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SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
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Garrettabc Offline
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Post: #1
SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
UConn felt that way so they are returning to the BE. Pitt also has not been the same since leaving the BE, so my question is this coincidence or is there some correlation?

I also remember BC had some very good teams in the first 3 years in the ACC and even a PoY, but steadily dropped off and never rebounded. ND I think had 1 good team since joining the ACC was always kinda middling in the BE like they are in the ACC.
01-06-2020 06:15 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #2
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
BC had Al Skinner in his prime, and his teams were quintessential tough Big East bruisers.

Maybe Jimmy B is slowing down. No clue, but his recruiting doesn’t seem the same. I know they’ve had a bunch of one and done guys.

Pitt seems to be on the way up after the last questionable hire.
01-06-2020 06:20 PM
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Hallcity Offline
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Post: #3
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
Don’t blame the ACC. Blame Boeheim for staying on too long. The transition may be no fun but it’s overdue.
01-06-2020 06:30 PM
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cuseroc Offline
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RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-06-2020 06:30 PM)Hallcity Wrote:  Don’t blame the ACC. Blame Boeheim for staying on too long. The transition may be no fun but it’s overdue.

As much as I love JB, I have to agree with this. SU's recruiting has been suffering ever since JB's top recruiter Mike Hopkins left. Io make matters worse, Hopkins has been stealing JB's lunch taking some top recruits from NYS. And those recruits are tearing it up in the Pac12.

Regarding Pitt, their descent started a couple of years before coming to the ACC.
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2020 07:09 PM by cuseroc.)
01-06-2020 07:06 PM
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ChrisLords Offline
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Post: #5
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
Hasn't Cuse been to 2 final fours since joining the ACC? They're doing alright.
01-06-2020 08:05 PM
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ArQ Offline
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RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-06-2020 08:05 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  Hasn't Cuse been to 2 final fours since joining the ACC? They're doing alright.

Cuse and UNC's downfall are related to NCAA sanctions. Very little impact from SU joining ACC. If SU had stayed in Big East, they would still be short-handed due to fewer scholarships.
01-06-2020 09:15 PM
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TexanMark Offline
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Post: #7
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
All of the above...plus throw in the negative recruiting (zone defense and Boeheim's imminent departure)

Crowds are down too... this team will be lucky to finish above .500%

Worst team in 50 years.
01-06-2020 09:23 PM
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cuseroc Offline
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RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-06-2020 09:15 PM)ArQ Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 08:05 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  Hasn't Cuse been to 2 final fours since joining the ACC? They're doing alright.

Cuse and UNC's downfall are related to NCAA sanctions. Very little impact from SU joining ACC. If SU had stayed in Big East, they would still be short-handed due to fewer scholarships.

SU has been playing with full scholarships this season and last season. But I agree that the reduced scholarships did hurt, along with too many one and dones. As Mark says there are just too many things working against Syracuse at once. JB getting old, NCAA sanctions, too many players jumping to the NBA when they are not ready, Mike Hopkins leaving, negative recruiting etc...
01-06-2020 09:37 PM
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XLance Online
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Post: #9
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
Tougher league.
01-07-2020 06:21 AM
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cuseroc Offline
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RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-07-2020 06:21 AM)XLance Wrote:  Tougher league.

That would explain how SU in its first season in the ACC went 25-0 before its first loss which never happened in the BE. How about ND, which never even got to the semi-finals in the BE tournament and wins the ACC tournament its first season in the ACC.
To be fair, I think the current ACC, with its current membership is every bit as tough as the former BE. But SU is nowhere near as good as it was when it played in the BE or its first season in the ACC.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2020 10:31 AM by cuseroc.)
01-07-2020 09:43 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #11
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-07-2020 09:43 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 06:21 AM)XLance Wrote:  Tougher league.

