I read a comment that W&M declined an ACC invite in the 70’s. The only thing I could find was from Lou Holtz’s book: a former president of W&M wanted Holtz to build the football team in order to gain entry as the eighth member. Then that president left and the new guy wanted football deemphasized, so Holtz went to NC State.

Any historians have info on this?

(01-12-2020 11:42 PM)esayem Wrote:  I read a comment that W&M declined an ACC invite in the 70’s. The only thing I could find was from Lou Holtz’s book: a former president of W&M wanted Holtz to build the football team in order to gain entry as the eighth member. Then that president left and the new guy wanted football deemphasized, so Holtz went to NC State.

Any historians have info on this?

The main William & Mary board is on this site. Try there? https://wm.csnbbs.com

(01-12-2020 11:42 PM)esayem Wrote:  I read a comment that W&M declined an ACC invite in the 70’s. The only thing I could find was from Lou Holtz’s book: a former president of W&M wanted Holtz to build the football team in order to gain entry as the eighth member. Then that president left and the new guy wanted football deemphasized, so Holtz went to NC State.

Any historians have info on this?

To say that W&M declined an invitation suggests that an invitation was offered. That's probably unlikely. At the time, the FBS/FCS split hadn't yet occurred, but the universe of independent schools that the ACC could have considered to return to 8 members was pretty large, and wouldn't have included W&M.

(01-13-2020 12:13 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(01-12-2020 11:42 PM)esayem Wrote:  I read a comment that W&M declined an ACC invite in the 70’s. The only thing I could find was from Lou Holtz’s book: a former president of W&M wanted Holtz to build the football team in order to gain entry as the eighth member. Then that president left and the new guy wanted football deemphasized, so Holtz went to NC State.

Any historians have info on this?

The main William & Mary board is on this site. Try there? https://wm.csnbbs.com

Good call.

(01-13-2020 08:57 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-12-2020 11:42 PM)esayem Wrote:  I read a comment that W&M declined an ACC invite in the 70’s. The only thing I could find was from Lou Holtz’s book: a former president of W&M wanted Holtz to build the football team in order to gain entry as the eighth member. Then that president left and the new guy wanted football deemphasized, so Holtz went to NC State.

Any historians have info on this?

To say that W&M declined an invitation suggests that an invitation was offered. That's probably unlikely. At the time, the FBS/FCS split hadn't yet occurred, but the universe of independent schools that the ACC could have considered to return to 8 members was pretty large, and wouldn't have included W&M.

That’s what I’m thinking. Maybe before the test score rule was dropped in the mid 70’s they had a shot.

William & Mary helped trigger the ACC exit from the Southern Conference. A massive football cheating scandal there caused the Virginia Legislature to put pressure on VT's President to do something about football. VT's President was the defacto SoCon Commissioner at the time.

That led to the bowl ban vote which pissed off MD, Clemson, and Duke.

W&M gained entry to the SoCon when Virginia left to become independent in 1936.

It was a mistake at the time.

1921 MD forms Southern Conference
1933 13 of the 23 schools leave to form SEC
1936 UVa decides to leave SoCon
1937 Now down to 9 schools, the SoCon votes to add little buddies Wake Forest, W&M, Richmond, Furman, etc.
1949 Shenanigans at W&M begin
1950 Smalls schools vote West Va into Conference
1952 Clemson and MD hit by bowl ban
1953 MD, Duke, Clemson, and SC decide to leave with UNC and NC State. NC State, Duke, and UNC request that WF come along. MD secretly meets with UVa to be the 8th school and rejoin the group.
1954 With UVa as the 8th, UVa, MD, Clemson, and SC block UNC's effort to invite VT on a 4-4 vote and West Va. dies for lack of a second.

(01-13-2020 09:07 AM)Statefan Wrote:  William & Mary helped trigger the ACC exit from the Southern Conference. A massive football cheating scandal there caused the Virginia Legislature to put pressure on VT's President to do something about football. VT's President was the defacto SoCon Commissioner at the time.

I read about that. Apparently in the 40’s, W&M was the dominant VA team.

W&M never received an invitation or a feeler from the ACC in the 1970's.

(01-13-2020 09:11 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 09:07 AM)Statefan Wrote:  William & Mary helped trigger the ACC exit from the Southern Conference. A massive football cheating scandal there caused the Virginia Legislature to put pressure on VT's President to do something about football. VT's President was the defacto SoCon Commissioner at the time.

I read about that. Apparently in the 40’s, W&M was the dominant VA team.

Read this:

https://wmsportsblog.com/2018/07/12/the-...l-of-1951/

This issue of coach as athletic director is mentioned in the article. This issue is fundamental to the early ACC and is a reason that South Carolina under Frank McGuire was pushed out. It was an issue when UNC related folks came after Jim Valvano at NC State when he was made AD. It was the reason Bill Dooley was pushed out of UNC as football coach - the open AD position.

As to the 40's, cheating was rampant at some ACC/SoCon schools. Choo Choo Justice at UNC was the highest paid football player in the US. MD hired Jim Tatum from Oklahoma to put football ahead of the University. And W&M perfected the small school model of effective cheating.

(01-13-2020 09:20 AM)Statefan Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 09:11 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 09:07 AM)Statefan Wrote:  William & Mary helped trigger the ACC exit from the Southern Conference. A massive football cheating scandal there caused the Virginia Legislature to put pressure on VT's President to do something about football. VT's President was the defacto SoCon Commissioner at the time.

I read about that. Apparently in the 40’s, W&M was the dominant VA team.

