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Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
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RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 02:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I agree with Frank on all this. Except the permanent Rose Bowl tie-in for the B1G vs P12 Champions as the first round (ditto Orange, Cotton, Sugar for the other conferences). And it's a Sicilian argument. The NY6 exists to create a rotation of Bowls for the Playoffs. Having 6, plus the "near NY6" of the Citrus nipping at their heals, creates competition to maximize the payout. The Peach and Fiesta Bowl add to the value and leverage. Soon new stadiums in Las Vegas and LA may be able to add to the competition. The Peach is in the new Falcons Stadium and in a real sense is pressure on New Orleans for SEC affection -- it's also leverage.

What I'm saying is every third year the Rose Bowl will not be a playoff game but a consolation (as opposed to two out of three years now) for top ten schools.

The other argument is going to 8 would improve stability of the conferences. There is not much appetite to expand, despite Delaney's comments, although the Football playoff with only 4 teams is pushing that direction -- I don't think the B1G or SEC really want this path, as after OU and Texas there is no net positive addition out there for expansion, and there is no need for more inventory. It's road they don't want to go down. I suspect the reason Delaney mentioned it because it is such a negative for the conferences that it might compel them to work for an expanded playoff to avoid such a direction.

Back to the point, it is for leverage with the Bowls themselves that there is a NY6 and going to a "NY4" first round removes that.
sorry but don't think you can absolutely assume that the Rose Bowl QF is going to be automatically the Big Ten/Pac 12 with other bowls filtering out. Sorry but TV has absolutely no interest in that. They were the ones who fought for a seeded even 4 teams- and 8 teams is more important. They don't want to be forced in the semifinal to have a crap team in there. And more importantly the SEC looks at that possiblity and says hell no.
12-19-2019 02:21 PM
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RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 10:19 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 12:33 AM)JRsec Wrote:  Delany's comments were merely a troll of the Network which hampered his plans for a totally self owned an independent BTN by refusing to seek carriage for rights that didn't belong to them, even though they then held T1 & T2 rights for the Big 10 and still do.

He was trolling ESPN because of how they tried to scoop up Big East schools out of the assumption that Delany might expand with them to get his independent BTN into New England.

And he was trolling ESPN for almost scooping Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas out from under FOX's noses in an effort of keeping FOX and the Big 10 from moving Southward into recruiting hotbeds.

The SEC is a majority ESPN product and the ACC is 100% owned by ESPN, and the CFP and bowl structure belongs to ESPN.

So Delaney was essentially saying, "When Hell Freezes Over and the SEC and ACC miss the playoffs Then We Might Have an Excuse to go to 8 Schools."

I see this as a thumbing of the nose at Mickey Mouse and essentially getting a dig in at their control, their ownership of the rights, media means, and their endorsement of the CFP committee to a championship which so far has only been missed by non majority ESPN conferences.

And it is a dig at Sankey who is on record as saying "No" to expanding the playoffs.

I don't see any of this as being a serous observation as much as it is a vehicle designed to convey a Sicilian message to a company that he had to do business with, but really didn't respect.

Eh - I wouldn't say that this is a Big Ten/ESPN thing considering that ESPN is still paying his league $200 million-plus per year along with the Rose Bowl contract. Similar to the NFL, the Big Ten is going to take every opportunity to maximize its leverage in the media marketplace and always make sure that there's someone on the outside that's going to create a bidding war for TV rights. That's quite different than having some type of personal emotional vendetta against ESPN. To be sure, I see it as a Sicilian message, too, but in a different way. As the Corleone family would say, it's not personal, but strictly business.

Separately, it's unlikely that the SEC will miss the playoff, but as I've noted elsewhere, unpredictable things happen all of the time in sports (which is the entire reason why we watch sports in the first place). I certainly wouldn't say it would take hell freezing over for the ACC to miss the playoff. In fact, all that it would take is Clemson having a single bad day. Even coaches and programs where the usual standard is perfection (such as Nick Saban and Alabama) have bad days from time to time.

So, I really do think that the support for an 8-team playoff is growing. People that matter (such as conference commissioners as opposed to fans) are seeing that the "eye test" bias is real having now seen the CFP system in practice over several years. Sure, the sense of urgency is going to be greater for a conference that's locked out as opposed to one that's included... but note that the Big Ten argued against changing the BCS system for many years even though it actually performed the worst out of all of the power conferences from the perspective of making it to the national title game.

I think what has changed is that a conference getting left out of today's CFP system carries a much different stigma despite the fact that it's always a *team* that makes it to the playoff as opposed to a *conference*. The ACC isn't a better football conference than the Pac-12, but it does have a better top *team* with Clemson. So, the perception is the ACC is successful in today's CFP system, but the reality is that *Clemson* is successful in today's CFP system and the ACC is fortunate to come along for the ride. The SEC might feel safe regardless of the playoff format, but the ACC certainly shouldn't (as not that long ago they were regularly sending some of the weakest teams to the BCS system and as evidenced by where their runner-up UVA is ranked this year). Eventually, at least 4 of the P5 are going to have been shut out of the CFP and that's going to have an impact.

Frankly, I don't see why the SEC would object outside of just publicly creating more leverage for itself to ensure that it maximizes revenue (which is probably the real reason for Stankey's comments). Similarly, Big Ten and Pac-12 publicly fought the CFP even though they knew that system was eventually going to come to pass. Ultimately, all of those public objections were really about maximizing their own revenue and protecting the Rose Bowl relationship in that playoff system. I'd expect the same from the SEC in an 8-team playoff proposal - they'll publicly "object" in order to create leverage to obtain the concessions that they really want (whether it's guaranteed money or making sure that their champ always goes to New Orleans or some other friendly de facto home field side, etc.).

