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12/16/19 UPDATE: AAC Massey Composite, NET Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & Bracketogies
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STL_Wave Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Updated AAC Standings Plus RPI, BPI, & Sagarin ratings
(12-02-2019 06:02 PM)pesik Wrote:  
(12-02-2019 05:42 PM)STL_Wave Wrote:  
(12-02-2019 11:49 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(12-02-2019 03:38 AM)STL_Wave Wrote:  Tulane with a big game against Saint Louis this week, only real decent OOC game we got outside of our loss to Miss St.
Utah is decent. And if we beat Akron, we will almost definitely play Liberty the next day. They’re rated about the same (or better) than the Billikens.

According to RealTimeRPI

Miss St 43
SLU 65
Akron 94
Liberty 92 / Towson 181

Utah 141
Midd TN 245
Alcorn ST 276
Everyone else 300+

rpi is the only computer than doesnt use projective data...which you might like but at the same time, that makes it useless in till midseason (conference play)... you are better with a computer that uses projective data (like kenpom) and/or preseason polls (ignoring rpi is outdated)

liberty almost guaranteed to finish a top 50 team...utah likely ends up top 100 when its all said and done

akron likely to fall off to sub 150 or worse

saint louis is impossible to project..this was supposed to be a rebuilding year but are alredy outperforming expectations

According to KenPom


Miss St 42
SLU 112
Akron 101
Liberty 73 / Towson 146

Utah was 125
Midd TN 233
Alcorn ST 331

Pretty much the same and maybe even worse. Basically we better win out before conference.
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2019 06:15 PM by STL_Wave.)
12-02-2019 06:14 PM
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jedclampett Offline
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Post: #22
MyBB RE: Updated AAC Standings + RPI, BPI, Sagarin & Massey Composite ratings
.
UPDATED: MONDAY 12/2/19 6:50 PM EDT

UCF has moved into the top 100.

.
AAC STANDINGS...........Massey....Massey Composite...Pomeroy

1st) SMU 7-0..................#60................#77.................#85
2nd (tie) Memphis* 6-1....#49................#35................ #39
2nd (tie) Temple 6-1........#36................#44.................#64
2nd (tie) Tulane 6-1........#124...............#148...............#222
2nd (tie) Tulsa 6-1...........#96................#112...............#113
2nd (tie) Wichita St 6-1....#53................#41.................#51
7th (tie) Cincy 5-2...........#55............... #54.................#50
7th (tie) UConn 5-2.........#66................#65.................#53
7th (tie) UCF 5-2.............#65................#87................#102
10th) Houston 3-2...........#42................#46.................#32
11th) USF 3-4............... #159...............#185...............#145
12th) ECU 2-6............... #278...............#262...............#254

============================================

STANDINGS......RPI rank.....BPI rank.........Sagarin........RT Power

1) SMU..............#161..........#89...............#88..............#124
2) Memphis........#56............#91...............#25..............#87
2) Temple..........#24............#59...............#44..............#70
2) Tulane...........#215..........#144.............#143............#180
2) Tulsa.............#176..........#106.............#119............#108
2) Wichita St.......#36............#73...............#37.............#24
7) Cincy.............#47............#43...............#57..............#17
7) UConn...........#88............#53...............#60..............#120
7) UCF.............. #78........... #74...............#92..............#86
10) Houston.......#149...........#30...............#36..............#54
11) USF.............#327..........#122.............#202............#284
12) ECU.............#304..........#251.............#261............#274
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2019 08:38 PM by jedclampett.)
12-02-2019 07:18 PM
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jedclampett Offline
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Post: #23
RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
The conference strength of schedule has improved significantly through the Thanksgiving weekend/tournament games.