Read this:

https://wmsportsblog.com/2018/07/12/the-...l-of-1951/

This issue of coach as athletic director is mentioned in the article. This issue is fundamental to the early ACC and is a reason that South Carolina under Frank McGuire was pushed out. It was an issue when UNC related folks came after Jim Valvano at NC State when he was made AD. It was the reason Bill Dooley was pushed out of UNC as football coach - the open AD position.

As to the 40's, cheating was rampant at some ACC/SoCon schools. Choo Choo Justice at UNC was the highest paid football player in the US. MD hired Jim Tatum from Oklahoma to put football ahead of the University. And W&M perfected the small school model of effective cheating.

Whoa.

South Carolina wasn't pushed out of the conference. They left voluntarily. I didn't even remember that McGuire became AD at USC. If that was the case, it was a bad move for them since Frank McGuire was a world class jerk.

Valvano never should have even thought about becoming AD at NCSU. It was a terrible idea. Between his two jobs and numerous public speaking and promotional activities Valvano became grossly overextended. He didn't know how to say "no." Nobody set out to punish NCSU for making Valvano the AD. It was such a terrible decision that there were bound to be negative consequences.

I thought in the early days till at least the Bobby Dodd era football coach/ADs were common? What was the problem?

(01-13-2020 11:15 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  I thought in the early days till at least the Bobby Dodd era football coach/ADs were common? What was the problem?

Athletic departments at major schools became too big and too complex. Being a head coach became too demanding a job to permit doing much else.

To give an example of the change, Vic Bubas became head basketball coach at Duke in the early 1960s. He asked for a window AC unit for his office. Eddie Cameron, the AD at the time, the one that Cameron Indoor Stadium is named for, was incredulous. He told Bubas that nobody in the athletic department worked during the summer. Bubas bought his own AC unit and became an extremely successful head coach.

The college athletic world is vastly different now than it was 60 years ago. Even in the early 1960s it was changing rapidly.

(01-13-2020 09:45 AM)Hallcity Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 09:20 AM)Statefan Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 09:11 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 09:07 AM)Statefan Wrote:  William & Mary helped trigger the ACC exit from the Southern Conference. A massive football cheating scandal there caused the Virginia Legislature to put pressure on VT's President to do something about football. VT's President was the defacto SoCon Commissioner at the time.

I read about that. Apparently in the 40’s, W&M was the dominant VA team.

Read this:

https://wmsportsblog.com/2018/07/12/the-...l-of-1951/

This issue of coach as athletic director is mentioned in the article. This issue is fundamental to the early ACC and is a reason that South Carolina under Frank McGuire was pushed out. It was an issue when UNC related folks came after Jim Valvano at NC State when he was made AD. It was the reason Bill Dooley was pushed out of UNC as football coach - the open AD position.

As to the 40's, cheating was rampant at some ACC/SoCon schools. Choo Choo Justice at UNC was the highest paid football player in the US. MD hired Jim Tatum from Oklahoma to put football ahead of the University. And W&M perfected the small school model of effective cheating.

Whoa.

South Carolina wasn't pushed out of the conference. They left voluntarily. I didn't even remember that McGuire became AD at USC. If that was the case, it was a bad move for them since Frank McGuire was a world class jerk.

Valvano never should have even thought about becoming AD at NCSU. It was a terrible idea. Between his two jobs and numerous public speaking and promotional activities Valvano became grossly overextended. He didn't know how to say "no." Nobody set out to punish NCSU for making Valvano the AD. It was such a terrible decision that there were bound to be negative consequences.

"Is a reason" is not the same thing as "THE REASON".

The issue at SC with McGuire being his own boss was a huge problem for UNC and MD. Your 800 SAT Rule that nearly killed ACC football was another huge issue relative to SC. The determination of the ACC championship is basketball via Tournament was the third leg of that stool.

From SC's point of view UNC, Duke, and MD had all administratively pushed or supported policies that hurt SC on the football field and basketball court. Sandlapper Gamecocks being natural hotheads, they chose to leave the ACC, however if you don't understand that they felt "pushed out" you are not looking at it from their point of view.

(01-13-2020 11:15 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  I thought in the early days till at least the Bobby Dodd era football coach/ADs were common? What was the problem?

Garrett, the problem was that UNC hired Frank McGuire because NC State and Duke were handing UNC their head in basketball. McGuire attracted a certain element from the Northeast that was "unsavory". The 1961 point shaving scandal that attached itself to UNC and NC State had it's origin through McGuire and Northeast mobsters.

The UNC SYSTEM responded to the issue. After UNC-Ch let McGuire go, he then eventually shows back up at SC, and as his own boss. Carolina had a **** fit. MD didn't like it either.

A decade later when the AD's job opened at UNC, one of the reasons cited for not giving it to Bill Dooley was self supervision. Dooley left for VT. UNC hired Bill Cobey, the son of MD's former AD. When Valvano was elevated to AD that issue was at play in the background of the UNC SYSTEM, not the ACC as a whole. Of course one of the biggest beneficiaries of that decision turned out to be Duke.

There is an athletic side to these issues, but more often than not there are political, social, and business issues that are otherwise papered over or obfuscated.

(01-13-2020 11:15 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  I thought in the early days till at least the Bobby Dodd era football coach/ADs were common? What was the problem?

IIRC, it wasn't uncommon for the head football coach to be the AD even as recently as the late 70s / early 80s... but eventually that went away for 2 reasons:
1) too much power in one person (or lack of accountability if you prefer to word it that way)
2) the need to get more out of both of those jobs than one person could adequately do (i.e. productivity issues).

The size scope and breadth of athletic departments has only been a relentless march upward. Today's P5 football program employs more people than the entire athletic department did back in the 50's. It is too bureaucratic for one bureaucrat to manage.