(11-13-2019 01:16 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-09-2019 05:25 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-09-2019 02:46 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Penny was a High School coach and gave 10k to Wiseman's mother (after his sophmore year) to move him from Nashville to Memphis to play HS ball for him at East High in Memphis. He has known Wiseman's family for many years.

Penny also donated 1 million to Memphis way back in 2008, Before he was even a JR high or AAU coach. The NCAA knew all of this over the summer before Wiseman committed to Memphis and cleared him to play for Penny and Memphis knowing all of this.

Now out of nowhere the NCAA calls his eligibility into question.

This does not seem right by the NCAA. They are totally screwing this kid over and punish Penny for things he did before he was ever a HS coach or a coach at Memphis.

Penny was obviously a Memphis booster.

The NCAA says that when they cleared Wiseman to play in May there was no evidence that Penny had paid moving expenses for him, that evidence emerged recently and prompted the decision.

Show me a link where the NCAA said that. The TRO request that was granted says the opposite, that the NCAA was told by Memphis about the move payment before it ruled Wiseman eligible on May 29, after a 5 month standard investigation.

Then the NCAA came back and said they made an error, but per their "error policy," would let the original ruling stand. Wiseman enrolled at Memphis.

Then somebody contacted the NCAA, and they reopened the case. Nobody knows for sure, but one local columnist said he was told it was UK and Duke.

Memphis assisted in the investigation again, but if anything was found, nothing was said. Then the NCAA sent a letter on Oct. 30 saying Wiseman was ineligible, b/c they reconsidered their earlier ruling. If new info arose, I'm guessing that the NCAA realized Penny was a booster, but I'm guessing until that comes out in court.

For some reason, Memphis decided to play Wiseman, anyway.

A hearing on the injunction is scheduled for next Monday. The two sides could settle, or fight it out in court. Wiseman wins, nothing happens. Wiseman loses, Memphis could get killed.

Two sides settle, nothing else likely happens.

As for the moving expenses, under TSSAA rules, it was legal. Penny was a HS coach at the time, with no idea he would become the Memphis coach. Tubby had been there only one year.

Penny is a booster, and when he became coach at Memphis and recruited Wiseman, then the payment became an issue, but the TRO that was issued says the NCAA knew of the moving expenses before ruling Wiseman eligible in May.

I'm not going to chase down all the links again. They are all over the Memphis and AAC boards here.

TripleA, thanks for fighting the fight and trying to combat the uninformed.

People act like Penny's million dollar donation was done in private. That is not the case. It was very public at the time and all over the media. There were no secrets there. If Penny is a booster now, why was he not a booster in May? And then the NCAA letter that doesn't cite any new evidence, only that they "re-interpreted" the information. None of this makes any sense. I think the NCAA screwed the pooch on this one.

Memphis may get nailed but I think the university feels like they have to force the NCAA's hand in moving forward. Can you imagine if Memphis would have sat Wiseman and let the appeals process play out? The NCAA probably would not have made a decision until the season was over.

(11-13-2019 01:16 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-09-2019 05:25 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-09-2019 02:46 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Penny was a High School coach and gave 10k to Wiseman's mother (after his sophmore year) to move him from Nashville to Memphis to play HS ball for him at East High in Memphis. He has known Wiseman's family for many years.

Penny also donated 1 million to Memphis way back in 2008, Before he was even a JR high or AAU coach. The NCAA knew all of this over the summer before Wiseman committed to Memphis and cleared him to play for Penny and Memphis knowing all of this.

Now out of nowhere the NCAA calls his eligibility into question.

This does not seem right by the NCAA. They are totally screwing this kid over and punish Penny for things he did before he was ever a HS coach or a coach at Memphis.

Penny was obviously a Memphis booster.

The NCAA says that when they cleared Wiseman to play in May there was no evidence that Penny had paid moving expenses for him, that evidence emerged recently and prompted the decision.

Show me a link where the NCAA said that. The TRO request that was granted says the opposite, that the NCAA was told by Memphis about the move payment before it ruled Wiseman eligible on May 29, after a 5 month standard investigation.

Then the NCAA came back and said they made an error, but per their "error policy," would let the original ruling stand. Wiseman enrolled at Memphis.

Then somebody contacted the NCAA, and they reopened the case. Nobody knows for sure, but one local columnist said he was told it was UK and Duke.

Memphis assisted in the investigation again, but if anything was found, nothing was said. Then the NCAA sent a letter on Oct. 30 saying Wiseman was ineligible, b/c they reconsidered their earlier ruling. If new info arose, I'm guessing that the NCAA realized Penny was a booster, but I'm guessing until that comes out in court.

For some reason, Memphis decided to play Wiseman, anyway.

A hearing on the injunction is scheduled for next Monday. The two sides could settle, or fight it out in court. Wiseman wins, nothing happens. Wiseman loses, Memphis could get killed.

Two sides settle, nothing else likely happens.

As for the moving expenses, under TSSAA rules, it was legal. Penny was a HS coach at the time, with no idea he would become the Memphis coach. Tubby had been there only one year.

Penny is a booster, and when he became coach at Memphis and recruited Wiseman, then the payment became an issue, but the TRO that was issued says the NCAA knew of the moving expenses before ruling Wiseman eligible in May.

I'm not going to chase down all the links again. They are all over the Memphis and AAC boards here.

Actually, I got that information from a statement made by Memphis the day Wiseman was ruled ineligible. Quoting from the linked article:

"Initially, after a joint standard eligibility review by the University and the NCAA, as is common for all high-profile incoming student-athletes, James was declared eligible by the NCAA in May 2019. However, based on information that necessitated a deeper investigation, the University began to work alongside the NCAA in investigating the matter. After several months of interviews and, after a review of documentation, it was determined that in the summer of 2017, while James was a high school student and prospective student-athlete, Penny Hardaway provided $11,500 in moving expenses to assist the Wiseman family in their relocation to Memphis, unbeknownst to James."

See? Declared eligible in May, but then upon *further investigation* it was found that Penny provided the money. That's from Memphis's own statement!

As for the TSSAA, it's interesting that a judge recently ruled that the TSSAA was correct to declare Wiseman ineligible to play for his High School, a ruling of ineligibility that Wiseman avoided by getting a temporary injunction then as well.

Wiseman sued the NCAA because it worked in High School -when he was declared ineligible in High School, he sued, got an injunction, and played, knowing a final court ruling might take months by which time he's played, showed off his skills, and moved on to the next level. From the second linked article:

"The ruling on Oct. 3 gave the high school association a victory in a nearly two-year court battle regarding the eligibility of both athletes. The TSSAA ruled both ineligible for the 2017-18 basketball season. However, a court injunction granted by Kyle led to the court battle and allowed both to play that season. East went on to win the Class AAA state championship."

Doing the same thing right now.

I bet on the AAC board there's a big pro-Memphis/anti-NCAA feeding frenzy. It's a big joke, and if Memphis gets away with it then it is literally anything goes as far as recruiting violations are concerned.

