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Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
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nole Offline
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Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
Clemson Revenue can't compete

Tigers’ gridiron team earned just $7.5 million in fiscal 2018

The three other playoff teams brought in over $55 million each

A number of factors explain the shortfall. Clemson, the smallest of the four schools, sold $24.9 million in tickets in 2018, the lowest total and less than half of Ohio State’s $59.3 million. The school also gets the smallest media payment of playoff teams, by virtue of playing in the Atlantic Coast Conference
12-28-2019 08:41 AM
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Garrettabc Online
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
I’d like to see the breakdown of the ticket math. Unless OSU sells their tickets for a bit more I’m not believing it.

The tv money disparity is beating a dead horse at this point.
12-28-2019 09:18 AM
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Hallcity Offline
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
So, what are these other schools doing with all that money? Building great teams in other sports? Supporting academic programs? Paying humongous salaries to administrators? Whatever they’re doing seems to have no visible effect. Their athletic programs aren’t more successful. Are we sure those numbers were compiled in the same way? How do we tell how much TV revenue Clemson football received from the ACC? I’ve never seen any breakdown of football versus basketball conference revenue
12-28-2019 10:33 AM
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ChrisLords Offline
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
(12-28-2019 08:41 AM)nole Wrote:  Clemson Revenue can't compete

Tigers’ gridiron team earned just $7.5 million in fiscal 2018

The three other playoff teams brought in over $55 million each

A number of factors explain the shortfall. Clemson, the smallest of the four schools, sold $24.9 million in tickets in 2018, the lowest total and less than half of Ohio State’s $59.3 million. The school also gets the smallest media payment of playoff teams, by virtue of playing in the Atlantic Coast Conference

Are these numbers slanted this way because donations are included in tOSU's numbers but since IPTAY is not part of the Athletic Department, it is not included in Clemson's numbers?
12-28-2019 11:37 AM
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nole Offline
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
I don't know the answers.

My two thoughts:

1) I think EVERY ACC schools needs to follow Clemsons lead. They know what they are doing. Learn from them (FSU included).

2) The ACC overall has a revenue issue. When does it get acknowledged....what are possible solutions? Simple ignoring won't work anymore.
12-28-2019 11:46 AM
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Statefan Offline
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
Clemson seats 81,500
OU seats 86,000
LSU seats 101,000
OSU seats 105,000

You can buy 2 season tickets at Clemson for just a $160 donation.
That price at Ohio State is $750.

Essentially an extra $55 per ticket at Ohio State compared to $11 a ticket at Clemson

That's $46 million to OSU on mandatory donations, minimum, compared to Clemson's $6 million.

Clemson has always charged reasonable prices.
12-28-2019 02:31 PM
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cuseroc Offline
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
(12-28-2019 11:46 AM)nole Wrote:  I don't know the answers.

My two thoughts:

1) I think EVERY ACC schools needs to follow Clemsons lead. They know what they are doing. Learn from them (FSU included).

2) The ACC overall has a revenue issue. When does it get acknowledged....what are possible solutions? Simple ignoring won't work anymore.

Its been acknowledged that the ACC has a revenue issue many times. When do some stop acting as though the sky is falling? Rather than panicking, some of us choose to wait and see how things work themselves out.

The article says that Clemson made $7.5 million in PROFIT, while a school like Oklahoma made $73.6 million in Profit. Thats a $66 million difference in profit.
The B12 tv deal is only $8-10 million more than the ACC. So even if Clemson and Oklahoma had the same amount in tv revenues, Clemson profit would still be dwarfed. So obviously, its about more than just tv revenue. As someone mentioned, it may be the difference in accounting methods.
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2019 02:58 PM by cuseroc.)
12-28-2019 02:56 PM
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Statefan Offline
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
(12-28-2019 02:56 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(12-28-2019 11:46 AM)nole Wrote:  I don't know the answers.