As a result of going 11-6 through the long weekend, against a number of quality teams, 66.6% (8 of 12) of AAC teams are now in the top 100, with up to 9 potential top 100 teams if Tulsa moves up a few notches.
12-02-2019 09:08 PM
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pesik Offline
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Post: #24
RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
usf play jekyll and hyde of if they want to be top 150 or sub 250 ...gets a good win vs furman today... soph guard (backup pg) xavier Castaneda has a breakout game and scores 18

there is a legitimate debate that usf would be better without rideau..he sees himself as the star when he should embrace that he is just the defense guy and leave it at that ..he is the good player on your team that has good individual skills but is actually detrimental to the team. theyd be less talented but better

how are you a sub 6'1 point guard and a senior, and can't make free throws...how are you a extremely ball dominant guard who can't shoot and also cant make FTs..while taking the most shots on your teams..how do you take 5 3s a game when you're a career 33% 3pt shooter
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2019 10:10 PM by pesik.)
12-02-2019 09:22 PM
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FadedCrown Offline
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Post: #25
RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
Don't get the hard on for RPI here.
12-02-2019 09:27 PM
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Post: #26
RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
(12-02-2019 09:22 PM)pesik Wrote:  usf play jekyll and hyde of if they want to be top 150 or sub 250 ...gets a good win vs furman today... soph guard (backup pg) xavier Castaneda has a breakout game and scores 18

there is a legitimate debate that usf would be better without rideau..he seems himself as the star when he should embrace that he is just the defense guy and leave it at that ..he is the good player on your team that has good individual skills but is actually detrimental to the team, theyd be less talented but better

how are you a sub 6'1 point guard and a senior, and can't make free throws...how are you a extremely ball dominant guard who can't shoot and also cant make FTs..while taking the most shots on your teams..how do you take 5 3s a game when you're a career 33% 3pt shooter

Meh.

He'll be better and fit better this year with out Yetna. His free throw woes are atrocious and will limit the Bulls. His last four free throws looked much better though and apparently they have adjusted his technique. Watching the game, USF is becoming a wing/guard dominated team, his ability to attack the rim and shut down offenses before they are initiated with his defense will make them tough. If Collins gets to playing how he was at the end of last year they will be decent. If they develop a post player who can score they will be tough.

All of which will make them very good when Yetna is back next year.
12-02-2019 10:08 PM
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jedclampett Offline
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Post: #27
RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
(12-02-2019 09:27 PM)FadedCrown Wrote:  Don't get the hard on for RPI here.

If the basis of your remark is that the RPI isn't rating the American as highly as the Massey Composite is (6 vs 8 top 100 American teams), then that's an observable fact. That's why so many different rating systems are included in the initial post above.

The RPI ratings continue to be of some interest to many readers because they are familiar and understandable to most fans (e.g., are highlighted in the CBS Sports conference standings page), are based on a fully transparent mathematical formula that permits comparisons across conferences, sports (FB & BB), seasons and decades, and are designed to reflect each team's strength of schedule.

--If the RPI were no longer of interest, sites such as realtimerpi would no longer get the numbers of hits that they continue to receive.

In addition, like the NET ratings (after January), the RPI ratings provide a useful contrast with the Massey Composite ratings, because they highlight the impact of strength of schedule on W-L records, margins of victory, etc. The Massey Composite is perhaps the most reliable indicator because it integrates data from 26 different rating systems. However, the NET and RPI are both of special interest because they aren't factored into the Massey Composite, and place highly contrasting emphases on scoring (NET) or SOS (RPI).

Later in the season, the discrepancies between Massey Composite, the NET, and the RPI will be of increasing interest, [u]especially among critics of the NET (including selection committee members, who used SOS over NET in picking the "last 8 teams in" last March).

[/u]--The Massey Composite rankings are likely to fall between the NET rankings (emphasizing scoring regardless of SOS) and the RPI rankings (emphasizing SOS over scoring).

Of further interest, the RPI rankings are very informative when compared to the later-season NET rankings, which have been strongly criticized for over-emphasizing scoring "efficiency" (FG%, FT%, and points per minute) - - a mathematical proxy that, by design, offsets (by overwhelming) the misleading "10 pt. scoring margin limitation" in the NET formula.

--The basis of this criticism has been made crystal clear as a result of the fact that some teams' 2018-19 NET ratings were boosted by as many as 80 rankings (e.g., from #110 to #30) because they hit a very high percentage of their shots and scored a huge number of points in numerous games against bottom 300 teams.

The RPI, which factors in strong SOS, as well as W-L records, and which is not strongly influenced by scoring margin or its highly-correlated proxy variable known as "scoring efficiency."

From this standpoint, when February approaches, the RPI is a useful corrective to the NET and similar rankings which emphasize scoring and winning percentages over strength of schedule.

The selection committee members are and will be continuing to monitor the discrepancies
between the NET and the other well recognized rating systems. It is most likely that they will, once again, use alternative ratings to balance out the imperfections of the NET formula, and that the formula will eventually have to be revised to include a much stronger adjustment for strength of schedule.