Hopefully, now that Memphis has played Wiseman on the road, outside the Memphis judge's jurisdiction, the NCAA will ban Memphis from the tournament.


https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...535040001/

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...573195001/

(11-13-2019 08:49 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 01:16 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-09-2019 05:25 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-09-2019 02:46 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Penny was a High School coach and gave 10k to Wiseman's mother (after his sophmore year) to move him from Nashville to Memphis to play HS ball for him at East High in Memphis. He has known Wiseman's family for many years.

Penny also donated 1 million to Memphis way back in 2008, Before he was even a JR high or AAU coach. The NCAA knew all of this over the summer before Wiseman committed to Memphis and cleared him to play for Penny and Memphis knowing all of this.

Now out of nowhere the NCAA calls his eligibility into question.

This does not seem right by the NCAA. They are totally screwing this kid over and punish Penny for things he did before he was ever a HS coach or a coach at Memphis.

Penny was obviously a Memphis booster.

The NCAA says that when they cleared Wiseman to play in May there was no evidence that Penny had paid moving expenses for him, that evidence emerged recently and prompted the decision.

Show me a link where the NCAA said that. The TRO request that was granted says the opposite, that the NCAA was told by Memphis about the move payment before it ruled Wiseman eligible on May 29, after a 5 month standard investigation.

Then the NCAA came back and said they made an error, but per their "error policy," would let the original ruling stand. Wiseman enrolled at Memphis.

Then somebody contacted the NCAA, and they reopened the case. Nobody knows for sure, but one local columnist said he was told it was UK and Duke.

Memphis assisted in the investigation again, but if anything was found, nothing was said. Then the NCAA sent a letter on Oct. 30 saying Wiseman was ineligible, b/c they reconsidered their earlier ruling. If new info arose, I'm guessing that the NCAA realized Penny was a booster, but I'm guessing until that comes out in court.

For some reason, Memphis decided to play Wiseman, anyway.

A hearing on the injunction is scheduled for next Monday. The two sides could settle, or fight it out in court. Wiseman wins, nothing happens. Wiseman loses, Memphis could get killed.

Two sides settle, nothing else likely happens.

As for the moving expenses, under TSSAA rules, it was legal. Penny was a HS coach at the time, with no idea he would become the Memphis coach. Tubby had been there only one year.

Penny is a booster, and when he became coach at Memphis and recruited Wiseman, then the payment became an issue, but the TRO that was issued says the NCAA knew of the moving expenses before ruling Wiseman eligible in May.

I'm not going to chase down all the links again. They are all over the Memphis and AAC boards here.

Actually, I got that information from a statement made by Memphis the day Wiseman was ruled ineligible. Quoting from the linked article:

"Initially, after a joint standard eligibility review by the University and the NCAA, as is common for all high-profile incoming student-athletes, James was declared eligible by the NCAA in May 2019. However, based on information that necessitated a deeper investigation, the University began to work alongside the NCAA in investigating the matter. After several months of interviews and, after a review of documentation, it was determined that in the summer of 2017, while James was a high school student and prospective student-athlete, Penny Hardaway provided $11,500 in moving expenses to assist the Wiseman family in their relocation to Memphis, unbeknownst to James."

See? Declared eligible in May, but then upon *further investigation* it was found that Penny provided the money. That's from Memphis's own statement!

As for the TSSAA, it's interesting that a judge recently ruled that the TSSAA was correct to declare Wiseman ineligible to play for his High School, a ruling of ineligibility that Wiseman avoided by getting a temporary injunction then as well.

Wiseman sued the NCAA because it worked in High School -when he was declared ineligible in High School, he sued, got an injunction, and played, knowing a final court ruling might take months by which time he's played, showed off his skills, and moved on to the next level. From the second linked article:

"The ruling on Oct. 3 gave the high school association a victory in a nearly two-year court battle regarding the eligibility of both athletes. The TSSAA ruled both ineligible for the 2017-18 basketball season. However, a court injunction granted by Kyle led to the court battle and allowed both to play that season. East went on to win the Class AAA state championship."

Doing the same thing right now.

I bet on the AAC board there's a big pro-Memphis/anti-NCAA feeding frenzy. It's a big joke, and if Memphis gets away with it then it is literally anything goes as far as recruiting violations are concerned.

Hopefully, now that Memphis has played Wiseman on the road, outside the Memphis judge's jurisdiction, the NCAA will ban Memphis from the tournament.


https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...535040001/

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...573195001/

That seems to be the way college athletics is headed anyway. It appears that momentum has swung inexorably in the direction of "anything goes" when it comes to providing financial inducements to athletes. Basically, it will become a free market, with the highest bidders getting the best athletes.

That won't fundamentally alter the competitive balance, though, because the wealthiest schools already have that advantage. The only thing that would likely change is that the NCAA wouldn't spend as much money on compliance issues.

(11-13-2019 08:49 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 01:16 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-09-2019 05:25 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-09-2019 02:46 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Penny was a High School coach and gave 10k to Wiseman's mother (after his sophmore year) to move him from Nashville to Memphis to play HS ball for him at East High in Memphis. He has known Wiseman's family for many years.

Penny also donated 1 million to Memphis way back in 2008, Before he was even a JR high or AAU coach. The NCAA knew all of this over the summer before Wiseman committed to Memphis and cleared him to play for Penny and Memphis knowing all of this.

Now out of nowhere the NCAA calls his eligibility into question.

This does not seem right by the NCAA. They are totally screwing this kid over and punish Penny for things he did before he was ever a HS coach or a coach at Memphis.

Penny was obviously a Memphis booster.

The NCAA says that when they cleared Wiseman to play in May there was no evidence that Penny had paid moving expenses for him, that evidence emerged recently and prompted the decision.

Show me a link where the NCAA said that. The TRO request that was granted says the opposite, that the NCAA was told by Memphis about the move payment before it ruled Wiseman eligible on May 29, after a 5 month standard investigation.

Then the NCAA came back and said they made an error, but per their "error policy," would let the original ruling stand. Wiseman enrolled at Memphis.

Then somebody contacted the NCAA, and they reopened the case. Nobody knows for sure, but one local columnist said he was told it was UK and Duke.

Memphis assisted in the investigation again, but if anything was found, nothing was said. Then the NCAA sent a letter on Oct. 30 saying Wiseman was ineligible, b/c they reconsidered their earlier ruling. If new info arose, I'm guessing that the NCAA realized Penny was a booster, but I'm guessing until that comes out in court.

For some reason, Memphis decided to play Wiseman, anyway.

A hearing on the injunction is scheduled for next Monday. The two sides could settle, or fight it out in court. Wiseman wins, nothing happens. Wiseman loses, Memphis could get killed.

Two sides settle, nothing else likely happens.

As for the moving expenses, under TSSAA rules, it was legal. Penny was a HS coach at the time, with no idea he would become the Memphis coach. Tubby had been there only one year.

Penny is a booster, and when he became coach at Memphis and recruited Wiseman, then the payment became an issue, but the TRO that was issued says the NCAA knew of the moving expenses before ruling Wiseman eligible in May.

I'm not going to chase down all the links again. They are all over the Memphis and AAC boards here.