My two thoughts:

1) I think EVERY ACC schools needs to follow Clemsons lead. They know what they are doing. Learn from them (FSU included).

2) The ACC overall has a revenue issue. When does it get acknowledged....what are possible solutions? Simple ignoring won't work anymore.

Its been acknowledged that the ACC has a revenue issue many times. When do some stop acting as though the sky is falling? Rather than panicking, some of us choose to wait and see how things work themselves out.

The article says that Clemson made $7.5 million in PROFIT, while a school like Oklahoma made $73.6 million in Profit. Thats a $66 million difference in profit.
The B12 tv deal is only $8-10 million more than the ACC. So even if Clemson and Oklahoma had the same amount in tv revenues, Clemson profit would still be dwarfed. So obviously, its about more than just tv revenue. As someone mentioned, it may be the difference in accounting methods.

IPTAY does control the flow of booster money at Clemson. Their black bag is their black bag and Clemson just sponsors 17 programs. Ohio State is sponsoring about 35 sports and the football "profit" is plowed back into many of their non-revenue sports. Without 990's the article is hardly worth the breath it took to write it.

Just from a ticket to sell standpoint, LSU and OSU have 130-150K more tickets to sell on an annual basis.
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2019 08:00 PM by Statefan.)
12-28-2019 04:54 PM
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Indytarheel Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
(12-28-2019 10:33 AM)Hallcity Wrote:  So, what are these other schools doing with all that money? Building great teams in other sports? Supporting academic programs? Paying humongous salaries to administrators? Whatever they’re doing seems to have no visible effect. Their athletic programs aren’t more successful. Are we sure those numbers were compiled in the same way? How do we tell how much TV revenue Clemson football received from the ACC? I’ve never seen any breakdown of football versus basketball conference revenue

Why ask the questions? It is the same thing over and over again; yet, it is very interesting they never seem to be able to explain why the shortfall doesn't effect the outcome on the field. They have yet to demonstrate a correlation between success on the field versus TV revenue dollars etc. Hell, prior to Bowden retirement, if I am not mistaken, FSU nor Miami never brought in the cash compared to UF. Yet, FSU and Miami have more success on the football field than UF. Maybe it is something I am missing.
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2019 05:49 PM by Indytarheel.)
12-28-2019 05:46 PM
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Statefan Offline
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
(12-28-2019 05:46 PM)Indytarheel Wrote:  
(12-28-2019 10:33 AM)Hallcity Wrote:  So, what are these other schools doing with all that money? Building great teams in other sports? Supporting academic programs? Paying humongous salaries to administrators? Whatever they’re doing seems to have no visible effect. Their athletic programs aren’t more successful. Are we sure those numbers were compiled in the same way? How do we tell how much TV revenue Clemson football received from the ACC? I’ve never seen any breakdown of football versus basketball conference revenue

Why ask the questions? It is the same thing over and over again; yet, it is very interesting they never seem to be able to explain why the shortfall doesn't effect the outcome on the field. They have yet to demonstrate a correlation between success on the field versus TV revenue dollars etc. Hell, prior to Bowden retirement, if I am not mistaken, FSU nor Miami never brought in the cash compared to UF. Yet, FSU and Miami have more success on the football field than UF. Maybe it is something I am missing.

You have to be spending a certain amount to be in the game. Revenues are easily fungible and meaningless depending on accounting tricks. To be "in the game" you have to spend at least $40 million a year on football. How you get that money does not matter.