That would explain how SU in its first season in the ACC went 25-0 before its first loss which never happened in the BE. How about ND, which never even got to the semi-finals in the BE tournament and wins the ACC tournament its first season in the ACC.
To be fair, I think the current ACC, with its current membership is every bit as tough as the former BE. But SU is nowhere near as good as it was when it played in the BE or its first season in the ACC.

Agreed - the ACC is at most only a little tougher in MBB than the Big East was at its peak.

That said, SU used to play several games each year in and around NYC, which I'm sure helped recruiting. Philadelphia, too (Villanova) - another hotspot for MBB recruiting. How many players did the Orange get from those areas before, vs how many they get now?
01-07-2020 11:37 AM
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TerryD Online
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Post: #12
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-06-2020 06:15 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  UConn felt that way so they are returning to the BE. Pitt also has not been the same since leaving the BE, so my question is this coincidence or is there some correlation?

I also remember BC had some very good teams in the first 3 years in the ACC and even a PoY, but steadily dropped off and never rebounded. ND I think had 1 good team since joining the ACC was always kinda middling in the BE like they are in the ACC.


Close. ND had two Elite 8 finishes and won an ACC championship since joining the ACC.

Not too bad with 6 years in the league.
01-07-2020 12:20 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #13
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
Boeheim's decision to not retire when he said he would sealed Cuse's fate IMO. Had he just stepped down and let Hopkins take over the program as planned, the Orange wouldn't have skipped a beat. Legends staying past their expiration date rarely works out well for their school.
01-07-2020 12:58 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-07-2020 12:58 PM)ken d Wrote:  Boeheim's decision to not retire when he said he would sealed Cuse's fate IMO. Had he just stepped down and let Hopkins take over the program as planned, the Orange wouldn't have skipped a beat. Legends staying past their expiration date rarely works out well for their school.

Dean Smith retired at the right time. I couldn’t see him partaking in the one and done era.
01-07-2020 02:51 PM
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marleycard Offline
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Post: #15
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-07-2020 06:21 AM)XLance Wrote:  Tougher league.

LOL
01-07-2020 03:11 PM
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cuseroc Offline
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RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-07-2020 11:37 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 09:43 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 06:21 AM)XLance Wrote:  Tougher league.

That would explain how SU in its first season in the ACC went 25-0 before its first loss which never happened in the BE. How about ND, which never even got to the semi-finals in the BE tournament and wins the ACC tournament its first season in the ACC.
To be fair, I think the current ACC, with its current membership is every bit as tough as the former BE. But SU is nowhere near as good as it was when it played in the BE or its first season in the ACC.

Agreed - the ACC is at most only a little tougher in MBB than the Big East was at its peak.

LOL, I never said that
01-07-2020 03:28 PM
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cuseroc Offline
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RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-07-2020 02:51 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 12:58 PM)ken d Wrote:  Boeheim's decision to not retire when he said he would sealed Cuse's fate IMO. Had he just stepped down and let Hopkins take over the program as planned, the Orange wouldn't have skipped a beat. Legends staying past their expiration date rarely works out well for their school.

Dean Smith retired at the right time. I couldn’t see him partaking in the one and done era.

I seem to remember him having a couple bad seasons before he stepped down. Not losing seasons, just bad seasons according to UNC standards.
01-07-2020 04:02 PM
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ChrisLords Offline
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Post: #18
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-07-2020 04:02 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 02:51 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 12:58 PM)ken d Wrote:  Boeheim's decision to not retire when he said he would sealed Cuse's fate IMO. Had he just stepped down and let Hopkins take over the program as planned, the Orange wouldn't have skipped a beat. Legends staying past their expiration date rarely works out well for their school.

Dean Smith retired at the right time. I couldn’t see him partaking in the one and done era.

I seem to remember him having a couple bad seasons before he stepped down. Not losing seasons, just bad seasons according to UNC standards.