Actually, I got that information from a statement made by Memphis the day Wiseman was ruled ineligible. Quoting from the linked article:

"Initially, after a joint standard eligibility review by the University and the NCAA, as is common for all high-profile incoming student-athletes, James was declared eligible by the NCAA in May 2019. However, based on information that necessitated a deeper investigation, the University began to work alongside the NCAA in investigating the matter. After several months of interviews and, after a review of documentation, it was determined that in the summer of 2017, while James was a high school student and prospective student-athlete, Penny Hardaway provided $11,500 in moving expenses to assist the Wiseman family in their relocation to Memphis, unbeknownst to James."

See? Declared eligible in May, but then upon *further investigation* it was found that Penny provided the money. That's from Memphis's own statement!

As for the TSSAA, it's interesting that a judge recently ruled that the TSSAA was correct to declare Wiseman ineligible to play for his High School, a ruling of ineligibility that Wiseman avoided by getting a temporary injunction then as well.

Wiseman sued the NCAA because it worked in High School -when he was declared ineligible in High School, he sued, got an injunction, and played, knowing a final court ruling might take months by which time he's played, showed off his skills, and moved on to the next level. From the second linked article:

"The ruling on Oct. 3 gave the high school association a victory in a nearly two-year court battle regarding the eligibility of both athletes. The TSSAA ruled both ineligible for the 2017-18 basketball season. However, a court injunction granted by Kyle led to the court battle and allowed both to play that season. East went on to win the Class AAA state championship."

Doing the same thing right now.

I bet on the AAC board there's a big pro-Memphis/anti-NCAA feeding frenzy. It's a big joke, and if Memphis gets away with it then it is literally anything goes as far as recruiting violations are concerned.

Hopefully, now that Memphis has played Wiseman on the road, outside the Memphis judge's jurisdiction, the NCAA will ban Memphis from the tournament.


https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...535040001/

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...573195001/

First of all, the NCAA didn't say that, which is the link I asked for. The Memphis press release said it.

Between the TRO and the Memphis statement, one is a legal document that the attorney has to certify to the court as being accurate, and the other is a press release from a nominal defendant. Either way, it won't change the other legal arguments in the case.

Wiseman's attorney has said on air a couple of times that the NCAA knew in May. We'll see.

As for the TSSAA, Wiseman was ruled ineligible due to a "prior coaching link," meaning Penny was his AAU coach, which is against the HS rules, but has zero to do with the current lawsuit.

As for what's really going to happen, I would bet they settle, with paying back the money and Wiseman sitting a few games.

If it stays in court, I think Wiseman wins, and if they have to, they can drag this out for years, long after Wiseman turns pro.

If Wiseman wins in court, Memphis will likely be protected. If not, they can have the season vacated, etc.

Also, TN state and Congressional leaders have started an investigation of the NCAA's inconsistent sanctions process, so it's possible this could lead to reform similar to the NIL legislation.

(11-13-2019 09:56 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 08:49 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 01:16 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-09-2019 05:25 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-09-2019 02:46 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Penny was a High School coach and gave 10k to Wiseman's mother (after his sophmore year) to move him from Nashville to Memphis to play HS ball for him at East High in Memphis. He has known Wiseman's family for many years.

Penny also donated 1 million to Memphis way back in 2008, Before he was even a JR high or AAU coach. The NCAA knew all of this over the summer before Wiseman committed to Memphis and cleared him to play for Penny and Memphis knowing all of this.

Now out of nowhere the NCAA calls his eligibility into question.

This does not seem right by the NCAA. They are totally screwing this kid over and punish Penny for things he did before he was ever a HS coach or a coach at Memphis.

Penny was obviously a Memphis booster.

The NCAA says that when they cleared Wiseman to play in May there was no evidence that Penny had paid moving expenses for him, that evidence emerged recently and prompted the decision.

Show me a link where the NCAA said that. The TRO request that was granted says the opposite, that the NCAA was told by Memphis about the move payment before it ruled Wiseman eligible on May 29, after a 5 month standard investigation.

Then the NCAA came back and said they made an error, but per their "error policy," would let the original ruling stand. Wiseman enrolled at Memphis.

Then somebody contacted the NCAA, and they reopened the case. Nobody knows for sure, but one local columnist said he was told it was UK and Duke.

Memphis assisted in the investigation again, but if anything was found, nothing was said. Then the NCAA sent a letter on Oct. 30 saying Wiseman was ineligible, b/c they reconsidered their earlier ruling. If new info arose, I'm guessing that the NCAA realized Penny was a booster, but I'm guessing until that comes out in court.

For some reason, Memphis decided to play Wiseman, anyway.

A hearing on the injunction is scheduled for next Monday. The two sides could settle, or fight it out in court. Wiseman wins, nothing happens. Wiseman loses, Memphis could get killed.

Two sides settle, nothing else likely happens.

As for the moving expenses, under TSSAA rules, it was legal. Penny was a HS coach at the time, with no idea he would become the Memphis coach. Tubby had been there only one year.

Penny is a booster, and when he became coach at Memphis and recruited Wiseman, then the payment became an issue, but the TRO that was issued says the NCAA knew of the moving expenses before ruling Wiseman eligible in May.

I'm not going to chase down all the links again. They are all over the Memphis and AAC boards here.

Actually, I got that information from a statement made by Memphis the day Wiseman was ruled ineligible. Quoting from the linked article:

"Initially, after a joint standard eligibility review by the University and the NCAA, as is common for all high-profile incoming student-athletes, James was declared eligible by the NCAA in May 2019. However, based on information that necessitated a deeper investigation, the University began to work alongside the NCAA in investigating the matter. After several months of interviews and, after a review of documentation, it was determined that in the summer of 2017, while James was a high school student and prospective student-athlete, Penny Hardaway provided $11,500 in moving expenses to assist the Wiseman family in their relocation to Memphis, unbeknownst to James."

See? Declared eligible in May, but then upon *further investigation* it was found that Penny provided the money. That's from Memphis's own statement!

As for the TSSAA, it's interesting that a judge recently ruled that the TSSAA was correct to declare Wiseman ineligible to play for his High School, a ruling of ineligibility that Wiseman avoided by getting a temporary injunction then as well.

Wiseman sued the NCAA because it worked in High School -when he was declared ineligible in High School, he sued, got an injunction, and played, knowing a final court ruling might take months by which time he's played, showed off his skills, and moved on to the next level. From the second linked article:

"The ruling on Oct. 3 gave the high school association a victory in a nearly two-year court battle regarding the eligibility of both athletes. The TSSAA ruled both ineligible for the 2017-18 basketball season. However, a court injunction granted by Kyle led to the court battle and allowed both to play that season. East went on to win the Class AAA state championship."

Doing the same thing right now.

I bet on the AAC board there's a big pro-Memphis/anti-NCAA feeding frenzy. It's a big joke, and if Memphis gets away with it then it is literally anything goes as far as recruiting violations are concerned.

Hopefully, now that Memphis has played Wiseman on the road, outside the Memphis judge's jurisdiction, the NCAA will ban Memphis from the tournament.


https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...535040001/

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...573195001/

First of all, the NCAA didn't say that, which is the link I asked for. The Memphis press release said it.

Between the TRO and the Memphis statement, one is a legal document that the attorney has to certify to the court as being accurate, and the other is a press release from a nominal defendant. Either way, it won't change the other legal arguments in the case.