That's a tier - once you reach that competition tier additional spending is like chrome on a fire truck.

https://www.syracuse.com/orangefootball/..._rank.html

These numbers are 3 years old so factor in three years of some inflation - some payouts like at FSU, etc. -

1. Alabama 56 million spent
2. FSU 42
3. Auburn 42
4. ND 39
5. Georgia 39
6. Ohio State 37
7. Michigan 37
8. Penn State 36
9. Oklahoma 36
10. Clemson 35

This tier of spending is now at $40 million or more. In that tier, these 10 are competitive for the playoff, however as is natural some are in a slump (FSU and Auburn) and Michigan and Penn State can't get over the Ohio State bump in the road). This is the level you need to spend at to win a championship. Your other revenues fund the rest of your programs.
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2019 07:54 PM by Statefan.)
12-28-2019 07:40 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
(12-28-2019 02:31 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Clemson seats 81,500
OU seats 86,000
LSU seats 101,000
OSU seats 105,000

You can buy 2 season tickets at Clemson for just a $160 donation.
That price at Ohio State is $750.

Essentially an extra $55 per ticket at Ohio State compared to $11 a ticket at Clemson

That's $46 million to OSU on mandatory donations, minimum, compared to Clemson's $6 million.

Clemson has always charged reasonable prices.

Easier to sell high dollar tickets to high profile games against Michigan, Penn State, etc. than it is to games against everyone in the ACC except our rivals FSU and GT. It also helps when opposing fan bases travel to away games instead of always returning ticket allotments.
12-29-2019 01:38 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
Clemson and FSU need divisionless scheduling so they can play TRUE rivals every year (e.g. more FSU/VT) and big names (e.g. Clemson/Miami)
12-29-2019 11:43 AM
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Garrettabc Online
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
At one time FSU fans would whole heartedly agree with divisionless scheduling, but I think most of us are fine with the annual schedule. The whole conference does not need to revolve around what FSU wants. I think everybody in the Coastal division is also very content.
12-29-2019 12:17 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
(12-29-2019 12:17 PM)Garrettabc Wrote:  At one time FSU fans would whole heartedly agree with divisionless scheduling, but I think most of us are fine with the annual schedule. The whole conference does not need to revolve around what FSU wants. I think everybody in the Coastal division is also very content.

Of course the Coastal teams like the status quo. The Coastal Division is nothing but a den of mediocrity so you don’t have to be good to win it.
12-29-2019 12:22 PM
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
Based on recruiting the Coastal is going to look a lot like the late 90s in another two years or so. With the exception of Cavman. I'm a firm non-believer in Bronco at UVA.
12-29-2019 02:30 PM
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
(12-29-2019 01:38 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(12-28-2019 02:31 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Clemson seats 81,500
OU seats 86,000
LSU seats 101,000
OSU seats 105,000

You can buy 2 season tickets at Clemson for just a $160 donation.
That price at Ohio State is $750.

Essentially an extra $55 per ticket at Ohio State compared to $11 a ticket at Clemson

That's $46 million to OSU on mandatory donations, minimum, compared to Clemson's $6 million.

Clemson has always charged reasonable prices.

Easier to sell high dollar tickets to high profile games against Michigan, Penn State, etc. than it is to games against everyone in the ACC except our rivals FSU and GT. It also helps when opposing fan bases travel to away games instead of always returning ticket allotments.

Ticket allotments are about 4,000 in the ACC. Most schools don't mind the return of allotted tickets if they have demand at their own venues, so that they can re-sell the tickets to their own fans.

Generally allotted tickets are not good seats. With the popularity of ticket services like Stub-Hub it is easier to find better views of the field using an outside ticket service rather than buying tickets through your own school for away games. Plus you can often find parking too, for schools where good parking is hard to locate in advance.
(This post was last modified: 12-29-2019 03:06 PM by XLance.)
12-29-2019 02:57 PM
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
(12-28-2019 05:46 PM)Indytarheel Wrote:  
(12-28-2019 10:33 AM)Hallcity Wrote:  So, what are these other schools doing with all that money? Building great teams in other sports? Supporting academic programs? Paying humongous salaries to administrators? Whatever they’re doing seems to have no visible effect. Their athletic programs aren’t more successful. Are we sure those numbers were compiled in the same way? How do we tell how much TV revenue Clemson football received from the ACC? I’ve never seen any breakdown of football versus basketball conference revenue

Why ask the questions? It is the same thing over and over again; yet, it is very interesting they never seem to be able to explain why the shortfall doesn't effect the outcome on the field. They have yet to demonstrate a correlation between success on the field versus TV revenue dollars etc. Hell, prior to Bowden retirement, if I am not mistaken, FSU nor Miami never brought in the cash compared to UF. Yet, FSU and Miami have more success on the football field than UF. Maybe it is something I am missing.