Fans of the game can apply the same logic in Jan/Feb/March by computing the mean (average) of the NET, Massey Composite, and RPI ratings.

--The NET, due to being stipulated by the NCAA as their key indicator, the Massey Composite due to being among the most reliable indicators by combining many (i.e., 26) different predictive ratings, and the RPI being included to correct the NET data with a stronger indicator of strength of schedule.

It is a working hypothesis, at this point, that the mean of NET, RPI, and Massey Composite rankings - - by virtue of incorporating the strengths of the three different rating systems, while reducing their discrepancies to statistical "noise" (i.e., "error variance") - - may be a substantially better predictor than the NET, the RPI, and most other individual rating systems.

--Whether or not the equally-weighted NET+RPI+Massey Composite Rankings will turn out to out-perform or under-perform the Massey Composite itself, as a predictor of late season team performances will remain to be seen.

--Until then, the "law of large numbers" suggests that the Massey Composite will tend to be a better and more reliable predictor of team performances than any of the non-composite ranking systems, especially if the 26 systems in the Massey Composite were selected on the basis of a well-informed methodological and statistical rationale.
(This post was last modified: 12-02-2019 11:52 PM by jedclampett.)
12-02-2019 11:30 PM
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StillJonesing Offline
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Post: #28
RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
(12-02-2019 09:27 PM)FadedCrown Wrote:  Don't get the hard on for RPI here.

RPI was king of the land and had a hand in helping decide NCAA teams for 39 years. It had years of evolution and tweaking to make it better. Most everyone understands what it was, it's strengths and weaknesses and most were comfortable with it until the NCAA rocked the boat and changed the primary systems.

Certainly the NCAA is now using NET for better or worse, but I'm not willing to completely dismiss RPI personally for a system that has only been around for a 1 year experiment and probably hasn't got all it's kinks out. There were many large discrepancies last year and if nothing else it's a good base to compare and another tool in the toolbox.

The fact the RPI was around for 40 years it allows you to compare your team this year under that formula all the way back to 1980 which is something you can't do under NET for 1 year , and all the others only go back about 20 years.
(This post was last modified: 12-03-2019 08:33 AM by StillJonesing.)
12-03-2019 08:24 AM
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bearcatmark Offline
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Post: #29
RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
(12-03-2019 08:24 AM)StillJonesing Wrote:  
(12-02-2019 09:27 PM)FadedCrown Wrote:  Don't get the hard on for RPI here.

RPI was king of the land and had a hand in helping decide NCAA teams for 39 years. It had years of evolution and tweaking to make it better. Most everyone understands what it was, it's strengths and weaknesses and most were comfortable with it until the NCAA rocked the boat and changed the primary systems.

Certainly the NCAA is now using NET for better or worse, but I'm not willing to completely dismiss RPI personally for a system that has only been around for a 1 year experiment and probably hasn't got all it's kinks out. There were many large discrepancies last year and if nothing else it's a good base to compare and another tool in the toolbox.

The fact the RPI was around for 40 years it allows you to compare your team this year under that formula all the way back to 1980 which is something you can't do under NET for 1 year , and all the others only go back about 20 years.

RPI was bad. It basically was a bad measure of schedule strength with a 25% bump for win loss record (eventually that bump was weighted for home/road/neutral). It was replaced because we have better systems. NET is kind of a weird, unnecessary compromise (particularly when you could do a composite of good measures), but it's light years better than RPI.
12-03-2019 09:07 AM
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StillJonesing Offline
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RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
(12-03-2019 09:07 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(12-03-2019 08:24 AM)StillJonesing Wrote:  
(12-02-2019 09:27 PM)FadedCrown Wrote:  Don't get the hard on for RPI here.

RPI was king of the land and had a hand in helping decide NCAA teams for 39 years. It had years of evolution and tweaking to make it better. Most everyone understands what it was, it's strengths and weaknesses and most were comfortable with it until the NCAA rocked the boat and changed the primary systems.

Certainly the NCAA is now using NET for better or worse, but I'm not willing to completely dismiss RPI personally for a system that has only been around for a 1 year experiment and probably hasn't got all it's kinks out. There were many large discrepancies last year and if nothing else it's a good base to compare and another tool in the toolbox.

