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NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes -Updated 2/17
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Def Berkkat Offline
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Post: #61
RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 03:23 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 01:34 PM)Def Berkkat Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 12:41 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 12:23 PM)Def Berkkat Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 12:09 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  Cool, guess we just shouldn't have any conversations at all here except at the end of the year ....

OR is that only because Cincy sucks in this ranking that you have a problem with it being posted ...

Maybe you should have titled the thread "look at me. look at me. my team is off to a good start".


Is that a better title for you?

I didn't start it so it don't matter none to me what you call it.

However, I relate it on the same level as pre-season ranking threads. What's the point? It's way too early to know who's going to be good and who's not.

It's numerically (app. 10 games) 1/3 of the way through the season but in reality it's really not.

Nobody's going to be playing three games in three days in January like you do in Nov-dec. Jan-Feb is when you find out who's who.

Your general premise is correct. However, WTF are we going to discuss here up until February? The America's Got Talent semifinalists?

Of course nobody knows how things will play out. Nobody is dumb enough to think this is how things are gonna be in March. But is a decent measure and gauge for how things are now. 1/3 of the way through the year and nearly 100% through non-con, there isn't much room for big jumps in certain metrics.

Funny how this is a thing this year. I don't remember you making that big of a deal about it in the previous years when Cincy was bringing in the attention..

Can somebody simply offer up their opinion without someone pooping themselves?

If there was a thread like this last year, I likely didn't comment on it as not to have to eat it later if the season went south for some reason.
12-16-2019 04:00 PM
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Wudizzle Offline
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
I disagree that NET is worse. I think NET is significantly better for deserving non-P5 teams. And I think it worked out that way when the bracket was announced last March. Note that I'm not saying NET is the answer to everything. But I think if you are a legitimately good non-P5 team, your NET will reflect it.
12-16-2019 04:02 PM
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 03:54 PM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 03:25 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 01:55 PM)e-parade Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 12:36 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:  How is Stanford #9? Duquesne #20?

I honestly don't think the NET is better than the RPI. I know it's early, but still.

While Duquesne has played basically no one, they are one of only 4 undefeated teams in all of DI, and 7 of their 9 wins have come by at least 10 points. 5 of them have come by at least 20 points. Handily beat everyone on your schedule and good things will happen.

But they'll run into Dayton (twice), VCU (once), et al. in the A10 and lose some there. Really they'll end up helping out the conference by taking care of business OOC, because you can't do much better than going undefeated and winning by and average margin of just under 18 points.

So basically it gives the narrative for major teams to just schedule home cream puffs though the non-con, win all of those games by 30+, call it a "beat everyone on your schedule and good things will happen" show and call it a day.


Yes. This was made for the Syracuse's of the world. The middling power 5 teams who get gaudy records playing nobody at home and blowing them out, then go in conference and get moral victories and a couple upsets. Because these bad teams get rated higher the good teams in conference get a boost and higher metrics from playing them, meaning when those bad teams upset good teams the win is ranked even higher. Meanwhile the poor teams taking body bag games have lower metrics dragging down the one or two good teams in their league ratings, lowering their champs NCAA seed, because those one or two good teams are playing at the body bag game team's home court and are close games.

Which also explains why we are seeing some big time upsets and good games early in the tourney. This slow slide has been going on since they started trying to tweak the rpi because mid majors had figured out a way to "rig the system" and were getting too many teams in and the committee was struggling to explain why the number 9 acc team should get in over VCU/Missouri St/St Marys. Now with the NET formula kept secret (so it won't be rigged like rpi was) they just move teams where they want to because no one can say that's what they are doing. Now they don't have to worry about people using unbiased facts to argue against the committee's eye test ($$)

I surmise math department savants were busy figuring out how the NCAA derived NET. It is a fruitless endeavor because the NCAA can change whatever they want, when they want, and how they want with no external accountability and with (incredibly) nary a media complaint.
12-16-2019 04:14 PM
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Foreverandever Online
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Post: #64
RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 04:14 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 03:54 PM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 03:25 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 01:55 PM)e-parade Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 12:36 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:  How is Stanford #9? Duquesne #20?

I honestly don't think the NET is better than the RPI. I know it's early, but still.

While Duquesne has played basically no one, they are one of only 4 undefeated teams in all of DI, and 7 of their 9 wins have come by at least 10 points. 5 of them have come by at least 20 points. Handily beat everyone on your schedule and good things will happen.

But they'll run into Dayton (twice), VCU (once), et al. in the A10 and lose some there. Really they'll end up helping out the conference by taking care of business OOC, because you can't do much better than going undefeated and winning by and average margin of just under 18 points.

So basically it gives the narrative for major teams to just schedule home cream puffs though the non-con, win all of those games by 30+, call it a "beat everyone on your schedule and good things will happen" show and call it a day.


