much more focused in BB versus football). South Carolina did leave the ACC on 7/1/1971.

We routinely played HOME MBB games against ACC teams in the early 1970's with us playing in 1971-72 both Wake and UVA at home plus at Duke while also playing VPI (VA Tech) home and way plus at home against both Cincinnati and WVA!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The W&M faculty was opposed to "big time" sports [and they still are] and was opposed to Paschall''s plans to upgrade the football and basketball programs. Dr Paschall was one of the best W&M Presidents ever and contributed greatly to the to the growth and development of our University. Paschall and his wife were both W&M graduates. Before coming to W&M he had been Virginia State Superintendent of Education and was widely liked and respected in the VA Legislature. [This was during the time that W&M received a substantial portion of it's funding from the State so it was important to be a good politician with lots of contacts in Richmond] Look at Paul Trimble President of Christopher Newport as an example of a growth oriented politically savvy state university President in Virginia.

President Graves, on the other hand was from New England, was a pure academic scholar and knew no one in Richmond. He was a Yale graduate with graduate degrees from Harvard and loved the thought of somehow moving W&M into the prestigious Ivy League. Thus the birth of "the Public Ivy" campaign. W&M started scheduling Ivy League schools in football on a fairly regular basis. Graves was a frequent visitor to Yale for one thing or another and he would always schedule a W&M Alumni event when he was in New Haven. At the time, I lived and worked close to New Haven so I had the opportunity to hear from and interact with Dr Graves on numerous occasions.

Of course, the W&M faculty were delirious at the thought of joining the Ivy League and association with those schools rather than the ACC possibilities. As it turned out, we were not wanted by either league and without strong state support there was no way W&M could compete in the ACC.

It’s worth noting, at the time all this was happening in the early 70s, the Ivy and ACC were both D1 football.

And I don’t remember that we or Graves attempted Ivy membership, only we wanted to move in an “Ivy direction” which became reality when we announced formation of the Colonial League (now Patriot) in the early 80s.

(01-19-2020 12:07 PM)62Indian Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 07:49 PM)wmmii Wrote:  i can provide first hand insight on this topic from conversations that Dr. Paschall and I had in the 1990's. I can confirm that he did have a agreement with the ACC for W&M to be invited as the next school to join the ACC and that in fact Graves did not follow thru on that agreement. Dr Paschall retired July 1971 and W&M Hall (now Kaplan) was opened December 1970 to provide us with an arena that would qualify us to join the ACC (which at that time was much more focused in BB versus football). South Carolina did leave the ACC on 7/1/1971.

We routinely played HOME MBB games against ACC teams in the early 1970's with us playing in 1971-72 both Wake and UVA at home plus at Duke while also playing VPI (VA Tech) home and way plus at home against both Cincinnati and WVA!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The W&M faculty was opposed to "big time" sports [and they still are] and was opposed to Paschall''s plans to upgrade the football and basketball programs. Dr Paschall was one of the best W&M Presidents ever and contributed greatly to the to the growth and development of our University. Paschall and his wife were both W&M graduates. Before coming to W&M he had been Virginia State Superintendent of Education and was widely liked and respected in the VA Legislature. [This was during the time that W&M received a substantial portion of it's funding from the State so it was important to be a good politician with lots of contacts in Richmond] Look at Paul Trimble President of Christopher Newport as an example of a growth oriented politically savvy state university President in Virginia.

President Graves, on the other hand was from New England, was a pure academic scholar and knew no one in Richmond. He was a Yale graduate with graduate degrees from Harvard and loved the thought of somehow moving W&M into the prestigious Ivy League. Thus the birth of "the Public Ivy" campaign. W&M started scheduling Ivy League schools in football on a fairly regular basis. Graves was a frequent visitor to Yale for one thing or another and he would always schedule a W&M Alumni event when he was in New Haven. At the time, I lived and worked close to New Haven so I had the opportunity to hear from and interact with Dr Graves on numerous occasions.

Of course, the W&M faculty were delirious at the thought of joining the Ivy League and association with those schools rather than the ACC possibilities. As it turned out, we were not wanted by either league and without strong state support there was no way W&M could compete in the ACC.

Agree that the faculty helped submarine us joining the ACC along with Graves.

That was almost 50 years ago! It is what it is today.

I wonder about the counterfactual history in this story. What if we had made the big push and the ACC had taken us in. It's hard for me to imagine Trevor Lawrence tossing touchdown passes at Zable. But what else would be different? What would our enrollment look like? What would our investment in other buildings have been? Would we be a destination for an even better group of cross country runners? Bigger delis? Larger community overall? Discuss.

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UNC and Duke and UVa have proven that you can play big-time sports and still maintain a good academic reputation. So I think that W&M would have been able to maintain its reputation. Having said that, it is clear that sports would have been exponentially more visible at W&M if we had joined the ACC. In fact, we would have been forced to upgrade many aspects just in order to compete. I think we would have achieved ACC-average in basketball relatively quickly and, with Laycock, we probably would have been above average in football for several decades. Our Olympic sports likewise would have thrived --- and all the sports would have benefited from the built-in advantages of being in the ACC.

So, for me, I can't help but think that Graves dropped the ball on what might have been.

I don't see how we could have kept up with the big dogs in the ACC as a small, public school with high academic standards and a low acceptance rate. The closest analogy to W&M in the ACC (imho) is Wake Forest, but it is a private school. I can't think of small, public school school that even competes at the I-A level much less has success.

But I'd love to be proven wrong. And I'd love to hear from someone with a different opinion. Maybe playing big-time sports would have encouraged our donor base to give more money than they have for our second tier leagues?

(01-19-2020 09:20 PM)Marshall Wythe Wrote:  I don't see how we could have kept up with the big dogs in the ACC as a small, public school with high academic standards and a low acceptance rate. The closest analogy to W&M in the ACC (imho) is Wake Forest, but it is a private school. I can't think of small, public school school that even competes at the I-A level much less has success.

But I'd love to be proven wrong. And I'd love to hear from someone with a different opinion. Maybe playing big-time sports would have encouraged our donor base to give more money than they have for our second tier leagues?

The smallest is Louisiana Monroe, which isn't a super strong program.

I wouldn't be shocked if we wound up like Rice, where we were in a big conference but got lost in the shuffle of realignment.

(01-19-2020 04:51 PM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  That was almost 50 years ago! It is what it is today.

Yep but good folklore


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