The Iowa and eyeball test comment were also significant. At this point any P5 school not named USC, Texas, Oklahoma, Ohio St., Michigan, Notre Dame, Clemson, Florida St., Florida, Georgia, LSU or Alabama has to be concerned. The way things are going a 12-1 B1G champ Iowa will get left out in favor of a 12-1 Alabama who lost in the SEC ccg or an 11-1 Alabama who lost to unbeaten LSU, let alone the situations where a 3rd ranked co champ 11-1 TCU gets dropped 3 spots behind a 12-1 Ohio St. or an 11-2 Big 10 champ Penn St. gets dropped behind an 11-1 Ohio St. team they beat.
12-19-2019 02:30 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 02:21 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I agree with Frank on all this. Except the permanent Rose Bowl tie-in for the B1G vs P12 Champions as the first round (ditto Orange, Cotton, Sugar for the other conferences). And it's a Sicilian argument. The NY6 exists to create a rotation of Bowls for the Playoffs. Having 6, plus the "near NY6" of the Citrus nipping at their heals, creates competition to maximize the payout. The Peach and Fiesta Bowl add to the value and leverage. Soon new stadiums in Las Vegas and LA may be able to add to the competition. The Peach is in the new Falcons Stadium and in a real sense is pressure on New Orleans for SEC affection -- it's also leverage.

What I'm saying is every third year the Rose Bowl will not be a playoff game but a consolation (as opposed to two out of three years now) for top ten schools.

The other argument is going to 8 would improve stability of the conferences. There is not much appetite to expand, despite Delaney's comments, although the Football playoff with only 4 teams is pushing that direction -- I don't think the B1G or SEC really want this path, as after OU and Texas there is no net positive addition out there for expansion, and there is no need for more inventory. It's road they don't want to go down. I suspect the reason Delaney mentioned it because it is such a negative for the conferences that it might compel them to work for an expanded playoff to avoid such a direction.

Back to the point, it is for leverage with the Bowls themselves that there is a NY6 and going to a "NY4" first round removes that.
sorry but don't think you can absolutely assume that the Rose Bowl QF is going to be automatically the Big Ten/Pac 12 with other bowls filtering out. Sorry but TV has absolutely no interest in that. They were the ones who fought for a seeded even 4 teams- and 8 teams is more important. They don't want to be forced in the semifinal to have a crap team in there. And more importantly the SEC looks at that possiblity and says hell no.

TV might be very interested in that. They are paying $80 million a year now for non-playoff teams.

I agree we can't assume it will fall out that way, but it is possible.
12-19-2019 02:31 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-18-2019 06:07 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(12-18-2019 02:24 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(12-18-2019 02:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  Another money line. Especially coming from Ohio St.'s commissioner:


""...Somebody like an Iowa or a Kentucky or any other program that is a developmental program, taking players from three stars to compete with teams with five stars, if you used the eye test in that area, they would never be considered to be better," Delany said. "We thought it would be résumé-based, ties would go to conference champions, and strength of schedule. In that area, it doesn't reflect what I thought would occur, but it is occurring.


"I don't inject bad faith into it. I just don't think it's nearly as predictable on outcomes as I thought it might be, but it's human....""

That's an excellent quote. You see it on this board when someone uses "NFL players" to decide which team is better. Perfect example of drawing a preconceived conclusion and then reaching for evidence to fit it.

I guess its a polite way of saying that its a program without a shot at the playoff.

This is something I've pointed out that second tier P5 programs begin to have a disadvantage as they can never get past the Clemson's, Alabama's and Ohio State's with all recruits clamoring to play for one of them.

Exactly. Which is why I can't figure out why there isn't more consensus within the SEC and other leagues to expand.

Let's be real, as it stands right now a school like South Carolina is probably never gonna get into a 4 team playoff. But an 8 or 16 team playoff? Maybe so if the stars align.
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2019 02:41 PM by Gamecock.)
12-19-2019 02:31 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 01:35 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Suffice it to say that in the SEC's case the amount of revenue promised would have to be substantial to replace the CCG. A format that keep the CCG would be one compromise approach and if that were tendered then access and location might factor in.

The CCGs don't have to go away at all. They could simply play the first round the Saturday before Christmas (so 12/21 this year) which basically gives a bye week the week before and after.

Alternatively if we end up going to 16 or further at some point, the season could be moved up a week.
12-19-2019 02:37 PM
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RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 02:31 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:21 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I agree with Frank on all this. Except the permanent Rose Bowl tie-in for the B1G vs P12 Champions as the first round (ditto Orange, Cotton, Sugar for the other conferences). And it's a Sicilian argument. The NY6 exists to create a rotation of Bowls for the Playoffs. Having 6, plus the "near NY6" of the Citrus nipping at their heals, creates competition to maximize the payout. The Peach and Fiesta Bowl add to the value and leverage. Soon new stadiums in Las Vegas and LA may be able to add to the competition. The Peach is in the new Falcons Stadium and in a real sense is pressure on New Orleans for SEC affection -- it's also leverage.

What I'm saying is every third year the Rose Bowl will not be a playoff game but a consolation (as opposed to two out of three years now) for top ten schools.