Yes. This was made for the Syracuse's of the world. The middling power 5 teams who get gaudy records playing nobody at home and blowing them out, then go in conference and get moral victories and a couple upsets. Because these bad teams get rated higher the good teams in conference get a boost and higher metrics from playing them, meaning when those bad teams upset good teams the win is ranked even higher. Meanwhile the poor teams taking body bag games have lower metrics dragging down the one or two good teams in their league ratings, lowering their champs NCAA seed, because those one or two good teams are playing at the body bag game team's home court and are close games.

Which also explains why we are seeing some big time upsets and good games early in the tourney. This slow slide has been going on since they started trying to tweak the rpi because mid majors had figured out a way to "rig the system" and were getting too many teams in and the committee was struggling to explain why the number 9 acc team should get in over VCU/Missouri St/St Marys. Now with the NET formula kept secret (so it won't be rigged like rpi was) they just move teams where they want to because no one can say that's what they are doing. Now they don't have to worry about people using unbiased facts to argue against the committee's eye test ($$)

I surmise math department savants were busy figuring out how the NCAA derived NET. It is a fruitless endeavor because the NCAA can change whatever they want, when they want, and how they want with no external accountability and with (incredibly) nary a media complaint.


Yes. They get close but they are always thrown off by a few teams that don't fit the formula they have reversed engineered. NCAA had a couple funky things happen last year that got called out, buy mostly we are talking about teams moving from one side of the bubble to the other so no more than 10 spots or so. As long as they do it slowly over time it will be hard to figure out exactly what it is they did. The easiest way to catch is is comparing the NET to the old RPI and take into account MOV, someone did it last year and the starkness of benefits to the middle pack P5 teams is hard to miss.
12-16-2019 04:21 PM
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Stickboy46 Offline
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
One thing that shouldn't get missed ....

@Tulane is now a Q2 game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12-16-2019 05:05 PM
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Greenwavedrownsacat Offline
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 05:05 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  One thing that shouldn't get missed ....

@Tulane is now a Q2 game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Glad we could help 03-wink we’ll win tonight against alcorn state, but next week we have two very interesting games in a tourney- Akron & likely Liberty. Let’s see if we can get Tulane into the top 100!
12-16-2019 05:43 PM
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tharmon15 Offline
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 05:05 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  One thing that shouldn't get missed ....

@Tulane is now a Q2 game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gosh, Tulane will be one of those Hunter coached teams that will catch fire and you better hope you can hang on during those stretches. Is it fair to say that they rely pretty heavily on the 3 and if they aren't hitting it will be tough to compete against the better half of the conference? Have not watched much of them, but I know Hunter's teams usually play fast and get a lot of shots up.
12-16-2019 05:59 PM
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 05:43 PM)Greenwavedrownsacat Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 05:05 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  One thing that shouldn't get missed ....

@Tulane is now a Q2 game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Glad we could help 03-wink we’ll win tonight against alcorn state, but next week we have two very interesting games in a tourney- Akron & likely Liberty. Let’s see if we can get Tulane into the top 100!

That gym is a nightmare when it is full and rocking. Going to be like the old kennel for Gonzaga. Teams will have to earn those wins.

Will be interesting to see which games Hunter will want to move to the city arena like the original plan called for if Tulane gets the support rolling. I am guessing it will be very few conference games because of the smaller on campus arena advantage. Hunter seems the type to prefer a knife fight then a club. Up close and personal is his public persona.
12-16-2019 06:39 PM
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ShockerFever Offline
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 03:54 PM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 03:25 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 01:55 PM)e-parade Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 12:36 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:  How is Stanford #9? Duquesne #20?

I honestly don't think the NET is better than the RPI. I know it's early, but still.

While Duquesne has played basically no one, they are one of only 4 undefeated teams in all of DI, and 7 of their 9 wins have come by at least 10 points. 5 of them have come by at least 20 points. Handily beat everyone on your schedule and good things will happen.

But they'll run into Dayton (twice), VCU (once), et al. in the A10 and lose some there. Really they'll end up helping out the conference by taking care of business OOC, because you can't do much better than going undefeated and winning by and average margin of just under 18 points.

So basically it gives the narrative for major teams to just schedule home cream puffs though the non-con, win all of those games by 30+, call it a "beat everyone on your schedule and good things will happen" show and call it a day.


Yes. This was made for the Syracuse's of the world. The middling power 5 teams who get gaudy records playing nobody at home and blowing them out, then go in conference and get moral victories and a couple upsets. Because these bad teams get rated higher the good teams in conference get a boost and higher metrics from playing them, meaning when those bad teams upset good teams the win is ranked even higher. Meanwhile the poor teams taking body bag games have lower metrics dragging down the one or two good teams in their league ratings, lowering their champs NCAA seed, because those one or two good teams are playing at the body bag game team's home court and are close games.