The fact the RPI was around for 40 years it allows you to compare your team this year under that formula all the way back to 1980 which is something you can't do under NET for 1 year , and all the others only go back about 20 years.

RPI was bad. It basically was a bad measure of schedule strength with a 25% bump for win loss record (eventually that bump was weighted for home/road/neutral). It was replaced because we have better systems. NET is kind of a weird, unnecessary compromise (particularly when you could do a composite of good measures), but it's light years better than RPI.

I haven't really commented on NET, but regardless RPI has value. With 40 years of history to compare back your own teams and the fact it was the primary system in place for the NCAA for 39 years to help pick the tournament I think anyone is foolish to dismiss it totally regardless especially in the context when people are posting Massey, Sagarin, and Pomeroy. It's certainly still relevant as any of those or anything else out there while the first NET rankings hasn't been released.
(This post was last modified: 12-03-2019 09:47 AM by StillJonesing.)
12-03-2019 09:26 AM
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Stickboy46 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
8 teams between 35 and 87 in Massey composite. Conference season is going to be madness.
12-03-2019 12:00 PM
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FadedCrown Offline
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RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
While the RPI may have history, it does not make it useful. The RPi is fundamentally flawed in a lot of ways, but there is one critical one.

1) Your RPI can fall for beating a team by a lot.

Let's say last year when Gonzaga beat Portland on the road by 23. The Zags RPI will go down as a result because Portland was 7-25.
Opponent's win percentages is 50% of the RPI. (25% WP, 50% OWP, 25% OOWP).

This flaw was bad for mid-majors, as their conferences usually have bottom-150 teams in them, and they have to play them twice, or even three times.

2) The RPI was easily gamed.

One of the ways to have a good RPI to schedule teams at home that were easy to beat but had good records. Examples from last year are...

- Abilene Christian - 27-7, 152 KenPom
- Old Dominion - 26-9, 113 KenPom
- Montana - 26-9, 137 KenPom

Any good team would be favored by 10+ in these games, but they gain more RPI than beating a 75th Miami FL team on the road, because Miami went 14-18.

Also, UTEP is 2nd in RPI right now but 106 in KP. Northern Arizona is 8th in RPI but 300th in KenPom. Granted it's early December but this proves a point of not using RPI in the first 2 months of the season. RPI does not have a preseason factor which is crucial for the first 2 months of the season.
(This post was last modified: 12-03-2019 01:39 PM by FadedCrown.)
12-03-2019 01:38 PM
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Stickboy46 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
New ESPN Bracketology
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketb...acketology

Only 2 AAC teams in BUT 3 teams in the First and next 4 out. So 5 teams within striking distance

Memphis - 6 seed
Houston - 12 seed
Cincy - 1st team out
Wichita - 3rd team out
Temple - 6th team out
12-03-2019 05:34 PM
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Miggy Offline
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Post: #34
RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
(12-03-2019 05:34 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  New ESPN Bracketology
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketb...acketology

Only 2 AAC teams in BUT 3 teams in the First and next 4 out. So 5 teams within striking distance

Memphis - 6 seed
Houston - 12 seed
Cincy - 1st team out
Wichita - 3rd team out
Temple - 6th team out

Meaningless this time of year.
12-03-2019 07:54 PM
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Stickboy46 Offline
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RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
(12-03-2019 07:54 PM)Miggy Wrote:  
(12-03-2019 05:34 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  New ESPN Bracketology
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketb...acketology

Only 2 AAC teams in BUT 3 teams in the First and next 4 out. So 5 teams within striking distance

Memphis - 6 seed
Houston - 12 seed
Cincy - 1st team out
Wichita - 3rd team out
Temple - 6th team out

Meaningless this time of year.
Yes and no. Perception is important. If the perception is that the AAC has 5-6 tourney worthy teams throughout the year, it will help when they start having selection conversations about inclusion and seeding.

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12-03-2019 09:28 PM
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RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
(12-02-2019 03:01 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  
(12-02-2019 11:02 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Only positives for ECU right now is we have 5 straight home games against pretty weak teams and have both JUCO guards back so maybe something improves. Dooley better be hunting the transfer market because he's staring an 8-10 win season straight in the face.

Oh good, that ought to pick that 250 RPI right up. Especially when you invariably lose a couple of those.