Seriously? A statement from MEMPHIS, the school that the NCAA is saying Wiseman is ineligible to play for, is even MORE damning than one from the NCAA!

We would ordinarily expect the NCAA, the entity saying Wiseman can't play for Memphis, to say "we ruled him eligible to play for Memphis in May, but then changed our minds in October because new information was found", and Memphis to respond with "No, the NCAA had all the information in May that they have now, so there's no basis for them changing their mind".

But no, Memphis itself agrees that *further investigation* turned up new information about the situation. Good grief.

Contradicts the claim by the other guy I responded to that "now, out of nowhere" the NCAA calls his eligibility in to question, and its MEMPHIS itself that contradicts it. Good grief to the 10th power.

Also, it is disingenuous to say the TSSAA situation is irrelevant when you were the one who brought TSSAA up. I never would have, but I'm glad you did, as a quick check revealed the recent court ruling in favor of the TSSAA over Wiseman.

And I think it is relevant because it shows a pattern - Wiseman is ruled ineligible, Wiseman sues for a temporary injunction so he can play, knowing the team can rack up wins (good for Penny!) and Wiseman can show off his skills (good for Wiseman!) while the legal machinery grinds away.

Did it in high school, now doing it in college. And by the time the final ruling comes down (and as of now Wiseman is 0 for 1 on those), he's moved on to college, and then the NBA.

(11-13-2019 10:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 09:56 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 08:49 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 01:16 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-09-2019 05:25 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Penny was obviously a Memphis booster.

The NCAA says that when they cleared Wiseman to play in May there was no evidence that Penny had paid moving expenses for him, that evidence emerged recently and prompted the decision.

Show me a link where the NCAA said that. The TRO request that was granted says the opposite, that the NCAA was told by Memphis about the move payment before it ruled Wiseman eligible on May 29, after a 5 month standard investigation.

Then the NCAA came back and said they made an error, but per their "error policy," would let the original ruling stand. Wiseman enrolled at Memphis.

Then somebody contacted the NCAA, and they reopened the case. Nobody knows for sure, but one local columnist said he was told it was UK and Duke.

Memphis assisted in the investigation again, but if anything was found, nothing was said. Then the NCAA sent a letter on Oct. 30 saying Wiseman was ineligible, b/c they reconsidered their earlier ruling. If new info arose, I'm guessing that the NCAA realized Penny was a booster, but I'm guessing until that comes out in court.

For some reason, Memphis decided to play Wiseman, anyway.

A hearing on the injunction is scheduled for next Monday. The two sides could settle, or fight it out in court. Wiseman wins, nothing happens. Wiseman loses, Memphis could get killed.

Two sides settle, nothing else likely happens.

As for the moving expenses, under TSSAA rules, it was legal. Penny was a HS coach at the time, with no idea he would become the Memphis coach. Tubby had been there only one year.

Penny is a booster, and when he became coach at Memphis and recruited Wiseman, then the payment became an issue, but the TRO that was issued says the NCAA knew of the moving expenses before ruling Wiseman eligible in May.

I'm not going to chase down all the links again. They are all over the Memphis and AAC boards here.

Actually, I got that information from a statement made by Memphis the day Wiseman was ruled ineligible. Quoting from the linked article:

"Initially, after a joint standard eligibility review by the University and the NCAA, as is common for all high-profile incoming student-athletes, James was declared eligible by the NCAA in May 2019. However, based on information that necessitated a deeper investigation, the University began to work alongside the NCAA in investigating the matter. After several months of interviews and, after a review of documentation, it was determined that in the summer of 2017, while James was a high school student and prospective student-athlete, Penny Hardaway provided $11,500 in moving expenses to assist the Wiseman family in their relocation to Memphis, unbeknownst to James."

See? Declared eligible in May, but then upon *further investigation* it was found that Penny provided the money. That's from Memphis's own statement!

As for the TSSAA, it's interesting that a judge recently ruled that the TSSAA was correct to declare Wiseman ineligible to play for his High School, a ruling of ineligibility that Wiseman avoided by getting a temporary injunction then as well.

Wiseman sued the NCAA because it worked in High School -when he was declared ineligible in High School, he sued, got an injunction, and played, knowing a final court ruling might take months by which time he's played, showed off his skills, and moved on to the next level. From the second linked article:

"The ruling on Oct. 3 gave the high school association a victory in a nearly two-year court battle regarding the eligibility of both athletes. The TSSAA ruled both ineligible for the 2017-18 basketball season. However, a court injunction granted by Kyle led to the court battle and allowed both to play that season. East went on to win the Class AAA state championship."

Doing the same thing right now.

I bet on the AAC board there's a big pro-Memphis/anti-NCAA feeding frenzy. It's a big joke, and if Memphis gets away with it then it is literally anything goes as far as recruiting violations are concerned.

Hopefully, now that Memphis has played Wiseman on the road, outside the Memphis judge's jurisdiction, the NCAA will ban Memphis from the tournament.


https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...535040001/

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...573195001/

First of all, the NCAA didn't say that, which is the link I asked for. The Memphis press release said it.

Between the TRO and the Memphis statement, one is a legal document that the attorney has to certify to the court as being accurate, and the other is a press release from a nominal defendant. Either way, it won't change the other legal arguments in the case.

Seriously? A statement from MEMPHIS, the school that the NCAA is saying Wiseman is ineligible to play for, is even MORE damning than one from the NCAA!

We would ordinarily expect the NCAA, the entity saying Wiseman can't play for Memphis, to say "we ruled him eligible to play for Memphis in May, but then changed our minds in October because new information was found", and Memphis to respond with "No, the NCAA had all the information in May that they have now, so there's no basis for them changing their mind".

But no, Memphis itself agrees that *further investigation* turned up new information about the situation. Good grief.

Contradicts the claim by the other guy I responded to that "now, out of nowhere" the NCAA calls his eligibility in to question, and its MEMPHIS itself that contradicts it. Good grief to the 10th power.

Also, it is disingenuous to say the TSSAA situation is irrelevant when you were the one who brought TSSAA up. I never would have, but I'm glad you did, as a quick check revealed the recent court ruling in favor of the TSSAA over Wiseman.

And I think it is relevant because it shows a pattern - Wiseman is ruled ineligible, Wiseman sues for a temporary injunction so he can play, knowing the team can rack up wins (good for Penny!) and Wiseman can show off his skills (good for Wiseman!) while the legal machinery grinds away.

Did it in high school, now doing it in college. And by the time the final ruling comes down (and as of now Wiseman is 0 for 1 on those), he's moved on to college, and then the NBA.

My point was the NCAA has said zero. YOU said it was the NCAA, not me. I was correcting your statement. That was a Memphis press release. Those have errors all the time. And the attorney is sworn to give an accurate statement in the TRO request. So it's not the slam dunk you think it is.

Plus, I'm not arguing that Penny isn't a booster or that what he did isn't against NCAA rules, so that difference doesn't matter.

I think if they go to trial, Wiseman wins, b/c there are many more arguments that have nothing to do with that one, and have to do with the way the NCAA is inconsistent with its rulings and sanctions applications.