The other argument is going to 8 would improve stability of the conferences. There is not much appetite to expand, despite Delaney's comments, although the Football playoff with only 4 teams is pushing that direction -- I don't think the B1G or SEC really want this path, as after OU and Texas there is no net positive addition out there for expansion, and there is no need for more inventory. It's road they don't want to go down. I suspect the reason Delaney mentioned it because it is such a negative for the conferences that it might compel them to work for an expanded playoff to avoid such a direction.

Back to the point, it is for leverage with the Bowls themselves that there is a NY6 and going to a "NY4" first round removes that.
sorry but don't think you can absolutely assume that the Rose Bowl QF is going to be automatically the Big Ten/Pac 12 with other bowls filtering out. Sorry but TV has absolutely no interest in that. They were the ones who fought for a seeded even 4 teams- and 8 teams is more important. They don't want to be forced in the semifinal to have a crap team in there. And more importantly the SEC looks at that possiblity and says hell no.

TV might be very interested in that. They are paying $80 million a year now for non-playoff teams.

I agree we can't assume it will fall out that way, but it is possible.

The 80M a year includes the semifinal game year. 240m for 3 years- and I'd guess at least half of that is for the SF year.

What TV wants is to have where SF can have top 4 teams and final to be possibly the 2 best teams. TV doesn't want 3 vs 4 in rd 1.
12-19-2019 02:40 PM
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Post: #47
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 02:40 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:31 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:21 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I agree with Frank on all this. Except the permanent Rose Bowl tie-in for the B1G vs P12 Champions as the first round (ditto Orange, Cotton, Sugar for the other conferences). And it's a Sicilian argument. The NY6 exists to create a rotation of Bowls for the Playoffs. Having 6, plus the "near NY6" of the Citrus nipping at their heals, creates competition to maximize the payout. The Peach and Fiesta Bowl add to the value and leverage. Soon new stadiums in Las Vegas and LA may be able to add to the competition. The Peach is in the new Falcons Stadium and in a real sense is pressure on New Orleans for SEC affection -- it's also leverage.

What I'm saying is every third year the Rose Bowl will not be a playoff game but a consolation (as opposed to two out of three years now) for top ten schools.

The other argument is going to 8 would improve stability of the conferences. There is not much appetite to expand, despite Delaney's comments, although the Football playoff with only 4 teams is pushing that direction -- I don't think the B1G or SEC really want this path, as after OU and Texas there is no net positive addition out there for expansion, and there is no need for more inventory. It's road they don't want to go down. I suspect the reason Delaney mentioned it because it is such a negative for the conferences that it might compel them to work for an expanded playoff to avoid such a direction.

Back to the point, it is for leverage with the Bowls themselves that there is a NY6 and going to a "NY4" first round removes that.
sorry but don't think you can absolutely assume that the Rose Bowl QF is going to be automatically the Big Ten/Pac 12 with other bowls filtering out. Sorry but TV has absolutely no interest in that. They were the ones who fought for a seeded even 4 teams- and 8 teams is more important. They don't want to be forced in the semifinal to have a crap team in there. And more importantly the SEC looks at that possiblity and says hell no.

TV might be very interested in that. They are paying $80 million a year now for non-playoff teams.

I agree we can't assume it will fall out that way, but it is possible.

The 80M a year includes the semifinal game year. 240m for 3 years- and I'd guess at least half of that is for the SF year.

What TV wants is to have where SF can have top 4 teams and final to be possibly the 2 best teams. TV doesn't want 3 vs 4 in rd 1.

That's incorrect. The $80 million payouts for the Rose and Sugar Bowls are for non-semifinal years, while the rights fees and revenue distributions for when they are semifinal games are in the separate CFP contract. The P5 leagues actually get paid significantly more for their contract bowl tie-ins than they do for making the playoffs.

Also, I know that we keep going around in circles about this, but the TV networks don't care how teams are seeded as long as they are elimination games. The NFC East champ is going to get a home playoff game against a team with a better record in a couple of weeks and the TV networks will not only happily pay a ton of money for that game... but they will also put that game into the best time slot available because even an 8-8 NFC East champ is going to be a great ratings draw compared to, say, the Buffalo Bills or Houston Texans that have much better records. TV networks will pay for the traditional Rose Bowl matchup in a playoff system because that has been a proven ratings winner for decades.

Now, there might be other reasons why the playoff will end up as you propose/want (e.g. always 1 vs. 8, 2 vs. 7, etc.), but it just won't be because that's what the TV networks want. The NFL doesn't do straight-line seeding by record and absolutely no one on the TV side cares one bit. They just want elimination games that create great TV.
12-19-2019 02:53 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 02:53 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:40 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:31 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:21 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I agree with Frank on all this. Except the permanent Rose Bowl tie-in for the B1G vs P12 Champions as the first round (ditto Orange, Cotton, Sugar for the other conferences). And it's a Sicilian argument. The NY6 exists to create a rotation of Bowls for the Playoffs. Having 6, plus the "near NY6" of the Citrus nipping at their heals, creates competition to maximize the payout. The Peach and Fiesta Bowl add to the value and leverage. Soon new stadiums in Las Vegas and LA may be able to add to the competition. The Peach is in the new Falcons Stadium and in a real sense is pressure on New Orleans for SEC affection -- it's also leverage.

What I'm saying is every third year the Rose Bowl will not be a playoff game but a consolation (as opposed to two out of three years now) for top ten schools.

