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William & Mary & The ACC
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
Just a few notes about how it may have progressed.

For football, we would have needed an upgraded stadium. I don't think we would have had a lot of trouble filling it up. Back then Tribe fans came regularly from the Penninsula, Norfolk, VA Beach. ODU didn't have football and there was demand. We would have dominated media coverage from Williamsburg to the east. Back then we had good media coverage from Richmond also. When the TV money started coming in during the 80s and 90s we would have had significant revenue boosts from that. I believe that we would have dominated recruiting in the 757.

Basketball was already turnkey. As we all know, Kaplan needs a facelift, but it was state of the art 50 years ago when it opened. We already had good home and home scheduling, and we could fill it up when the big name teams came to town. ACC would have given us sell outs or close for most home games. ODU was still D2 in hoops.

Now for the contraversial part. William and Mary has not always been a pilar of academia. My guess is that if Pascal would have continued and when another pro-athlete/sports president came it, we would have been just like every other school who bends the admission standards for athletes. The extra ACC money, especially TV revenue, and Bowl appearances would have allowed for student expansion, more academic programs, and who knows what else.

The College is very, very different now than it was in 1970s and 80s. I personally, would like to get back to where we may have come from. I think Huge and Rowe understand how athletics and be a spring board to bigger and better things across the university. I just hope we don't fall flat on our faces along the journey. Rowe has some other ideas that are very progressive in how to scale the student body at low cost outlays, and it will be very controversial to some alumni also.
01-20-2020 09:34 AM
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wmmii Offline
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Post: #42
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
(01-20-2020 09:34 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Just a few notes about how it may have progressed.

For football, we would have needed an upgraded stadium. I don't think we would have had a lot of trouble filling it up. Back then Tribe fans came regularly from the Penninsula, Norfolk, VA Beach. ODU didn't have football and there was demand. We would have dominated media coverage from Williamsburg to the east. Back then we had good media coverage from Richmond also. When the TV money started coming in during the 80s and 90s we would have had significant revenue boosts from that. I believe that we would have dominated recruiting in the 757.

Basketball was already turnkey. As we all know, Kaplan needs a facelift, but it was state of the art 50 years ago when it opened. We already had good home and home scheduling, and we could fill it up when the big name teams came to town. ACC would have given us sell outs or close for most home games. ODU was still D2 in hoops.

Now for the contraversial part. William and Mary has not always been a pilar of academia. My guess is that if Pascal would have continued and when another pro-athlete/sports president came it, we would have been just like every other school who bends the admission standards for athletes. The extra ACC money, especially TV revenue, and Bowl appearances would have allowed for student expansion, more academic programs, and who knows what else.

The College is very, very different now than it was in 1970s and 80s. I personally, would like to get back to where we may have come from. I think Huge and Rowe understand how athletics and be a spring board to bigger and better things across the university. I just hope we don't fall flat on our faces along the journey. Rowe has some other ideas that are very progressive in how to scale the student body at low cost outlays, and it will be very controversial to some alumni also.

All good points, as additional folklore on this we had a potential donor lined up to fund part of a new stadium off campus in the early 1970's from the owner of the Williamsburg Pottery but significant opposition by the faculty and local press killed any progress in it combined with lack of Presidential support.

Agree that President Rowe and the AD are on a new path toward greater commitment towards BB and football.
(This post was last modified: 01-20-2020 02:02 PM by wmmii.)
01-20-2020 02:01 PM
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TribeDeac Offline
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Post: #43
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
(01-20-2020 02:01 PM)wmmii Wrote:  
(01-20-2020 09:34 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Just a few notes about how it may have progressed.

For football, we would have needed an upgraded stadium. I don't think we would have had a lot of trouble filling it up. Back then Tribe fans came regularly from the Penninsula, Norfolk, VA Beach. ODU didn't have football and there was demand. We would have dominated media coverage from Williamsburg to the east. Back then we had good media coverage from Richmond also. When the TV money started coming in during the 80s and 90s we would have had significant revenue boosts from that. I believe that we would have dominated recruiting in the 757.

Basketball was already turnkey. As we all know, Kaplan needs a facelift, but it was state of the art 50 years ago when it opened. We already had good home and home scheduling, and we could fill it up when the big name teams came to town. ACC would have given us sell outs or close for most home games. ODU was still D2 in hoops.