Which also explains why we are seeing some big time upsets and good games early in the tourney. This slow slide has been going on since they started trying to tweak the rpi because mid majors had figured out a way to "rig the system" and were getting too many teams in and the committee was struggling to explain why the number 9 acc team should get in over VCU/Missouri St/St Marys. Now with the NET formula kept secret (so it won't be rigged like rpi was) they just move teams where they want to because no one can say that's what they are doing. Now they don't have to worry about people using unbiased facts to argue against the committee's eye test ($$)

Bingo. We have a winner.
12-16-2019 06:57 PM
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ShockerFever Offline
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 04:00 PM)Def Berkkat Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 03:23 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 01:34 PM)Def Berkkat Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 12:41 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 12:23 PM)Def Berkkat Wrote:  Maybe you should have titled the thread "look at me. look at me. my team is off to a good start".


Is that a better title for you?

I didn't start it so it don't matter none to me what you call it.

However, I relate it on the same level as pre-season ranking threads. What's the point? It's way too early to know who's going to be good and who's not.

It's numerically (app. 10 games) 1/3 of the way through the season but in reality it's really not.

Nobody's going to be playing three games in three days in January like you do in Nov-dec. Jan-Feb is when you find out who's who.

Your general premise is correct. However, WTF are we going to discuss here up until February? The America's Got Talent semifinalists?

Of course nobody knows how things will play out. Nobody is dumb enough to think this is how things are gonna be in March. But is a decent measure and gauge for how things are now. 1/3 of the way through the year and nearly 100% through non-con, there isn't much room for big jumps in certain metrics.

Funny how this is a thing this year. I don't remember you making that big of a deal about it in the previous years when Cincy was bringing in the attention..

Can somebody simply offer up their opinion without someone pooping themselves?

If there was a thread like this last year, I likely didn't comment on it as not to have to eat it later if the season went south for some reason.

Can you please explain your opinion again? That we aren’t allowed to talk about college basketball stuff until February on a message board?

EDIT: or until Cincinnati is good again?
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2019 07:01 PM by ShockerFever.)
12-16-2019 06:58 PM
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 12:27 PM)TigerBill Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 11:10 AM)JRR_IV Wrote:  Questionable to have Wichita State above Memphis at this point. Only 3 teams in the Top 50...


I'm okay with it. They've been excellent so far.

I couldn't be happier for us. 11th in the country with two starters out. The other guys are getting serious playing time. This will be good in the long run.
12-16-2019 07:41 PM
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 04:02 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  I disagree that NET is worse. I think NET is significantly better for deserving non-P5 teams. And I think it worked out that way when the bracket was announced last March. Note that I'm not saying NET is the answer to everything. But I think if you are a legitimately good non-P5 team, your NET will reflect it.

Liberty is #19 in NET being 12-0 beating a bunch of bad teams. I like NET's lack of bias.
12-16-2019 07:53 PM
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 01:34 PM)Def Berkkat Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 12:41 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 12:23 PM)Def Berkkat Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 12:09 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 12:07 PM)Def Berkkat Wrote:  OK...

but it's only important to be good by the 3/3 part of the year.

Cool, guess we just shouldn't have any conversations at all here except at the end of the year ....

OR is that only because Cincy sucks in this ranking that you have a problem with it being posted ...

Maybe you should have titled the thread "look at me. look at me. my team is off to a good start".


Is that a better title for you?

I didn't start it so it don't matter none to me what you call it.

However, I relate it on the same level as pre-season ranking threads. What's the point? It's way too early to know who's going to be good and who's not.

It's numerically (app. 10 games) 1/3 of the way through the season but in reality it's really not.

Nobody's going to be playing three games in three days in January like you do in Nov-dec. Jan-Feb is when you find out who's who.

You didn't mind extolling the virtues of Cincinnati football 1/3 of the way through the football season.

You had them as the best team in the AAC and were negative to us right up til the last minute. Now that your basketball team sucks you don't want anyone to talk about basketball. You UC guys sure are funny fellers.

Like I said before, you guys are great until you're not on top of the world. At least Memphis fans are consistent. We're always awnry.
12-16-2019 07:56 PM
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jedclampett Offline
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 04:14 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 03:54 PM)Foreverandever Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 03:25 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 01:55 PM)e-parade Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 12:36 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:  How is Stanford #9? Duquesne #20?

I honestly don't think the NET is better than the RPI. I know it's early, but still.

While Duquesne has played basically no one, they are one of only 4 undefeated teams in all of DI, and 7 of their 9 wins have come by at least 10 points. 5 of them have come by at least 20 points. Handily beat everyone on your schedule and good things will happen.

But they'll run into Dayton (twice), VCU (once), et al. in the A10 and lose some there. Really they'll end up helping out the conference by taking care of business OOC, because you can't do much better than going undefeated and winning by and average margin of just under 18 points.