The other argument is going to 8 would improve stability of the conferences. There is not much appetite to expand, despite Delaney's comments, although the Football playoff with only 4 teams is pushing that direction -- I don't think the B1G or SEC really want this path, as after OU and Texas there is no net positive addition out there for expansion, and there is no need for more inventory. It's road they don't want to go down. I suspect the reason Delaney mentioned it because it is such a negative for the conferences that it might compel them to work for an expanded playoff to avoid such a direction.

Back to the point, it is for leverage with the Bowls themselves that there is a NY6 and going to a "NY4" first round removes that.
sorry but don't think you can absolutely assume that the Rose Bowl QF is going to be automatically the Big Ten/Pac 12 with other bowls filtering out. Sorry but TV has absolutely no interest in that. They were the ones who fought for a seeded even 4 teams- and 8 teams is more important. They don't want to be forced in the semifinal to have a crap team in there. And more importantly the SEC looks at that possiblity and says hell no.

TV might be very interested in that. They are paying $80 million a year now for non-playoff teams.

I agree we can't assume it will fall out that way, but it is possible.

The 80M a year includes the semifinal game year. 240m for 3 years- and I'd guess at least half of that is for the SF year.

What TV wants is to have where SF can have top 4 teams and final to be possibly the 2 best teams. TV doesn't want 3 vs 4 in rd 1.

That's incorrect. The $80 million payouts for the Rose and Sugar Bowls are for non-semifinal years, while the rights fees and revenue distributions for when they are semifinal games are in the separate CFP contract. The P5 leagues actually get paid significantly more for their contract bowl tie-ins than they do for making the playoffs.

Also, I know that we keep going around in circles about this, but the TV networks don't care how teams are seeded as long as they are elimination games. The NFC East champ is going to get a home playoff game against a team with a better record in a couple of weeks and the TV networks will not only happily pay a ton of money for that game... but they will also put that game into the best time slot available because even an 8-8 NFC East champ is going to be a great ratings draw compared to, say, the Buffalo Bills or Houston Texans that have much better records. TV networks will pay for the traditional Rose Bowl matchup in a playoff system because that has been a proven ratings winner for decades.

Now, there might be other reasons why the playoff will end up as you propose/want (e.g. always 1 vs. 8, 2 vs. 7, etc.), but it just won't be because that's what the TV networks want. The NFL doesn't do straight-line seeding by record and absolutely no one on the TV side cares one bit. They just want elimination games that create great TV.

The 2 Rose Bowl playoff games drew huge numbers..

If what you say is so true, why was seeding put in the current CFP? Because TV wanted to have a mechanism to have the top teams playing in the title game. That's not going to change.

Oh, and if Delaney is pushing the Big Ten side- that means they've been the one hurt. SEC again still has the leverage. They aren't going to let the Big Ten get a big advantage always getting a Pac 12 team who has made the playoffs twice in the last 6 years(and 0 for 3).
12-19-2019 03:02 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 03:02 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:53 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:40 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:31 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:21 PM)stever20 Wrote:  sorry but don't think you can absolutely assume that the Rose Bowl QF is going to be automatically the Big Ten/Pac 12 with other bowls filtering out. Sorry but TV has absolutely no interest in that. They were the ones who fought for a seeded even 4 teams- and 8 teams is more important. They don't want to be forced in the semifinal to have a crap team in there. And more importantly the SEC looks at that possiblity and says hell no.

TV might be very interested in that. They are paying $80 million a year now for non-playoff teams.

I agree we can't assume it will fall out that way, but it is possible.

The 80M a year includes the semifinal game year. 240m for 3 years- and I'd guess at least half of that is for the SF year.

What TV wants is to have where SF can have top 4 teams and final to be possibly the 2 best teams. TV doesn't want 3 vs 4 in rd 1.

That's incorrect. The $80 million payouts for the Rose and Sugar Bowls are for non-semifinal years, while the rights fees and revenue distributions for when they are semifinal games are in the separate CFP contract. The P5 leagues actually get paid significantly more for their contract bowl tie-ins than they do for making the playoffs.

Also, I know that we keep going around in circles about this, but the TV networks don't care how teams are seeded as long as they are elimination games. The NFC East champ is going to get a home playoff game against a team with a better record in a couple of weeks and the TV networks will not only happily pay a ton of money for that game... but they will also put that game into the best time slot available because even an 8-8 NFC East champ is going to be a great ratings draw compared to, say, the Buffalo Bills or Houston Texans that have much better records. TV networks will pay for the traditional Rose Bowl matchup in a playoff system because that has been a proven ratings winner for decades.

Now, there might be other reasons why the playoff will end up as you propose/want (e.g. always 1 vs. 8, 2 vs. 7, etc.), but it just won't be because that's what the TV networks want. The NFL doesn't do straight-line seeding by record and absolutely no one on the TV side cares one bit. They just want elimination games that create great TV.

The 2 Rose Bowl playoff games drew huge numbers..

If what you say is so true, why was seeding put in the current CFP? Because TV wanted to have a mechanism to have the top teams playing in the title game. That's not going to change.

Oh, and if Delaney is pushing the Big Ten side- that means they've been the one hurt. SEC again still has the leverage. They aren't going to let the Big Ten get a big advantage always getting a Pac 12 team who has made the playoffs twice in the last 6 years(and 0 for 3).