Now for the contraversial part. William and Mary has not always been a pilar of academia. My guess is that if Pascal would have continued and when another pro-athlete/sports president came it, we would have been just like every other school who bends the admission standards for athletes. The extra ACC money, especially TV revenue, and Bowl appearances would have allowed for student expansion, more academic programs, and who knows what else.

The College is very, very different now than it was in 1970s and 80s. I personally, would like to get back to where we may have come from. I think Huge and Rowe understand how athletics and be a spring board to bigger and better things across the university. I just hope we don't fall flat on our faces along the journey. Rowe has some other ideas that are very progressive in how to scale the student body at low cost outlays, and it will be very controversial to some alumni also.

All good points, as additional folklore on this we had a potential donor lined up to fund part of a new stadium off campus in the early 1970's from the owner of the Williamsburg Pottery but significant opposition by the faculty and local press killed any progress in it combined with lack of Presidential support.

Agree that President Rowe and the AD are on a new path toward greater commitment towards BB and football.

I agree with this post. Difficulty is that the football boat has sailed, no ability to go D1, just hope that we can become a relevant FCS program again. Basketball is the big challenge for us. Richmond, ODU, and VCU, our historical rivals, are in far superior conferences with better TV contracts and relevance. They will not even play home and home with us because they don't need too. Even Davidson with 1500 students plays in a far better conference and has routinely been to the NCAA. We had significant leadership issues in the past that put us where we are. Duke, Wake, and Davidson are also as strong or better academically than we are. No easy answers here.
01-20-2020 09:57 PM
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GoTribe70 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
(01-20-2020 09:57 PM)TribeDeac Wrote:  
(01-20-2020 02:01 PM)wmmii Wrote:  
(01-20-2020 09:34 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Just a few notes about how it may have progressed.

For football, we would have needed an upgraded stadium. I don't think we would have had a lot of trouble filling it up. Back then Tribe fans came regularly from the Penninsula, Norfolk, VA Beach. ODU didn't have football and there was demand. We would have dominated media coverage from Williamsburg to the east. Back then we had good media coverage from Richmond also. When the TV money started coming in during the 80s and 90s we would have had significant revenue boosts from that. I believe that we would have dominated recruiting in the 757.

Basketball was already turnkey. As we all know, Kaplan needs a facelift, but it was state of the art 50 years ago when it opened. We already had good home and home scheduling, and we could fill it up when the big name teams came to town. ACC would have given us sell outs or close for most home games. ODU was still D2 in hoops.

Now for the contraversial part. William and Mary has not always been a pilar of academia. My guess is that if Pascal would have continued and when another pro-athlete/sports president came it, we would have been just like every other school who bends the admission standards for athletes. The extra ACC money, especially TV revenue, and Bowl appearances would have allowed for student expansion, more academic programs, and who knows what else.

The College is very, very different now than it was in 1970s and 80s. I personally, would like to get back to where we may have come from. I think Huge and Rowe understand how athletics and be a spring board to bigger and better things across the university. I just hope we don't fall flat on our faces along the journey. Rowe has some other ideas that are very progressive in how to scale the student body at low cost outlays, and it will be very controversial to some alumni also.

All good points, as additional folklore on this we had a potential donor lined up to fund part of a new stadium off campus in the early 1970's from the owner of the Williamsburg Pottery but significant opposition by the faculty and local press killed any progress in it combined with lack of Presidential support.


Agree that President Rowe and the AD are on a new path toward greater commitment towards BB and football.

I agree with this post. Difficulty is that the football boat has sailed, no ability to go D1, just hope that we can become a relevant FCS program again. Basketball is the big challenge for us. Richmond, ODU, and VCU, our historical rivals, are in far superior conferences with better TV contracts and relevance. They will not even play home and home with us because they don't need too. Even Davidson with 1500 students plays in a far better conference and has routinely been to the NCAA. We had significant leadership issues in the past that put us where we are. Duke, Wake, and Davidson are also as strong or better academically than we are. No easy answers here.
Can you elaborate on what are Huge's plans "to scale" the student body?
01-21-2020 09:01 AM
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Tribe1693 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
(01-20-2020 09:57 PM)TribeDeac Wrote:  I agree with this post. Difficulty is that the football boat has sailed, no ability to go D1, just hope that we can become a relevant FCS program again. Basketball is the big challenge for us. Richmond, ODU, and VCU, our historical rivals, are in far superior conferences with better TV contracts and relevance. They will not even play home and home with us because they don't need too. Even Davidson with 1500 students plays in a far better conference and has routinely been to the NCAA. We had significant leadership issues in the past that put us where we are. Duke, Wake, and Davidson are also as strong or better academically than we are. No easy answers here.

