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Richard Jewell
https://thefederalist.com/2019/12/17/ric...esh-today/

Clint Eastwood's new film is out on the falsely accused man in the Olympic Park bombing in 1996.

"...The film’s message isn’t so much that neither is to be trusted, but for Americans to ask themselves why they should trust either institution. As “Jewell’s” Oscar-nominated screenwriter Billy Ray explained, “You have to stop thinking about the FBI and the media as institutions. The FBI and the media are groups of people who are stewards of institutions. And those people can have good or bad judgement, good or bad intentions.”

That message was relevant in 1996. It remains relevant today...."
12-19-2019 02:52 PM
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THE NC Herd Fan Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Richard Jewell
Jewell never really recovered from the horrendous accusations and that likely drove him to an early grave.
12-20-2019 09:36 PM
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B_Hawk06 Offline
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Richard Jewell
I’m excited to see this movie as well. Looks well done.


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12-20-2019 09:44 PM
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chess Offline
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RE: Richard Jewell
This is an excellent film. I recommend.
12-20-2019 10:09 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Richard Jewell
They needed a scapegoat so as not to look like the incompetent fools they were so they trashed a helpless innocent man to cover their own asses. 1996 should have been a huge red flag for our systemic failures to deal with terrorism and if it had been heeded perhaps we wouldn't have been so incompetent on 9/11. But our need to deny the Saudi presence in global terrorism sure as hell has led us into some colossal denials and a perpetual state of delusion with regard to the reality of the threat of Islam.
12-20-2019 11:22 PM
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TigerBlue4Ever Offline
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RE: Richard Jewell
(12-20-2019 11:22 PM)JRsec Wrote:  They needed a scapegoat so as not to look like the incompetent fools they were so they trashed a helpless innocent man to cover their own asses. 1996 should have been a huge red flag for our systemic failures to deal with terrorism and if it had been heeded perhaps we wouldn't have been so incompetent on 9/11. But our need to deny the Saudi presence in global terrorism sure as hell has led us into some colossal denials and a perpetual state of delusion with regard to the reality of the threat of Islam.

12-21-2019 04:28 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: Richard Jewell
(12-20-2019 11:22 PM)JRsec Wrote:  They needed a scapegoat so as not to look like the incompetent fools they were so they trashed a helpless innocent man to cover their own asses. 1996 should have been a huge red flag for our systemic failures to deal with terrorism and if it had been heeded perhaps we wouldn't have been so incompetent on 9/11. But our need to deny the Saudi presence in global terrorism sure as hell has led us into some colossal denials and a perpetual state of delusion with regard to the reality of the threat of Islam.

The "Saudi presence in global terrorism" is a bit of a complicated issue. You have to understand what is going on in the Middle East. Americans view it in far too simplistic terms, that it's a bunch of "ragheads" that are all evil.

In reality there are a number of competing interests. Saudis are Arab (Semitic), primarily Sunni, Muslims. Iraq is primarily Arab Shia Muslims, Iran is Aryan Shia Mislims. There is a sizable Sunni minority (along with a Kurd minority) in present-day Iraq. There is actually a Sunni majority in Syria, although Assad and the government, and most Syrians along the Mediterranean coast, are Shia (Alawite sect). Additionally, Iran has long-held ambitions to restore the ancient Persian Empire, from Kabul to Aden to Cairo to Istanbul. That makes them an existential threat to every Arab nation.

The Saudis openly support Sunni minorities in Iraq and Iran, and the Sunni majority in Syria. Because those groups are out of power, they fell that they must resort to terrorist activities to advance their cause.