Plus, I think the most likely outcome is they settle, b/c there was an impermissible benefit, but the NCAA is getting hammered in the court of public opinion, including an investigation started in the TN legislature into NCAA corruption.

https://apnews.com/1e5190409cca4a76b58deacef01fb199

“The NCAA is going to be divulging everything in order win this case,” Buckner said. “And are you sure you want all that stuff out there? Are you sure you want how coach helped out financially and probably other ways. That’s something people don’t understand. Once you get into a legal process, it’s not just going be one-sided. Your side is going to be exposed as well.”

To me, I think this is the most important aspect of the case. The NCAA ruled Wiseman ineligible (regardless of what was said over summer). Memphis said "NO" to that, and continues to play Wiseman anyways. Regardless of what they release with regards to Wiseman, the NCAA could very well go over the entire Memphis Athletic Department with fine-tooth comb and likely find any number of infractions if it so wished (as likely would be for any athletic department).

For Memphis, the interesting debate would be is it really worth fighting and clawing for a single student-athlete (that could, potentially, forfeit any number of games during the regular season, and include a postseason ban - which Bilas said), or does Wiseman/Hardaway/Memphis, just decide the fight has far too many long-term negative effects for the school and program - to which Wiseman declares early for the NBA Draft and begins his training.

Will be interesting to see unfold.

(11-13-2019 12:02 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 10:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 09:56 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 08:49 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 01:16 AM)TripleA Wrote:  Show me a link where the NCAA said that. The TRO request that was granted says the opposite, that the NCAA was told by Memphis about the move payment before it ruled Wiseman eligible on May 29, after a 5 month standard investigation.

Then the NCAA came back and said they made an error, but per their "error policy," would let the original ruling stand. Wiseman enrolled at Memphis.

Then somebody contacted the NCAA, and they reopened the case. Nobody knows for sure, but one local columnist said he was told it was UK and Duke.

Memphis assisted in the investigation again, but if anything was found, nothing was said. Then the NCAA sent a letter on Oct. 30 saying Wiseman was ineligible, b/c they reconsidered their earlier ruling. If new info arose, I'm guessing that the NCAA realized Penny was a booster, but I'm guessing until that comes out in court.

For some reason, Memphis decided to play Wiseman, anyway.

A hearing on the injunction is scheduled for next Monday. The two sides could settle, or fight it out in court. Wiseman wins, nothing happens. Wiseman loses, Memphis could get killed.

Two sides settle, nothing else likely happens.

As for the moving expenses, under TSSAA rules, it was legal. Penny was a HS coach at the time, with no idea he would become the Memphis coach. Tubby had been there only one year.

Penny is a booster, and when he became coach at Memphis and recruited Wiseman, then the payment became an issue, but the TRO that was issued says the NCAA knew of the moving expenses before ruling Wiseman eligible in May.

I'm not going to chase down all the links again. They are all over the Memphis and AAC boards here.

Actually, I got that information from a statement made by Memphis the day Wiseman was ruled ineligible. Quoting from the linked article:

"Initially, after a joint standard eligibility review by the University and the NCAA, as is common for all high-profile incoming student-athletes, James was declared eligible by the NCAA in May 2019. However, based on information that necessitated a deeper investigation, the University began to work alongside the NCAA in investigating the matter. After several months of interviews and, after a review of documentation, it was determined that in the summer of 2017, while James was a high school student and prospective student-athlete, Penny Hardaway provided $11,500 in moving expenses to assist the Wiseman family in their relocation to Memphis, unbeknownst to James."

See? Declared eligible in May, but then upon *further investigation* it was found that Penny provided the money. That's from Memphis's own statement!

As for the TSSAA, it's interesting that a judge recently ruled that the TSSAA was correct to declare Wiseman ineligible to play for his High School, a ruling of ineligibility that Wiseman avoided by getting a temporary injunction then as well.

Wiseman sued the NCAA because it worked in High School -when he was declared ineligible in High School, he sued, got an injunction, and played, knowing a final court ruling might take months by which time he's played, showed off his skills, and moved on to the next level. From the second linked article:

"The ruling on Oct. 3 gave the high school association a victory in a nearly two-year court battle regarding the eligibility of both athletes. The TSSAA ruled both ineligible for the 2017-18 basketball season. However, a court injunction granted by Kyle led to the court battle and allowed both to play that season. East went on to win the Class AAA state championship."

Doing the same thing right now.

I bet on the AAC board there's a big pro-Memphis/anti-NCAA feeding frenzy. It's a big joke, and if Memphis gets away with it then it is literally anything goes as far as recruiting violations are concerned.

Hopefully, now that Memphis has played Wiseman on the road, outside the Memphis judge's jurisdiction, the NCAA will ban Memphis from the tournament.


https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...535040001/

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...573195001/

First of all, the NCAA didn't say that, which is the link I asked for. The Memphis press release said it.

Between the TRO and the Memphis statement, one is a legal document that the attorney has to certify to the court as being accurate, and the other is a press release from a nominal defendant. Either way, it won't change the other legal arguments in the case.

Seriously? A statement from MEMPHIS, the school that the NCAA is saying Wiseman is ineligible to play for, is even MORE damning than one from the NCAA!

We would ordinarily expect the NCAA, the entity saying Wiseman can't play for Memphis, to say "we ruled him eligible to play for Memphis in May, but then changed our minds in October because new information was found", and Memphis to respond with "No, the NCAA had all the information in May that they have now, so there's no basis for them changing their mind".

But no, Memphis itself agrees that *further investigation* turned up new information about the situation. Good grief.

Contradicts the claim by the other guy I responded to that "now, out of nowhere" the NCAA calls his eligibility in to question, and its MEMPHIS itself that contradicts it. Good grief to the 10th power.

Also, it is disingenuous to say the TSSAA situation is irrelevant when you were the one who brought TSSAA up. I never would have, but I'm glad you did, as a quick check revealed the recent court ruling in favor of the TSSAA over Wiseman.

And I think it is relevant because it shows a pattern - Wiseman is ruled ineligible, Wiseman sues for a temporary injunction so he can play, knowing the team can rack up wins (good for Penny!) and Wiseman can show off his skills (good for Wiseman!) while the legal machinery grinds away.

Did it in high school, now doing it in college. And by the time the final ruling comes down (and as of now Wiseman is 0 for 1 on those), he's moved on to college, and then the NBA.

My point was the NCAA has said zero. YOU said it was the NCAA, not me. I was correcting your statement. That was a Memphis press release. Those have errors all the time.

Yes, but you were correcting it in a way that was MORE damning than if I were right about the NCAA saying it. I'm happy to stand corrected about that, LOL.

And in fact, Memphis says they *worked with* the NCAA after May to dig up more information.

And now we have Memphis fans arguing against their own school about what the school did with the NCAA after May to dig up more information?

You can't make this up.

Bigger picture: Penny looks like trouble, doesn't he? Came in with zero track record as a college coach, he's just a recruit magnet, he's basically hitched his coaching wagon to this Wiseman kid at the HS and college level.

With Memphis's past history of major NCAA trouble, you'd think they'd know better?

(11-13-2019 12:25 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  https://apnews.com/1e5190409cca4a76b58deacef01fb199

“The NCAA is going to be divulging everything in order win this case,” Buckner said. “And are you sure you want all that stuff out there? Are you sure you want how coach helped out financially and probably other ways. That’s something people don’t understand. Once you get into a legal process, it’s not just going be one-sided. Your side is going to be exposed as well.”