We are "D1" in football...as we are in all sports.
01-21-2020 09:17 AM
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nogretheogre Offline
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Post: #46
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
No ability to go P5 was probably the intended word choice. I would like to position ourselves to be not only competitive at FCS, but be ready for the inevitable reorganization of D1 that should be coming in the near future. We dont want them to push us to D2 when they merge the G5 and FCS.
01-21-2020 09:19 AM
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wrnbldg Offline
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Post: #47
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
(01-21-2020 09:17 AM)Tribe1693 Wrote:  
(01-20-2020 09:57 PM)TribeDeac Wrote:  I agree with this post. Difficulty is that the football boat has sailed, no ability to go D1, just hope that we can become a relevant FCS program again. Basketball is the big challenge for us. Richmond, ODU, and VCU, our historical rivals, are in far superior conferences with better TV contracts and relevance. They will not even play home and home with us because they don't need too. Even Davidson with 1500 students plays in a far better conference and has routinely been to the NCAA. We had significant leadership issues in the past that put us where we are. Duke, Wake, and Davidson are also as strong or better academically than we are. No easy answers here.

We are "D1" in football...as we are in all sports.

You beat me to the punch in pointing this out. It gets irritating explaining to outsiders we are DI in all sports, including football. I shouldn't have to explain it to posters on the school's message board.
01-21-2020 12:50 PM
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TribeDeac Offline
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Post: #48
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
(01-21-2020 12:50 PM)wrnbldg Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 09:17 AM)Tribe1693 Wrote:  
(01-20-2020 09:57 PM)TribeDeac Wrote:  I agree with this post. Difficulty is that the football boat has sailed, no ability to go D1, just hope that we can become a relevant FCS program again. Basketball is the big challenge for us. Richmond, ODU, and VCU, our historical rivals, are in far superior conferences with better TV contracts and relevance. They will not even play home and home with us because they don't need too. Even Davidson with 1500 students plays in a far better conference and has routinely been to the NCAA. We had significant leadership issues in the past that put us where we are. Duke, Wake, and Davidson are also as strong or better academically than we are. No easy answers here.

We are "D1" in football...as we are in all sports.

You beat me to the punch in pointing this out. It gets irritating explaining to outsiders we are DI in all sports, including football. I shouldn't have to explain it to posters on the school's message board.

Poor choice of words on my part, I have followed WM football since 1967, and know very well that we are D1 FCS.. However, since FBS teams are only allowed to count one FCS win per year in their bowl calculations, the point is the same.
01-21-2020 10:50 PM
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wmmii Offline
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Post: #49
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
Our goal should be to join the A10 and stay in the CAA for football. Our recent natural rivals in BB are VCU, Richmond, and GMU with Davidson and George Washington being former rivals.

To do this we need to show the A10 we will help and not hurt their NET. It will take a revamped arena, 2-3 NCAA bids in MBB, NCAA sweet sixteen MBB and 5 years.
01-25-2020 11:14 AM
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mrjoolius Offline
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Post: #50
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
(01-25-2020 11:14 AM)wmmii Wrote:  Our goal should be to join the A10 and stay in the CAA for football. Our recent natural rivals in BB are VCU, Richmond, and GMU with Davidson and George Washington being former rivals.

To do this we need to show the A10 we will help and not hurt their NET. It will take a revamped arena, 2-3 NCAA bids in MBB, NCAA sweet sixteen MBB and 5 years.
Kinda agree. A10 isn't coming calling unless we demonstrate the ability to consistently bring money, ie. tournament bids to the conference. One stellar year every 5 or 6 isn't going to do it. If Dane is bringing in stud classes and we are consistently either knocking on the door or getting in, maybe there is a conversation. Of course, if that is happening, the bigger challenge will be keeping Dane here as the coach. There are certainly worse problems to have. Maybe he sticks around.