And true to form, East Carolina adopts the bottom feeder schedule, then loses to one of the bottom feeders. A double-digit loss to Chopin' State. It's a multi-decade pattern now right?
12-03-2019 10:00 PM
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RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
(12-03-2019 05:34 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  New ESPN Bracketology
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketb...acketology

Only 2 AAC teams in BUT 3 teams in the First and next 4 out. So 5 teams within striking distance

Memphis - 6 seed
Houston - 12 seed
Cincy - 1st team out
Wichita - 3rd team out
Temple - 6th team out

That's a discernable improvement since preseason when there were two in and only one among the first 8 out. Some of these teams are likely to improve as the season unfolds. Temple's a good example, with transfers Scott and Forrester (newly waivered) suddenly becoming impact players, with Alani Moore playing better than ever, and with Damian Dunn becoming available to play soon.
12-04-2019 06:31 AM
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Miggy Offline
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RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
(12-03-2019 09:28 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  
(12-03-2019 07:54 PM)Miggy Wrote:  
(12-03-2019 05:34 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  New ESPN Bracketology
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketb...acketology

Only 2 AAC teams in BUT 3 teams in the First and next 4 out. So 5 teams within striking distance

Memphis - 6 seed
Houston - 12 seed
Cincy - 1st team out
Wichita - 3rd team out
Temple - 6th team out

Meaningless this time of year.
Yes and no. Perception is important. If the perception is that the AAC has 5-6 tourney worthy teams throughout the year, it will help when they start having selection conversations about inclusion and seeding.

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Perception will be determined mostly on who has a good conference record, and who does not. Conference games haven’t been played it.
12-04-2019 09:39 AM
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Stickboy46 Offline
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Post: #39
RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
(12-04-2019 09:39 AM)Miggy Wrote:  
(12-03-2019 09:28 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  
(12-03-2019 07:54 PM)Miggy Wrote:  
(12-03-2019 05:34 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  New ESPN Bracketology
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketb...acketology

Only 2 AAC teams in BUT 3 teams in the First and next 4 out. So 5 teams within striking distance

Memphis - 6 seed
Houston - 12 seed
Cincy - 1st team out
Wichita - 3rd team out
Temple - 6th team out

Meaningless this time of year.
Yes and no. Perception is important. If the perception is that the AAC has 5-6 tourney worthy teams throughout the year, it will help when they start having selection conversations about inclusion and seeding.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

Perception will be determined mostly on who has a good conference record, and who does not. Conference games haven’t been played it.

No it will not ... It will be based on Q1 and Q2 wins ... and then the judgment of the selection tourney. Perception throughout the year matters. If the perception of the conference is that the conference is really strong going into conference season, those games matter more. If it's that the conference is weak, then they don't matter as much.

Conference record is actually one of the least determining factors for the AAC in getting a bid.
12-04-2019 09:43 AM
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Miggy Offline
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RE: UPDATED AAC Massey Composite, Pomeroy, Sagarin, RPI, BPI, & RT Power ratings
(12-04-2019 09:43 AM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 09:39 AM)Miggy Wrote:  
(12-03-2019 09:28 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  
(12-03-2019 07:54 PM)Miggy Wrote:  
(12-03-2019 05:34 PM)Stickboy46 Wrote:  New ESPN Bracketology
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketb...acketology

Only 2 AAC teams in BUT 3 teams in the First and next 4 out. So 5 teams within striking distance

Memphis - 6 seed
Houston - 12 seed
Cincy - 1st team out
Wichita - 3rd team out
Temple - 6th team out

Meaningless this time of year.
Yes and no. Perception is important. If the perception is that the AAC has 5-6 tourney worthy teams throughout the year, it will help when they start having selection conversations about inclusion and seeding.

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Perception will be determined mostly on who has a good conference record, and who does not. Conference games haven’t been played it.

No it will not ... It will be based on Q1 and Q2 wins ... and then the judgment of the selection tourney. Perception throughout the year matters. If the perception of the conference is that the conference is really strong going into conference season, those games matter more. If it's that the conference is weak, then they don't matter as much.

Conference record is actually one of the least determining factors for the AAC in getting a bid.

Don’t you think it’s obvious that AAC is strong given how well so many teams have started their season? Now we can add SMU to the mix.
12-04-2019 10:13 AM
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