Good chance it would be a disadvantage. Always have to play a conference champ. That's why I think it is unlikely to happen. But if the Pac 12 and Big 10 want it, I don't think anyone else will object, TV or the other conferences.
12-19-2019 03:18 PM
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RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
Since the beginning of the BCS era, the average final regular season ranking of the champ:

Pac 12 5.52
Big 12 4.48
Big 10 7.14
ACC 7.67
SEC 2.90
AAC/BE 13.0
MWC 17.9
12-19-2019 03:25 PM
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RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 03:18 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:02 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:53 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:40 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:31 PM)bullet Wrote:  TV might be very interested in that. They are paying $80 million a year now for non-playoff teams.

I agree we can't assume it will fall out that way, but it is possible.

The 80M a year includes the semifinal game year. 240m for 3 years- and I'd guess at least half of that is for the SF year.

What TV wants is to have where SF can have top 4 teams and final to be possibly the 2 best teams. TV doesn't want 3 vs 4 in rd 1.

That's incorrect. The $80 million payouts for the Rose and Sugar Bowls are for non-semifinal years, while the rights fees and revenue distributions for when they are semifinal games are in the separate CFP contract. The P5 leagues actually get paid significantly more for their contract bowl tie-ins than they do for making the playoffs.

Also, I know that we keep going around in circles about this, but the TV networks don't care how teams are seeded as long as they are elimination games. The NFC East champ is going to get a home playoff game against a team with a better record in a couple of weeks and the TV networks will not only happily pay a ton of money for that game... but they will also put that game into the best time slot available because even an 8-8 NFC East champ is going to be a great ratings draw compared to, say, the Buffalo Bills or Houston Texans that have much better records. TV networks will pay for the traditional Rose Bowl matchup in a playoff system because that has been a proven ratings winner for decades.

Now, there might be other reasons why the playoff will end up as you propose/want (e.g. always 1 vs. 8, 2 vs. 7, etc.), but it just won't be because that's what the TV networks want. The NFL doesn't do straight-line seeding by record and absolutely no one on the TV side cares one bit. They just want elimination games that create great TV.

The 2 Rose Bowl playoff games drew huge numbers..

If what you say is so true, why was seeding put in the current CFP? Because TV wanted to have a mechanism to have the top teams playing in the title game. That's not going to change.

Oh, and if Delaney is pushing the Big Ten side- that means they've been the one hurt. SEC again still has the leverage. They aren't going to let the Big Ten get a big advantage always getting a Pac 12 team who has made the playoffs twice in the last 6 years(and 0 for 3).

Good chance it would be a disadvantage. Always have to play a conference champ. That's why I think it is unlikely to happen. But if the Pac 12 and Big 10 want it, I don't think anyone else will object, TV or the other conferences.

lol. lets just look at last year......
Sugar #1 Alabama vs #7 Michigan
Orange #2 Clemson vs #5 Georgia
Cotton #4 Oklahoma vs #3 Notre Dame
Rose #6 Ohio St vs #9 Washington

Sorry but no way would the ACC or Big 12 be agreeable to that at all. And frankly the SEC also....
12-19-2019 03:26 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 03:26 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:18 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:02 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:53 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:40 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The 80M a year includes the semifinal game year. 240m for 3 years- and I'd guess at least half of that is for the SF year.

What TV wants is to have where SF can have top 4 teams and final to be possibly the 2 best teams. TV doesn't want 3 vs 4 in rd 1.

That's incorrect. The $80 million payouts for the Rose and Sugar Bowls are for non-semifinal years, while the rights fees and revenue distributions for when they are semifinal games are in the separate CFP contract. The P5 leagues actually get paid significantly more for their contract bowl tie-ins than they do for making the playoffs.

Also, I know that we keep going around in circles about this, but the TV networks don't care how teams are seeded as long as they are elimination games. The NFC East champ is going to get a home playoff game against a team with a better record in a couple of weeks and the TV networks will not only happily pay a ton of money for that game... but they will also put that game into the best time slot available because even an 8-8 NFC East champ is going to be a great ratings draw compared to, say, the Buffalo Bills or Houston Texans that have much better records. TV networks will pay for the traditional Rose Bowl matchup in a playoff system because that has been a proven ratings winner for decades.

Now, there might be other reasons why the playoff will end up as you propose/want (e.g. always 1 vs. 8, 2 vs. 7, etc.), but it just won't be because that's what the TV networks want. The NFL doesn't do straight-line seeding by record and absolutely no one on the TV side cares one bit. They just want elimination games that create great TV.

The 2 Rose Bowl playoff games drew huge numbers..

If what you say is so true, why was seeding put in the current CFP? Because TV wanted to have a mechanism to have the top teams playing in the title game. That's not going to change.

Oh, and if Delaney is pushing the Big Ten side- that means they've been the one hurt. SEC again still has the leverage. They aren't going to let the Big Ten get a big advantage always getting a Pac 12 team who has made the playoffs twice in the last 6 years(and 0 for 3).

Good chance it would be a disadvantage. Always have to play a conference champ. That's why I think it is unlikely to happen. But if the Pac 12 and Big 10 want it, I don't think anyone else will object, TV or the other conferences.

lol. lets just look at last year......
Sugar #1 Alabama vs #7 Michigan
Orange #2 Clemson vs #5 Georgia
Cotton #4 Oklahoma vs #3 Notre Dame
Rose #6 Ohio St vs #9 Washington

Sorry but no way would the ACC or Big 12 be agreeable to that at all. And frankly the SEC also....