To me, I think this is the most important aspect of the case. The NCAA ruled Wiseman ineligible (regardless of what was said over summer). Memphis said "NO" to that, and continues to play Wiseman anyways.

Well to be fair, Memphis has no choice but to play Wiseman at home games, as that falls within the jurisdiction of the court order enjoining the NCAA ruling in Memphis. Memphis, like everyone else, has to follow court orders.

Road games though, are a different matter.

(11-13-2019 01:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 12:02 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 10:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 09:56 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 08:49 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Actually, I got that information from a statement made by Memphis the day Wiseman was ruled ineligible. Quoting from the linked article:

"Initially, after a joint standard eligibility review by the University and the NCAA, as is common for all high-profile incoming student-athletes, James was declared eligible by the NCAA in May 2019. However, based on information that necessitated a deeper investigation, the University began to work alongside the NCAA in investigating the matter. After several months of interviews and, after a review of documentation, it was determined that in the summer of 2017, while James was a high school student and prospective student-athlete, Penny Hardaway provided $11,500 in moving expenses to assist the Wiseman family in their relocation to Memphis, unbeknownst to James."

See? Declared eligible in May, but then upon *further investigation* it was found that Penny provided the money. That's from Memphis's own statement!

As for the TSSAA, it's interesting that a judge recently ruled that the TSSAA was correct to declare Wiseman ineligible to play for his High School, a ruling of ineligibility that Wiseman avoided by getting a temporary injunction then as well.

Wiseman sued the NCAA because it worked in High School -when he was declared ineligible in High School, he sued, got an injunction, and played, knowing a final court ruling might take months by which time he's played, showed off his skills, and moved on to the next level. From the second linked article:

"The ruling on Oct. 3 gave the high school association a victory in a nearly two-year court battle regarding the eligibility of both athletes. The TSSAA ruled both ineligible for the 2017-18 basketball season. However, a court injunction granted by Kyle led to the court battle and allowed both to play that season. East went on to win the Class AAA state championship."

Doing the same thing right now.

I bet on the AAC board there's a big pro-Memphis/anti-NCAA feeding frenzy. It's a big joke, and if Memphis gets away with it then it is literally anything goes as far as recruiting violations are concerned.

Hopefully, now that Memphis has played Wiseman on the road, outside the Memphis judge's jurisdiction, the NCAA will ban Memphis from the tournament.


https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...535040001/

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s...573195001/

First of all, the NCAA didn't say that, which is the link I asked for. The Memphis press release said it.

Between the TRO and the Memphis statement, one is a legal document that the attorney has to certify to the court as being accurate, and the other is a press release from a nominal defendant. Either way, it won't change the other legal arguments in the case.

Seriously? A statement from MEMPHIS, the school that the NCAA is saying Wiseman is ineligible to play for, is even MORE damning than one from the NCAA!

We would ordinarily expect the NCAA, the entity saying Wiseman can't play for Memphis, to say "we ruled him eligible to play for Memphis in May, but then changed our minds in October because new information was found", and Memphis to respond with "No, the NCAA had all the information in May that they have now, so there's no basis for them changing their mind".

But no, Memphis itself agrees that *further investigation* turned up new information about the situation. Good grief.

Contradicts the claim by the other guy I responded to that "now, out of nowhere" the NCAA calls his eligibility in to question, and its MEMPHIS itself that contradicts it. Good grief to the 10th power.

Also, it is disingenuous to say the TSSAA situation is irrelevant when you were the one who brought TSSAA up. I never would have, but I'm glad you did, as a quick check revealed the recent court ruling in favor of the TSSAA over Wiseman.

And I think it is relevant because it shows a pattern - Wiseman is ruled ineligible, Wiseman sues for a temporary injunction so he can play, knowing the team can rack up wins (good for Penny!) and Wiseman can show off his skills (good for Wiseman!) while the legal machinery grinds away.

Did it in high school, now doing it in college. And by the time the final ruling comes down (and as of now Wiseman is 0 for 1 on those), he's moved on to college, and then the NBA.

My point was the NCAA has said zero. YOU said it was the NCAA, not me. I was correcting your statement. That was a Memphis press release. Those have errors all the time.

Yes, but you were correcting it in a way that was MORE damning than if I were right about the NCAA saying it. I'm happy to stand corrected about that, LOL.

And in fact, Memphis says they *worked with* the NCAA after May to dig up more information.

And now we have Memphis fans arguing against their own school about what the school did with the NCAA after May to dig up more information?

You can't make this up.

Bigger picture: Penny looks like trouble, doesn't he? Came in with zero track record as a college coach, he's just a recruit magnet, he's basically hitched his coaching wagon to this Wiseman kid at the HS and college level.

With Memphis's past history of major NCAA trouble, you'd think they'd know better?

I'm not arguing against Memphis. I'm saying two statements are out there in public, and only one can be true, and if you measure a court filing against a press release, you would find that usually there are more inaccuracies in press releases.

But I also said that it doesn't matter when the payment was discovered, other than to make it easier for Wiseman to win, b/c there are several other legal avenues where Wiseman can win.

And again, I'm not arguing that there is NOT a rules violation. I'm simply saying that there should be a fair and equitable penalty (or settlement), or that there is a good chance Wiseman wins, and the NCAA is enjoined from any further punishment to Memphis.

Keep laughing. We'll see how it ends.

(11-13-2019 12:25 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  https://apnews.com/1e5190409cca4a76b58deacef01fb199

“The NCAA is going to be divulging everything in order win this case,” Buckner said. “And are you sure you want all that stuff out there? Are you sure you want how coach helped out financially and probably other ways. That’s something people don’t understand. Once you get into a legal process, it’s not just going be one-sided. Your side is going to be exposed as well.”

To me, I think this is the most important aspect of the case. The NCAA ruled Wiseman ineligible (regardless of what was said over summer). Memphis said "NO" to that, and continues to play Wiseman anyways. Regardless of what they release with regards to Wiseman, the NCAA could very well go over the entire Memphis Athletic Department with fine-tooth comb and likely find any number of infractions if it so wished (as likely would be for any athletic department).

For Memphis, the interesting debate would be is it really worth fighting and clawing for a single student-athlete (that could, potentially, forfeit any number of games during the regular season, and include a postseason ban - which Bilas said), or does Wiseman/Hardaway/Memphis, just decide the fight has far too many long-term negative effects for the school and program - to which Wiseman declares early for the NBA Draft and begins his training.

Will be interesting to see unfold.

Apparently, Memphis already knows what is there, since they assisted with both investigations, and they went ahead with supporting the lawsuit and playing Wiseman.

And I would bet that the NCAA doesn't want a lawsuit and subpoenas pulling out past cases and questioning their sanctioning decisions, or lack thereof.

Especially since they haven't been faring too well with other fights, such as NIL.

(11-13-2019 02:16 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 01:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 12:02 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 10:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 09:56 AM)TripleA Wrote:  First of all, the NCAA didn't say that, which is the link I asked for. The Memphis press release said it.