So basically it gives the narrative for major teams to just schedule home cream puffs though the non-con, win all of those games by 30+, call it a "beat everyone on your schedule and good things will happen" show and call it a day.


Yes. This was made for the Syracuse's of the world. The middling power 5 teams who get gaudy records playing nobody at home and blowing them out, then go in conference and get moral victories and a couple upsets. Because these bad teams get rated higher the good teams in conference get a boost and higher metrics from playing them, meaning when those bad teams upset good teams the win is ranked even higher. Meanwhile the poor teams taking body bag games have lower metrics dragging down the one or two good teams in their league ratings, lowering their champs NCAA seed, because those one or two good teams are playing at the body bag game team's home court and are close games.

Which also explains why we are seeing some big time upsets and good games early in the tourney. This slow slide has been going on since they started trying to tweak the rpi because mid majors had figured out a way to "rig the system" and were getting too many teams in and the committee was struggling to explain why the number 9 acc team should get in over VCU/Missouri St/St Marys. Now with the NET formula kept secret (so it won't be rigged like rpi was) they just move teams where they want to because no one can say that's what they are doing. Now they don't have to worry about people using unbiased facts to argue against the committee's eye test ($$)

I surmise math department savants were busy figuring out how the NCAA derived NET. It is a fruitless endeavor because the NCAA can change whatever they want, when they want, and how they want with no external accountability and with (incredibly) nary a media complaint.

True.

The only caveat may be that the current NET, at least, appears to be matching up fairly well with several other ratings systems, when they are compared side by side, as in the newly updated page:

https://csnbbs.com/thread-889268.html

On the other hand, both the NET and Pomeroy (KenPom) have some notable outliers when compared against the Massey Composite (average of 26 different rating systems).

Because Massey Composite is an index of central tendency, it may be more accurate and, in particular, more reliable than specific ranking systems.

For example:

.............................NET......Massey Composite.....Pomeroy

5) Tulane 7-2.........#127...............#160...............#221

8) Houston 6-3........#68................#48.................#37

10) USF 6-4...........#176................#142..............#120
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2019 08:47 PM by jedclampett.)
12-16-2019 08:19 PM
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natibeast21 Offline
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
FYI, Cronin is 7-4 right now. Hard pass on taking him back.

Late game meltdowns are killing UC. I’ll give Brannen time.

Wednesday vs. Tennessee is huge for this OOC season for us though.
12-16-2019 10:38 PM
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JetFixer Offline
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
Just keep winning!! just keep winning!! just keep winning!!
12-16-2019 11:12 PM
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Fluke Offline
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 10:38 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  FYI, Cronin is 7-4 right now. Hard pass on taking him back.

Late game meltdowns are killing UC. I’ll give Brannen time.

Wednesday vs. Tennessee is huge for this OOC season for us though.

I mean not that I think you guys should want him back but his year one results mean nothing. Like when people on the tigers board we’re trying to say Bruce pearl wasn’t a good coach based on his first year auburn record.
12-17-2019 01:35 AM
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 11:28 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  We had a terrible start.

Having to rely on 2 true freshmen at Point Guard that most definitely would have either red-shirted or seen VERY few minutes hurt us, I think.

I think by the end of the year, now that we're starting to get healthier, we'll see a much better team. Having Robinson & Jackson back at PG for us is big. The silver lining thus far is that we found out that Newton (true freshman PG) is going to be an absolute stud for us down the road.

Really, really high on Suggs & Newton.

I don’t understand why ECU athletics have been so bad in the AAC. On paper it makes no sense. No barriers for entry. Good facilities. Good fanbase. Good recruiting area. Yet u legit have accomplished nothing. Not a shot, just confuses me. I guess just a string of bad hires Nx poor admin decisions. You would think ECU could slip and fall into at least a cew bowl games or an outside run at an NCAA bid.
12-17-2019 03:00 AM
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
(12-16-2019 12:10 PM)ShockerFever Wrote:  
(12-16-2019 11:10 AM)JRR_IV Wrote:  Questionable to have Wichita State above Memphis at this point. Only 3 teams in the Top 50...

lol it's not a poll. It's an analytics metric.

Jesus.

Who cares? I'm glad WSU is at #14...I'd be glad for any of our conference teams to be ranked highly, regardless of the relativity of where Memphis is ranked. Heck, we haven't even started conference play yet. Just would like to see the overall conference (especially those traditionally at the bottom) improve. Like, nobody outside the 150 would be really nice........

TM
12-17-2019 06:36 AM
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RE: NCAA NET Rankings and Resumes .. AKA Can we get Cronin back?
Tulsa's gonna barrel it's way to a CBI bid which we won't take because we have no money, but we'll say it's because we're above the CBI tourneys of the world.
12-17-2019 07:24 AM
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