Maybe because four corners doesn't work with a shot clock.
01-07-2020 04:07 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #19
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
(01-07-2020 03:28 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 11:37 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 09:43 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(01-07-2020 06:21 AM)XLance Wrote:  Tougher league.

That would explain how SU in its first season in the ACC went 25-0 before its first loss which never happened in the BE. How about ND, which never even got to the semi-finals in the BE tournament and wins the ACC tournament its first season in the ACC.
To be fair, I think the current ACC, with its current membership is every bit as tough as the former BE. But SU is nowhere near as good as it was when it played in the BE or its first season in the ACC.

Agreed - the ACC is at most only a little tougher in MBB than the Big East was at its peak.

LOL, I never said that

Sorry, Cuseroc... I was agreeing to your statement in bold, then adding on to it (you said "every bit as tough" and I added "at most a little tougher" - I think the old Big East and the new ACC are comparable in hoops).
01-07-2020 05:58 PM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #20
RE: SU basketball suffering for abandoning the BE?
I can’t speak to the others but switching conferences definitely had an impact on Pitt basketball.

In fact, Jamie Dixon left because Pitt joined the ACC. Had that never happened, I have no doubt whatsoever that Dixon would still be the coach at Pitt.

Don’t get me wrong, Pitt still obviously made the right move. Dixon just has to get over it or move on to another school. He clearly chose the latter and I sincerely wish him well. He was always a class act here and I have nothing but nice things to say about him and the job he and Howland did in building this program.

However, Pitt basketball had become too dependent on New York City area kids to survive. Literally 75% of our roster were kids from Northern New Jersey or New York City. It honestly made our program what it was, which was a really good Big East basketball program during their time at Pitt. However, playing in the Garden multiple times per year was a really big draw to those kids. Playing in Greensboro, North Carolina is not. That is why Dixson left. He didn’t think he could recruit anywhere else on the eastern seaboard and he didn’t think kids from New York City had any interest in playing in a Southern-based conference.

Obviously, I strongly disagree with that assumption. I think lots of New York City area kids and really kids from all over the country would have interest in playing and what is generally considered the best league in college basketball. Also, and more importantly, there are lots of good basketball players everywhere – not just in New York City. Set up some recruiting bases in Atlanta and Washington DC and Philadelphia and Charlotte and you’ll be fine.

Still, that’s definitely what drove him out of Pitt. I have no doubt about that because we have mutual acquaintances and he has told them that directly several times. He was bitterly disappointed that Pitt left the Big East — which he thought was perfect for Pitt basketball — for the ACC. Again, that’s just how it goes. Football runs the show and we had to do that to save our football program no matter what.

As for the overall quality of the Big East versus the ACC, I would say they were pretty comparable. The Big East was really, really good and deep. However, the ACC is probably better because of North Carolina and Duke. I don’t know that the mid-level teams are quite as good as they were in the Big East, but the top teams are truly outstanding.

Still, and I know this ruffles people’s fathers, so I will only say it once, the tournament is no contest. As someone who has attended multiple of each, I can confidently tell you that the Big East tournament blows away the ACC tournament 10 out of 10 times. I do like that the ACC tournament is much cheaper to attend. That’s definitely a feather in its cap. Also, it’s a totally different vibe and it’s nice walking around sleepy Greensboro having waffles and what not. However, it’s only cheaper to attend because it’s inferior in literally every single way.

The ACC tournament is older, so you would think that would give it a tradition advantage. However, that’s even that is mitigated by the fact that Madison Square Garden is such a famously historic facility that you really feel like you are someplace very special while you are there. It’s just not even a contest between that experience and the Greensboro Coliseum.

As I said, that’s all water over the dam now. We are in the ACC now and we are never going back. However, you can still tell the truth about things and no fan who has experienced both tournaments is going to tell you that they prefer the ACC tournament to the Big East tournament. If they tell you that, they are lying to you or they hate things like electricity, excitement and fun.
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2020 10:00 AM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
01-08-2020 01:15 AM
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