Between the TRO and the Memphis statement, one is a legal document that the attorney has to certify to the court as being accurate, and the other is a press release from a nominal defendant. Either way, it won't change the other legal arguments in the case.

Seriously? A statement from MEMPHIS, the school that the NCAA is saying Wiseman is ineligible to play for, is even MORE damning than one from the NCAA!

We would ordinarily expect the NCAA, the entity saying Wiseman can't play for Memphis, to say "we ruled him eligible to play for Memphis in May, but then changed our minds in October because new information was found", and Memphis to respond with "No, the NCAA had all the information in May that they have now, so there's no basis for them changing their mind".

But no, Memphis itself agrees that *further investigation* turned up new information about the situation. Good grief.

Contradicts the claim by the other guy I responded to that "now, out of nowhere" the NCAA calls his eligibility in to question, and its MEMPHIS itself that contradicts it. Good grief to the 10th power.

Also, it is disingenuous to say the TSSAA situation is irrelevant when you were the one who brought TSSAA up. I never would have, but I'm glad you did, as a quick check revealed the recent court ruling in favor of the TSSAA over Wiseman.

And I think it is relevant because it shows a pattern - Wiseman is ruled ineligible, Wiseman sues for a temporary injunction so he can play, knowing the team can rack up wins (good for Penny!) and Wiseman can show off his skills (good for Wiseman!) while the legal machinery grinds away.

Did it in high school, now doing it in college. And by the time the final ruling comes down (and as of now Wiseman is 0 for 1 on those), he's moved on to college, and then the NBA.

My point was the NCAA has said zero. YOU said it was the NCAA, not me. I was correcting your statement. That was a Memphis press release. Those have errors all the time.

Yes, but you were correcting it in a way that was MORE damning than if I were right about the NCAA saying it. I'm happy to stand corrected about that, LOL.

And in fact, Memphis says they *worked with* the NCAA after May to dig up more information.

And now we have Memphis fans arguing against their own school about what the school did with the NCAA after May to dig up more information?

You can't make this up.

Bigger picture: Penny looks like trouble, doesn't he? Came in with zero track record as a college coach, he's just a recruit magnet, he's basically hitched his coaching wagon to this Wiseman kid at the HS and college level.

With Memphis's past history of major NCAA trouble, you'd think they'd know better?

Keep laughing. We'll see how it ends.

FWIW, I am making zero predictions about how any of it ends up - who the court will rule for in the end, whether Wiseman continues to play or not, whether the NCAA ends up punishing Memphis, whether Memphis wins a national title and Penny becomes the new Coach K, none of it.

What I am laughing at is the apparent spectacle of Memphis fans arguing with their own school about what Memphis did with the NCAA after May.

That is pretty funny, IMHO.

(11-13-2019 02:23 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 02:16 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 01:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 12:02 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 10:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Seriously? A statement from MEMPHIS, the school that the NCAA is saying Wiseman is ineligible to play for, is even MORE damning than one from the NCAA!

We would ordinarily expect the NCAA, the entity saying Wiseman can't play for Memphis, to say "we ruled him eligible to play for Memphis in May, but then changed our minds in October because new information was found", and Memphis to respond with "No, the NCAA had all the information in May that they have now, so there's no basis for them changing their mind".

But no, Memphis itself agrees that *further investigation* turned up new information about the situation. Good grief.

Contradicts the claim by the other guy I responded to that "now, out of nowhere" the NCAA calls his eligibility in to question, and its MEMPHIS itself that contradicts it. Good grief to the 10th power.

Also, it is disingenuous to say the TSSAA situation is irrelevant when you were the one who brought TSSAA up. I never would have, but I'm glad you did, as a quick check revealed the recent court ruling in favor of the TSSAA over Wiseman.

And I think it is relevant because it shows a pattern - Wiseman is ruled ineligible, Wiseman sues for a temporary injunction so he can play, knowing the team can rack up wins (good for Penny!) and Wiseman can show off his skills (good for Wiseman!) while the legal machinery grinds away.

Did it in high school, now doing it in college. And by the time the final ruling comes down (and as of now Wiseman is 0 for 1 on those), he's moved on to college, and then the NBA.

My point was the NCAA has said zero. YOU said it was the NCAA, not me. I was correcting your statement. That was a Memphis press release. Those have errors all the time.

Yes, but you were correcting it in a way that was MORE damning than if I were right about the NCAA saying it. I'm happy to stand corrected about that, LOL.

And in fact, Memphis says they *worked with* the NCAA after May to dig up more information.

And now we have Memphis fans arguing against their own school about what the school did with the NCAA after May to dig up more information?

You can't make this up.

Bigger picture: Penny looks like trouble, doesn't he? Came in with zero track record as a college coach, he's just a recruit magnet, he's basically hitched his coaching wagon to this Wiseman kid at the HS and college level.

With Memphis's past history of major NCAA trouble, you'd think they'd know better?

Keep laughing. We'll see how it ends.

FWIW, I am making zero predictions about how any of it ends up - who the court will rule for in the end, whether Wiseman continues to play or not, whether the NCAA ends up punishing Memphis, whether Memphis wins a national title and Penny becomes the new Coach K, none of it.

What I am laughing at is the apparent spectacle of Memphis fans arguing with their own school about what Memphis did with the NCAA after May.

That is pretty funny, IMHO.

You obviously missed my edit, so I'll post it again:

I'm not arguing against Memphis. I'm saying two statements are out there in public, and only one can be true, and if you measure a court filing against a press release, you would find that usually there are more inaccuracies in press releases.

But I also said that it doesn't matter when the payment was discovered, other than to make it easier for Wiseman to win, b/c there are several other legal avenues where Wiseman can win.

And again, I'm not arguing that there is NOT a rules violation. I'm simply saying that there should be a fair and equitable penalty (or settlement), or that there is a good chance Wiseman wins, and the NCAA is enjoined from any further punishment to Memphis.

And yes, you have been laughing about this whole thing from the beginning. Including the OP, long before I said a word.

Quo, here is a good example of competing conflicting statements in the public domain, and thus the danger of relying on whatever side you pick.

NCAA:

“The university chose to play him and ultimately is responsible for ensuring its student-athletes are eligible to play,” the NCAA wrote on Twitter while Wiseman played his first game under a court order.

https://apnews.com/1e5190409cca4a76b58deacef01fb199

Straight from the court order Monday:

"IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that the Nominal Defendant, University of Memphis, is hereby restrained and enjoined from withholding the plaintiff from intercollegiate competition as a member of the men’s basketball team on the basis of the NCAA decision, and that the University of Memphis is hereby authorized and allowed to play Mr. Wiseman as the coaching staff deems appropriate."

(A Memphis attorney sent me this, so I don't have the link, but the TRO is on threads on this site).

So, the NCAA (and much of the national media) is wrong about Memphis choosing to play Wiseman in the face of sanctions, and the media saying Memphis went rogue on them, and "gave the NCAA double birds."

Also, the U of M press release made it sound like it was a university decision to play Wiseman.

Nope. The court ordered Memphis not to withhold Wiseman on the basis of the NCAA decision.

That's why I say believe court filings over press releases. Or even over NCAA Twitter declarations.