I tend to agree. I could see a Pac or Big Ten team in the Rose Bowl every year it’s in the playoff, but probably not both unless the seeding worked out. The Rose can always give up their spot in the rotation and just be a NYD game. For some reason, I don’t think they’ll do that!

It would have been interesting to see which bowl ND chose: Cotton or Rose?
12-19-2019 03:33 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 03:25 PM)bullet Wrote:  Since the beginning of the BCS era, the average final regular season ranking of the champ:

Pac 12 5.52
Big 12 4.48
Big 10 7.14
ACC 7.67
SEC 2.90
AAC/BE 13.0
MWC 17.9

and how about the CFP era?
SEC 1.50
ACC 2.00
B12 4.17
B10 4.17
P12 5.83

Sorry but why exactly would the ACC and SEC be good with that?
12-19-2019 03:36 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 02:21 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I agree with Frank on all this. Except the permanent Rose Bowl tie-in for the B1G vs P12 Champions as the first round (ditto Orange, Cotton, Sugar for the other conferences). And it's a Sicilian argument. The NY6 exists to create a rotation of Bowls for the Playoffs. Having 6, plus the "near NY6" of the Citrus nipping at their heals, creates competition to maximize the payout. The Peach and Fiesta Bowl add to the value and leverage. Soon new stadiums in Las Vegas and LA may be able to add to the competition. The Peach is in the new Falcons Stadium and in a real sense is pressure on New Orleans for SEC affection -- it's also leverage.

What I'm saying is every third year the Rose Bowl will not be a playoff game but a consolation (as opposed to two out of three years now) for top ten schools.

The other argument is going to 8 would improve stability of the conferences. There is not much appetite to expand, despite Delaney's comments, although the Football playoff with only 4 teams is pushing that direction -- I don't think the B1G or SEC really want this path, as after OU and Texas there is no net positive addition out there for expansion, and there is no need for more inventory. It's road they don't want to go down. I suspect the reason Delaney mentioned it because it is such a negative for the conferences that it might compel them to work for an expanded playoff to avoid such a direction.

Back to the point, it is for leverage with the Bowls themselves that there is a NY6 and going to a "NY4" first round removes that.
sorry but don't think you can absolutely assume that the Rose Bowl QF is going to be automatically the Big Ten/Pac 12 with other bowls filtering out. Sorry but TV has absolutely no interest in that. They were the ones who fought for a seeded even 4 teams- and 8 teams is more important. They don't want to be forced in the semifinal to have a crap team in there. And more importantly the SEC looks at that possiblity and says hell no.

(12-19-2019 03:36 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:25 PM)bullet Wrote:  Since the beginning of the BCS era, the average final regular season ranking of the champ:

Pac 12 5.52
Big 12 4.48
Big 10 7.14
ACC 7.67
SEC 2.90
AAC/BE 13.0
MWC 17.9

and how about the CFP era?
SEC 1.50
ACC 2.00
B12 4.17
B10 4.17
P12 5.83

Sorry but why exactly would the ACC and SEC be good with that?

Give the rankings for the next ACC school not named Clemson. Then you'll see how fragile the ACC really is.
12-19-2019 03:49 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 03:49 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:21 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I agree with Frank on all this. Except the permanent Rose Bowl tie-in for the B1G vs P12 Champions as the first round (ditto Orange, Cotton, Sugar for the other conferences). And it's a Sicilian argument. The NY6 exists to create a rotation of Bowls for the Playoffs. Having 6, plus the "near NY6" of the Citrus nipping at their heals, creates competition to maximize the payout. The Peach and Fiesta Bowl add to the value and leverage. Soon new stadiums in Las Vegas and LA may be able to add to the competition. The Peach is in the new Falcons Stadium and in a real sense is pressure on New Orleans for SEC affection -- it's also leverage.

What I'm saying is every third year the Rose Bowl will not be a playoff game but a consolation (as opposed to two out of three years now) for top ten schools.

The other argument is going to 8 would improve stability of the conferences. There is not much appetite to expand, despite Delaney's comments, although the Football playoff with only 4 teams is pushing that direction -- I don't think the B1G or SEC really want this path, as after OU and Texas there is no net positive addition out there for expansion, and there is no need for more inventory. It's road they don't want to go down. I suspect the reason Delaney mentioned it because it is such a negative for the conferences that it might compel them to work for an expanded playoff to avoid such a direction.

Back to the point, it is for leverage with the Bowls themselves that there is a NY6 and going to a "NY4" first round removes that.
sorry but don't think you can absolutely assume that the Rose Bowl QF is going to be automatically the Big Ten/Pac 12 with other bowls filtering out. Sorry but TV has absolutely no interest in that. They were the ones who fought for a seeded even 4 teams- and 8 teams is more important. They don't want to be forced in the semifinal to have a crap team in there. And more importantly the SEC looks at that possiblity and says hell no.

(12-19-2019 03:36 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:25 PM)bullet Wrote:  Since the beginning of the BCS era, the average final regular season ranking of the champ:

Pac 12 5.52
Big 12 4.48
Big 10 7.14
ACC 7.67
SEC 2.90
AAC/BE 13.0
MWC 17.9

and how about the CFP era?
SEC 1.50
ACC 2.00
B12 4.17
B10 4.17
P12 5.83

Sorry but why exactly would the ACC and SEC be good with that?

Give the rankings for the next ACC school not named Clemson. Then you'll see how fragile the ACC really is.