All it takes is timing and to catch lightning. Without Bob Mckillop (and Curry didn't hurt), Davidson would be a Big South team. Without the magical run by GMU, they would still be a CAA school. If Shaka bolts with his early success, VCU probably would still be a CAA school too.
(This post was last modified: 01-25-2020 11:38 AM by mrjoolius.)
01-25-2020 11:29 AM
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wmmii Offline
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Post: #51
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
(01-25-2020 11:29 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Of course, if that is happening, the bigger challenge will be keeping Dane here as the coach. There are certainly worse problems to have.

It depends on which model we follow. If we follow the Richmond approach and spend 1M+ for our MBB HC then we could keep Dane, otherwise Dane would move up if his success can be continued the next 2 seasons. The other approach is the VCU model to be an incubator for future P5 coaching but this is dependent on the AD and President continued good choices like Dane.
01-25-2020 11:44 AM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #52
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
Huge's strategy and that of others is to escalate basketball to a very high level. A10 may make sense, but staying in the CAA is probably not an option. Nobody ever mentioned this, but the Big East could be an option for hoops. I can't see us doing anything with football other than staying in the CAA.
01-25-2020 02:33 PM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #53
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
(01-25-2020 11:14 AM)wmmii Wrote:  Our goal should be to join the A10 and stay in the CAA for football. Our recent natural rivals in BB are VCU, Richmond, and GMU with Davidson and George Washington being former rivals.

To do this we need to show the A10 we will help and not hurt their NET. It will take a revamped arena, 2-3 NCAA bids in MBB, NCAA sweet sixteen MBB and 5 years.

If we win that much in five years then we won't need the A-10. We will be very competitive in the CAA and earning our share of bids.

We won't be joining the Big East. That is all Catholic schools now (except that they are readmitting UConn for old times sake and women's basketball).
01-25-2020 04:38 PM
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Tribe2011 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
(01-25-2020 02:33 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Huge's strategy and that of others is to escalate basketball to a very high level. A10 may make sense, but staying in the CAA is probably not an option. Nobody ever mentioned this, but the Big East could be an option for hoops. I can't see us doing anything with football other than staying in the CAA.

We've never been to the NCAA tourney and we've won our (low-level) conference exactly one time when we tied for the regular season title in 2015. Now we're joining the Big East, a conference with three top-15 teams?

We need to actually get to the winning part before we think about jumping ship from the CAA... Right now it's the perfect place for our program.
01-26-2020 10:27 AM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
(01-26-2020 10:27 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  
(01-25-2020 02:33 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Huge's strategy and that of others is to escalate basketball to a very high level. A10 may make sense, but staying in the CAA is probably not an option. Nobody ever mentioned this, but the Big East could be an option for hoops. I can't see us doing anything with football other than staying in the CAA.

We've never been to the NCAA tourney and we've won our (low-level) conference exactly one time when we tied for the regular season title in 2015. Now we're joining the Big East, a conference with three top-15 teams?

We need to actually get to the winning part before we think about jumping ship from the CAA... Right now it's the perfect place for our program.

I think the time frame is 5-10 years, not right away. You are correct, that we need to actually do well in our current situation. I'm simply providing context given where Huge wants the program to go.
01-26-2020 02:18 PM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #56
RE: William & Mary & The ACC
(01-26-2020 02:18 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  
(01-26-2020 10:27 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  
(01-25-2020 02:33 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Huge's strategy and that of others is to escalate basketball to a very high level. A10 may make sense, but staying in the CAA is probably not an option. Nobody ever mentioned this, but the Big East could be an option for hoops. I can't see us doing anything with football other than staying in the CAA.

We've never been to the NCAA tourney and we've won our (low-level) conference exactly one time when we tied for the regular season title in 2015. Now we're joining the Big East, a conference with three top-15 teams?

We need to actually get to the winning part before we think about jumping ship from the CAA... Right now it's the perfect place for our program.

I think the time frame is 5-10 years, not right away. You are correct, that we need to actually do well in our current situation. I'm simply providing context given where Huge wants the program to go.

I explained in Post #53 above why W&M will NEVER be in the Big East, regardless of where Huge wants the program to go.
01-26-2020 02:54 PM
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