(11-13-2019 03:21 PM)TripleA Wrote:  Quo, here is a good example of competing conflicting statements in the public domain, and thus the danger of relying on whatever side you pick.

NCAA:

“The university chose to play him and ultimately is responsible for ensuring its student-athletes are eligible to play,” the NCAA wrote on Twitter while Wiseman played his first game under a court order.

https://apnews.com/1e5190409cca4a76b58deacef01fb199

Straight from the court order Monday:

"IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that the Nominal Defendant, University of Memphis, is hereby restrained and enjoined from withholding the plaintiff from intercollegiate competition as a member of the men’s basketball team on the basis of the NCAA decision, and that the University of Memphis is hereby authorized and allowed to play Mr. Wiseman as the coaching staff deems appropriate."

(A Memphis attorney sent me this, so I don't have the link, but the TRO is on threads on this site).

So, the NCAA (and much of the national media) is wrong about Memphis choosing to play Wiseman in the face of sanctions, and the media saying Memphis went rogue on them, and "gave the NCAA double birds."

Also, the U of M press release made it sound like it was a university decision to play Wiseman.

Nope. The court ordered Memphis not to withhold Wiseman on the basis of the NCAA decision.

That's why I say believe court filings over press releases. Or even over NCAA Twitter declarations.

I don't see the conflicting statement here. The NCAA says the university chose to play Wiseman. It did exactly that, as Wiseman can't play if the coaches choose not to play him. Now true, if they chose not to play him on the basis of the NCAA decision, then they would be violating the court order and would have to answer to the judge about that. But Memphis did choose to comply with the court order and disregard the NCAA ruling. That's a choice. It's like if my probation office says "don't go into a bar, or you are going back to jail", I can still choose to go into a bar, I just have to pay the price.

The NCAA is just saying that by complying with the court order over its ruling, Memphis may have to pay the price for that in the realm of the NCAA.

That said, I agree the choice isn't your typical free one, as Memphis is under the gun of the court order. It's a choice, but a coerced one. For that reason, I don't think the NCAA would be right to sanction Memphis for playing Wiseman at home, only if he plays in road games, as the Memphis court wouldn't seem to have jurisdiction over what happens outside of Memphis. But that's too legally technical for me to know for sure.

All that said, not sure what this has to do with the Memphis statement that it helped the NCAA conduct further investigations in to Wiseman's eligibility after May. You want to dismiss that as a "press release", but press releases are the university speaking, and usually are only to be dismissed as propaganda if they are self-serving. In this case, the self-serving thing for Memphis to do would have been to deny that the NCAA dug up any new information after May, and certainly not with their help, which gives the release added credibility. Has Memphis withdrawn the press release?

(11-13-2019 06:23 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-13-2019 03:21 PM)TripleA Wrote:  Quo, here is a good example of competing conflicting statements in the public domain, and thus the danger of relying on whatever side you pick.

NCAA:

“The university chose to play him and ultimately is responsible for ensuring its student-athletes are eligible to play,” the NCAA wrote on Twitter while Wiseman played his first game under a court order.

https://apnews.com/1e5190409cca4a76b58deacef01fb199

Straight from the court order Monday:

"IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that the Nominal Defendant, University of Memphis, is hereby restrained and enjoined from withholding the plaintiff from intercollegiate competition as a member of the men’s basketball team on the basis of the NCAA decision, and that the University of Memphis is hereby authorized and allowed to play Mr. Wiseman as the coaching staff deems appropriate."

(A Memphis attorney sent me this, so I don't have the link, but the TRO is on threads on this site).

So, the NCAA (and much of the national media) is wrong about Memphis choosing to play Wiseman in the face of sanctions, and the media saying Memphis went rogue on them, and "gave the NCAA double birds."

Also, the U of M press release made it sound like it was a university decision to play Wiseman.

Nope. The court ordered Memphis not to withhold Wiseman on the basis of the NCAA decision.

That's why I say believe court filings over press releases. Or even over NCAA Twitter declarations.

I don't see the conflicting statement here. The NCAA says the university chose to play Wiseman. It did exactly that, as Wiseman can't play if the coaches choose not to play him. Now true, if they chose not to play him on the basis of the NCAA decision, then they would be violating the court order and would have to answer to the judge about that. But Memphis did choose to comply with the court order and disregard the NCAA ruling. That's a choice. It's like if my probation office says "don't go into a bar, or you are going back to jail", I can still choose to go into a bar, I just have to pay the price.

The NCAA is just saying that by complying with the court order over its ruling, Memphis may have to pay the price for that in the realm of the NCAA.

That said, I agree the choice isn't your typical free one, as Memphis is under the gun of the court order. It's a choice, but a coerced one. For that reason, I don't think the NCAA would be right to sanction Memphis for playing Wiseman at home, only if he plays in road games, as the Memphis court wouldn't seem to have jurisdiction over what happens outside of Memphis. But that's too legally technical for me to know for sure.

All that said, not sure what this has to do with the Memphis statement that it helped the NCAA conduct further investigations in to Wiseman's eligibility after May. You want to dismiss that as a "press release", but press releases are the university speaking, and usually are only to be dismissed as propaganda if they are self-serving. In this case, the self-serving thing for Memphis to do would have been to deny that the NCAA dug up any new information after May, and certainly not with their help, which gives the release added credibility. Has Memphis withdrawn the press release?

So I discovered why there is a conflict between the TRO and the Memphis statement.

Between January and May, Penny and Wiseman's mom both told the NCAA about the moving payment, but Penny didn't tell Memphis about it until after May.

That's why Fishman's TRO request and the Memphis release said different things about the timing.

But it's all moot now, b/c Wiseman's lawyers filed a non-suit this morning, meaning they withdraw the original lawsuit with option to re-open, if a fair & equitable settlement is not reached.

Word from local media is a settlement has been reached, and will be announced soon. Meanwhile, the U of M released a new statement saying Wiseman is ineligible, and will practice but sit out games until a settlement is made.

My guess is 3 to 6 games, plus pay back the moving expenses.

End of story coming soon.

Memphis East could forfeit its HS title over this Wiseman story.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket...tate-title

(11-14-2019 12:11 PM)TripleA Wrote:  So I discovered why there is a conflict between the TRO and the Memphis statement.

Between January and May, Penny and Wiseman's mom both told the NCAA about the moving payment, but Penny didn't tell Memphis about it until after May.

That's why Fishman's TRO request and the Memphis release said different things about the timing.

The NCAA does not take obstruction lightly. Penny will be held to account for withholding this information. I expect he'll be sanctioned personally.

(11-14-2019 01:23 PM)CougarRed Wrote:  

(11-14-2019 12:11 PM)TripleA Wrote:  So I discovered why there is a conflict between the TRO and the Memphis statement.

Between January and May, Penny and Wiseman's mom both told the NCAA about the moving payment, but Penny didn't tell Memphis about it until after May.

That's why Fishman's TRO request and the Memphis release said different things about the timing.

The NCAA does not take obstruction lightly. Penny will be held to account for withholding this information. I expect he'll be sanctioned personally.

Dude, read that again. Penny told the NCAA about the payment BEFORE they ruled the first time. He simply neglected to tell the university. The NCAA doesn't care about that, as long as they knew.