Depth is utterly meaningless when it comes to the playoff....
12-19-2019 03:57 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 03:57 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:49 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:21 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I agree with Frank on all this. Except the permanent Rose Bowl tie-in for the B1G vs P12 Champions as the first round (ditto Orange, Cotton, Sugar for the other conferences). And it's a Sicilian argument. The NY6 exists to create a rotation of Bowls for the Playoffs. Having 6, plus the "near NY6" of the Citrus nipping at their heals, creates competition to maximize the payout. The Peach and Fiesta Bowl add to the value and leverage. Soon new stadiums in Las Vegas and LA may be able to add to the competition. The Peach is in the new Falcons Stadium and in a real sense is pressure on New Orleans for SEC affection -- it's also leverage.

What I'm saying is every third year the Rose Bowl will not be a playoff game but a consolation (as opposed to two out of three years now) for top ten schools.

The other argument is going to 8 would improve stability of the conferences. There is not much appetite to expand, despite Delaney's comments, although the Football playoff with only 4 teams is pushing that direction -- I don't think the B1G or SEC really want this path, as after OU and Texas there is no net positive addition out there for expansion, and there is no need for more inventory. It's road they don't want to go down. I suspect the reason Delaney mentioned it because it is such a negative for the conferences that it might compel them to work for an expanded playoff to avoid such a direction.

Back to the point, it is for leverage with the Bowls themselves that there is a NY6 and going to a "NY4" first round removes that.
sorry but don't think you can absolutely assume that the Rose Bowl QF is going to be automatically the Big Ten/Pac 12 with other bowls filtering out. Sorry but TV has absolutely no interest in that. They were the ones who fought for a seeded even 4 teams- and 8 teams is more important. They don't want to be forced in the semifinal to have a crap team in there. And more importantly the SEC looks at that possiblity and says hell no.

(12-19-2019 03:36 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:25 PM)bullet Wrote:  Since the beginning of the BCS era, the average final regular season ranking of the champ:

Pac 12 5.52
Big 12 4.48
Big 10 7.14
ACC 7.67
SEC 2.90
AAC/BE 13.0
MWC 17.9

and how about the CFP era?
SEC 1.50
ACC 2.00
B12 4.17
B10 4.17
P12 5.83

Sorry but why exactly would the ACC and SEC be good with that?

Give the rankings for the next ACC school not named Clemson. Then you'll see how fragile the ACC really is.

Depth is utterly meaningless when it comes to the playoff....


Exactly. Its a team, not a group.

Why is there such "conference pride" group think over the playoffs, then?

Its a single team (Clemson, Alabama, etc..) achievement, not a collective group pride thing.
12-19-2019 04:09 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 03:57 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:49 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:21 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I agree with Frank on all this. Except the permanent Rose Bowl tie-in for the B1G vs P12 Champions as the first round (ditto Orange, Cotton, Sugar for the other conferences). And it's a Sicilian argument. The NY6 exists to create a rotation of Bowls for the Playoffs. Having 6, plus the "near NY6" of the Citrus nipping at their heals, creates competition to maximize the payout. The Peach and Fiesta Bowl add to the value and leverage. Soon new stadiums in Las Vegas and LA may be able to add to the competition. The Peach is in the new Falcons Stadium and in a real sense is pressure on New Orleans for SEC affection -- it's also leverage.

What I'm saying is every third year the Rose Bowl will not be a playoff game but a consolation (as opposed to two out of three years now) for top ten schools.

The other argument is going to 8 would improve stability of the conferences. There is not much appetite to expand, despite Delaney's comments, although the Football playoff with only 4 teams is pushing that direction -- I don't think the B1G or SEC really want this path, as after OU and Texas there is no net positive addition out there for expansion, and there is no need for more inventory. It's road they don't want to go down. I suspect the reason Delaney mentioned it because it is such a negative for the conferences that it might compel them to work for an expanded playoff to avoid such a direction.

Back to the point, it is for leverage with the Bowls themselves that there is a NY6 and going to a "NY4" first round removes that.
sorry but don't think you can absolutely assume that the Rose Bowl QF is going to be automatically the Big Ten/Pac 12 with other bowls filtering out. Sorry but TV has absolutely no interest in that. They were the ones who fought for a seeded even 4 teams- and 8 teams is more important. They don't want to be forced in the semifinal to have a crap team in there. And more importantly the SEC looks at that possiblity and says hell no.

(12-19-2019 03:36 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:25 PM)bullet Wrote:  Since the beginning of the BCS era, the average final regular season ranking of the champ:

Pac 12 5.52
Big 12 4.48
Big 10 7.14
ACC 7.67
SEC 2.90
AAC/BE 13.0
MWC 17.9

and how about the CFP era?
SEC 1.50
ACC 2.00
B12 4.17
B10 4.17
P12 5.83

Sorry but why exactly would the ACC and SEC be good with that?

Give the rankings for the next ACC school not named Clemson. Then you'll see how fragile the ACC really is.

Depth is utterly meaningless when it comes to the playoff....

Depends upon what you mean by "meaningless." It's certainly meaningless to Clemson as a school. However, I don't think it's meaningless to the ACC overall when they need to evaluate the entire system and need to think about the long term year-to-year implications. When Alabama falters, the SEC has schools like LSU, Georgia or Florida on top of an almost mythical hold over the committee in terms of it being perceived to be the toughest conference. So, I can understand if the SEC simply feels that it can roll the dice and not require a guaranteed auto-bid (although I personally don't think they'd take that position for an 8-team playoff format) or insist upon straight seeding.