There are two big problems:
1) I medieval times, the trade routes to the Orient were overland through Arab country. This made the Arab world very wealthy, very forward thinking in scientfic development, and fairly important in world affairs. Just before 1500, Dias and da Gama found the way around the Cape of Good Hope, ultimately to India, and all of a sudden the Mideast lost its importance for about 400 years. During that period it declined, culminating in the fall of the corrupt Ottoman Empire in WWI. At about the same time, oil was discovered throughout the area, and they suddenly became very important to the world economy again. So you have a tremendous amount of economic influence being wielded by institutions that are holdovers from a period when the region was basically an obscure backwater that didn't matter.
2) After WWI, the allies partitioned the old Ottoman Empire. They tended to draw straight lines without regard to ethnic or religious groupings. France got Syria (including Lebanon) as a mandate, and was supposed to get northern Iraq, but the Brits prevailed at San Remo, and they got mandates over Palestine, Trans-Jordan, and Iraq. What needs to happen in order to give peace a chance is that borders need to be redrawn. Crazy Joe had one good idea (even a stopped clock is right twice a day) in that after the fall of Saddam, Iraq should have been partitioned into an independent Kurdistan in the north, Shia Mesopotamia in the east, and Sunni Iraq in the west. That is still the way it should be done. The Turks don't want that, because they have a significant Kurdish minority in the east, but that could be handled. If we make Kurdistan big enough (and it has a lot of oil) then a lot of the Turkish Kurds would presumably migrate to their homeland, and that eases Turkey's problem. Syria also needs to be partitioned into Sunni east and Shia west. If we had split Iraq that way after the fall of Saddam, and had left the Baathists in power in Sunni Iraq, they would have banded with the Sunnis in eastern Syria, and probably brought about the partition of Syria. As far as Israel and the Palestinians, there is no workable two-state solution within the current footprint of Israel What needs to happen is the creation of a separate Palestinian state somewhere. My thought is Sinai (their true ancestral home), which Egypt owns but can't control, and Egypt needs a huge economic boost. So let them keep the canal and adequate land as a buffer on each side, build the Qattara Depression project that they want, give them a bunch of money, and create a Palestinian state in central Sinai (it has oil and considerable tourism appeal because of dive sites int he Red Sea, so it has far more economic viability than either West Bank or Gaza). Give Palestine all of Sinai between 33E and 34E, and give Israel everything east of 34E, which gives them control of the west side of the Gulf of Aqaba, down to Sharm al-Sheikh (which is strategically valuable to them), and also keeps the Palestinians further away from Dimona, site of their version of the Manhattan Project. Do that and add the Tom Clancy idea of Jerusalem as an international city in exchange for recognition of Israel's right to exist, and you'd have a framework within which a peaceful Mideast would be possible. It costs a lot of money to bribe everybody to make it happen, but we've killed and maimed a bunch of our 20-somethings trying to protect a status quo that simply can't and won't work.
12-21-2019 11:02 AM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Richard Jewell
(12-21-2019 11:02 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-20-2019 11:22 PM)JRsec Wrote:  They needed a scapegoat so as not to look like the incompetent fools they were so they trashed a helpless innocent man to cover their own asses. 1996 should have been a huge red flag for our systemic failures to deal with terrorism and if it had been heeded perhaps we wouldn't have been so incompetent on 9/11. But our need to deny the Saudi presence in global terrorism sure as hell has led us into some colossal denials and a perpetual state of delusion with regard to the reality of the threat of Islam.

The "Saudi presence in global terrorism" is a bit of a complicated issue. You have to understand what is going on in the Middle East. Americans view it in far too simplistic terms, that it's a bunch of "ragheads" that are all evil.

In reality there are a number of competing interests. Saudis are Arab (Semitic), primarily Sunni, Muslims. Iraq is primarily Arab Shia Muslims, Iran is Aryan Shia Mislims. There is a sizable Sunni minority (along with a Kurd minority) in present-day Iraq. There is actually a Sunni majority in Syria, although Assad and the government, and most Syrians along the Mediterranean coast, are Shia (Alawite sect). Additionally, Iran has long-held ambitions to restore the ancient Persian Empire, from Kabul to Aden to Cairo to Istanbul. That makes them an existential threat to every Arab nation.

The Saudis openly support Sunni minorities in Iraq and Iran, and the Sunni majority in Syria. Because those groups are out of power, they fell that they must resort to terrorist activities to advance their cause.