If you have $50 million dollars, and that's what's needed to field a competitive football team, what happens if the other guy has $100 million? If he plates the weights in the gym with gold, will that make his players play better? If the players he recruits can't take any of that gold home with them, will he sign better players?

Whatever Clemson has, it's obviously enough. Why do you need more than enough?
12-29-2019 04:25 PM
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esayem Online
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
(12-29-2019 04:25 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(12-28-2019 05:46 PM)Indytarheel Wrote:  
(12-28-2019 10:33 AM)Hallcity Wrote:  So, what are these other schools doing with all that money? Building great teams in other sports? Supporting academic programs? Paying humongous salaries to administrators? Whatever they’re doing seems to have no visible effect. Their athletic programs aren’t more successful. Are we sure those numbers were compiled in the same way? How do we tell how much TV revenue Clemson football received from the ACC? I’ve never seen any breakdown of football versus basketball conference revenue

Why ask the questions? It is the same thing over and over again; yet, it is very interesting they never seem to be able to explain why the shortfall doesn't effect the outcome on the field. They have yet to demonstrate a correlation between success on the field versus TV revenue dollars etc. Hell, prior to Bowden retirement, if I am not mistaken, FSU nor Miami never brought in the cash compared to UF. Yet, FSU and Miami have more success on the football field than UF. Maybe it is something I am missing.

If you have $50 million dollars, and that's what's needed to field a competitive football team, what happens if the other guy has $100 million? If he plates the weights in the gym with gold, will that make his players play better? If the players he recruits can't take any of that gold home with them, will he sign better players?

Whatever Clemson has, it's obviously enough. Why do you need more than enough?

Right on.
12-29-2019 05:02 PM
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Garrettabc Online
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
It mostly comes down to rising coaches salaries. But I’m not as worried about the money disparity as much as some. FSU will remain competitive because of geography and it’s brand is still strong. Florida residents also don’t pay state income taxes which is kinda big deal to multi-millionaires.
12-29-2019 05:13 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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RE: Clemson Football Wins on the Field But Can’t Compete on Profit
(12-29-2019 02:57 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(12-29-2019 01:38 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(12-28-2019 02:31 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Clemson seats 81,500
OU seats 86,000
LSU seats 101,000
OSU seats 105,000

You can buy 2 season tickets at Clemson for just a $160 donation.
That price at Ohio State is $750.

Essentially an extra $55 per ticket at Ohio State compared to $11 a ticket at Clemson

That's $46 million to OSU on mandatory donations, minimum, compared to Clemson's $6 million.

Clemson has always charged reasonable prices.

Easier to sell high dollar tickets to high profile games against Michigan, Penn State, etc. than it is to games against everyone in the ACC except our rivals FSU and GT. It also helps when opposing fan bases travel to away games instead of always returning ticket allotments.

Ticket allotments are about 4,000 in the ACC. Most schools don't mind the return of allotted tickets if they have demand at their own venues, so that they can re-sell the tickets to their own fans.

Generally allotted tickets are not good seats. With the popularity of ticket services like Stub-Hub it is easier to find better views of the field using an outside ticket service rather than buying tickets through your own school for away games. Plus you can often find parking too, for schools where good parking is hard to locate in advance.

I’ve been to every UNC trip to Death Valley since the late 1970s. Unless the UNC fans were wearing orange they aren’t buying tickets off the secondary market either.
12-29-2019 05:30 PM
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