However, the ACC certainly doesn't have that luxury. Maybe it could if Florida State can get its act together again, but as of right now, if Clemson slips up even once, then the ACC is on the outside looking in.

Conferences can't just assume what has happened in the last few years are going to continue forever... because that's simply never true. There are years where even the most powerful schools, such as Alabama and Ohio State, don't make it to the playoff, so the ACC has to account for those seasons where Clemson inevitably gets randomly upset in the middle of October by an inferior team.
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2019 04:56 PM by Frank the Tank.)
12-19-2019 04:55 PM
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Post: #58
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 03:36 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:25 PM)bullet Wrote:  Since the beginning of the BCS era, the average final regular season ranking of the champ:

Pac 12 5.52
Big 12 4.48
Big 10 7.14
ACC 7.67
SEC 2.90
AAC/BE 13.0
MWC 17.9

and how about the CFP era?
SEC 1.50
ACC 2.00
B12 4.17
B10 4.17
P12 5.83

Sorry but why exactly would the ACC and SEC be good with that?

ACC is pretty much solely one school. Which is why the 21 year data is lower and so much more reliable.

SEC if they are #1 will get the #8 seed which will be G5 or lowest wildcard. B1G and Pac playing doesn't impact them.
12-19-2019 06:31 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #59
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
Maybe this was a subtle reminder to the ACC that between 2004-2012 they would have qualified for exactly 1 top 4 CFP playoff. The ACC has enjoyed a nice ride since 2013 but their was a season where they were the weak sister and truth be told, Florida St and Clemson, not the conference as a whole, have been successful in recent years.
12-19-2019 06:52 PM
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Post: #60
RE: Jim Delany: SEC, ACC snub could spur playoff change
(12-19-2019 04:55 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:57 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:49 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:21 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I agree with Frank on all this. Except the permanent Rose Bowl tie-in for the B1G vs P12 Champions as the first round (ditto Orange, Cotton, Sugar for the other conferences). And it's a Sicilian argument. The NY6 exists to create a rotation of Bowls for the Playoffs. Having 6, plus the "near NY6" of the Citrus nipping at their heals, creates competition to maximize the payout. The Peach and Fiesta Bowl add to the value and leverage. Soon new stadiums in Las Vegas and LA may be able to add to the competition. The Peach is in the new Falcons Stadium and in a real sense is pressure on New Orleans for SEC affection -- it's also leverage.

What I'm saying is every third year the Rose Bowl will not be a playoff game but a consolation (as opposed to two out of three years now) for top ten schools.

The other argument is going to 8 would improve stability of the conferences. There is not much appetite to expand, despite Delaney's comments, although the Football playoff with only 4 teams is pushing that direction -- I don't think the B1G or SEC really want this path, as after OU and Texas there is no net positive addition out there for expansion, and there is no need for more inventory. It's road they don't want to go down. I suspect the reason Delaney mentioned it because it is such a negative for the conferences that it might compel them to work for an expanded playoff to avoid such a direction.

Back to the point, it is for leverage with the Bowls themselves that there is a NY6 and going to a "NY4" first round removes that.
sorry but don't think you can absolutely assume that the Rose Bowl QF is going to be automatically the Big Ten/Pac 12 with other bowls filtering out. Sorry but TV has absolutely no interest in that. They were the ones who fought for a seeded even 4 teams- and 8 teams is more important. They don't want to be forced in the semifinal to have a crap team in there. And more importantly the SEC looks at that possiblity and says hell no.

(12-19-2019 03:36 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:25 PM)bullet Wrote:  Since the beginning of the BCS era, the average final regular season ranking of the champ:

Pac 12 5.52
Big 12 4.48
Big 10 7.14
ACC 7.67
SEC 2.90
AAC/BE 13.0
MWC 17.9

and how about the CFP era?
SEC 1.50
ACC 2.00
B12 4.17
B10 4.17
P12 5.83

Sorry but why exactly would the ACC and SEC be good with that?

Give the rankings for the next ACC school not named Clemson. Then you'll see how fragile the ACC really is.

Depth is utterly meaningless when it comes to the playoff....

Depends upon what you mean by "meaningless." It's certainly meaningless to Clemson as a school. However, I don't think it's meaningless to the ACC overall when they need to evaluate the entire system and need to think about the long term year-to-year implications. When Alabama falters, the SEC has schools like LSU, Georgia or Florida on top of an almost mythical hold over the committee in terms of it being perceived to be the toughest conference. So, I can understand if the SEC simply feels that it can roll the dice and not require a guaranteed auto-bid (although I personally don't think they'd take that position for an 8-team playoff format) or insist upon straight seeding.

However, the ACC certainly doesn't have that luxury. Maybe it could if Florida State can get its act together again, but as of right now, if Clemson slips up even once, then the ACC is on the outside looking in.

Conferences can't just assume what has happened in the last few years are going to continue forever... because that's simply never true. There are years where even the most powerful schools, such as Alabama and Ohio State, don't make it to the playoff, so the ACC has to account for those seasons where Clemson inevitably gets randomly upset in the middle of October by an inferior team.

Your scenario literally came about for 2 straight years where Clemson had slip-ups and lost to Pitt in 2016, and they lost to Syracuse in 2017. Both years Clemson made it to the CFP, and I believe they won the NC after losing to Pitt.
12-19-2019 09:19 PM
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