There are two big problems:
1) I medieval times, the trade routes to the Orient were overland through Arab country. This made the Arab world very wealthy, very forward thinking in scientfic development, and fairly important in world affairs. Just before 1500, Dias and da Gama found the way around the Cape of Good Hope, ultimately to India, and all of a sudden the Mideast lost its importance for about 400 years. During that period it declined, culminating in the fall of the corrupt Ottoman Empire in WWI. At about the same time, oil was discovered throughout the area, and they suddenly became very important to the world economy again. So you have a tremendous amount of economic influence being wielded by institutions that are holdovers from a period when the region was basically an obscure backwater that didn't matter.
2) After WWI, the allies partitioned the old Ottoman Empire. They tended to draw straight lines without regard to ethnic or religious groupings. France got Syria (including Lebanon) as a mandate, and was supposed to get northern Iraq, but the Brits prevailed at San Remo, and they got mandates over Palestine, Trans-Jordan, and Iraq. What needs to happen in order to give peace a chance is that borders need to be redrawn. Crazy Joe had one good idea (even a stopped clock is right twice a day) in that after the fall of Saddam, Iraq should have been partitioned into an independent Kurdistan in the north, Shia Mesopotamia in the east, and Sunni Iraq in the west. That is still the way it should be done. The Turks don't want that, because they have a significant Kurdish minority in the east, but that could be handled. If we make Kurdistan big enough (and it has a lot of oil) then a lot of the Turkish Kurds would presumably migrate to their homeland, and that eases Turkey's problem. Syria also needs to be partitioned into Sunni east and Shia west. If we had split Iraq that way after the fall of Saddam, and had left the Baathists in power in Sunni Iraq, they would have banded with the Sunnis in eastern Syria, and probably brought about the partition of Syria. As far as Israel and the Palestinians, there is no workable two-state solution within the current footprint of Israel What needs to happen is the creation of a separate Palestinian state somewhere. My thought is Sinai (their true ancestral home), which Egypt owns but can't control, and Egypt needs a huge economic boost. So let them keep the canal and adequate land as a buffer on each side, build the Qattara Depression project that they want, give them a bunch of money, and create a Palestinian state in central Sinai (it has oil and considerable tourism appeal because of dive sites int he Red Sea, so it has far more economic viability than either West Bank or Gaza). Give Palestine all of Sinai between 33E and 34E, and give Israel everything east of 34E, which gives them control of the west side of the Gulf of Aqaba, down to Sharm al-Sheikh (which is strategically valuable to them), and also keeps the Palestinians further away from Dimona, site of their version of the Manhattan Project. Do that and add the Tom Clancy idea of Jerusalem as an international city in exchange for recognition of Israel's right to exist, and you'd have a framework within which a peaceful Mideast would be possible. It costs a lot of money to bribe everybody to make it happen, but we've killed and maimed a bunch of our 20-somethings trying to protect a status quo that simply can't and won't work.

That is all factually correct, but functionally irrelevant Owl. With the US pulling up stakes, The Middle East is about to devolve into a Saudi / Iran conflict with Iraq as the battleground. While people might root for the Kurds, no one is going to put any effort into defending them.

And since you mentioned fantasy solutions to the Palestine problem, mine is invite the Israelis to immigrate to the US.
12-22-2019 04:34 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: Richard Jewell
(12-22-2019 04:34 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  That is all factually correct, but functionally irrelevant Owl. With the US pulling up stakes, The Middle East is about to devolve into a Saudi / Iran conflict with Iraq as the battleground. While people might root for the Kurds, no one is going to put any effort into defending them.
And since you mentioned fantasy solutions to the Palestine problem, mine is invite the Israelis to immigrate to the US.

And in that Saudi/Iran conflict, the Obama administration placed us firmly on the side of Iran. We've backed off that now, I think.

As for my idea, I think it was doable 15-20 years ago, but we didn't do it, for whatever reason, I'll let you speculate on that. I tend to think it was because we let ourselves get involved in Iraq without having any idea WTF we were trying to accomplish. If there was ever any justifiable reason for us to be in the Mideast for anything approaching an extended period of time, it would have to be that we had some plan to make it all align the way it needed to. We obviously didn't, and we sure killed and maimed a lot of our own people proving that we didn't. Is it doable today, I have no idea. But if there were any justification for our being there, it would have to be in order to accomplish some rational objective. And without that, we need to GTFO and stay TFO, and do it ASAP.

I remember sitting around with British and American officers and CIA types, having a few beers in Bahrain or somewhere, and discussing whether we should support Israel, Iran, or the Arabs in the battle to the death that we all saw coming. I still don't have that fully resolved in my mind.
(This post was last modified: 12-22-2019 03:11 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-22-2019 03:07 PM
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RE: Richard Jewell
(12-21-2019 04:28 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  
(12-20-2019 11:22 PM)JRsec Wrote:  They needed a scapegoat so as not to look like the incompetent fools they were so they trashed a helpless innocent man to cover their own asses. 1996 should have been a huge red flag for our systemic failures to deal with terrorism and if it had been heeded perhaps we wouldn't have been so incompetent on 9/11. But our need to deny the Saudi presence in global terrorism sure as hell has led us into some colossal denials and a perpetual state of delusion with regard to the reality of the threat of Islam.

Oh, I dare! I dare because I don't care how the truth makes people "feel". I only care that they have been warned before they suffer the consequences!
12-22-2019 03:51 PM
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RE: Richard Jewell
The movie got decent reviews but (no pun intended) bombed at the box office. In fact, it now ranks 38th on the list of all-time worst openings for a 'wide' release (in at least 2500 movie theaters nationwide). A lot of films on the list I linked below are just awful movies - I think this was a case of a stupid time to release the movie (this is not a Christmas movie and the competition is just way too strong with Jumanji, the new Star Wars film, and even Frozen 2 - and for adults, Knives Out, Ford vs. Ferrari and lots more).

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/chart/wors...f_=bo_at_a

I am impressed with Clint Eastwood's ability to continue to direct movies as he nears 90. That's 3 movies for him in the last 2 years.
12-22-2019 07:27 PM
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