If you were looking to add a MWC school to a conference, how would you rank the 12 MWC schools? Factor in everything - football, basketball, market size, alumni, academics, olympics.

But don't factor in geography. i.e. Hawai'i is too far from everyone else, or preferring Air Force over SDSU because Air Force is closer to your conference.

Also, where would BYU fit in?

Here's how I would rank them:

1) BYU - good at both major sports, large fanbase
2) San Diego State - good at both major sports
gap
3) Boise - football is the only positive thing, but it's a big positive
gap
All really close:
4) Colorado State - biggest alumni base of #4-9
5) Air Force - a wild card; great national reputation but it's a small school with little local pull
6) Hawai'i
7) UNLV
8) Fresno State
9) Nevada
10) New Mexico - similar to the 5 ranked right above it, but in a smaller state

big gap

11) Utah State - 3rd most popular school in a small state
gap
12) San Jose State
13) Wyoming - just too small

I'm ranking these as attractive conference additions but ignoring any geographical considerations.

1. BYU - best all around program; strong fan support
2. San Diego St. - best all around program in the MWC; strong fan support; solid academic institution
3. Colorado St. - best research university in the MWC; potential in the Denver market; needs better fan support
4. Boise - strong football offset by relatively weak overall athletic program and low-quality academics (if football became average, Boise would crater down towards the bottom third of this list)
5. Air Force - elite academic institution but with a low ceiling for athletic prowess; strong nationwide fan support
6. Hawaii - state flagship; small but decent market; good fan support; logistical challenges; decent academics
7. UNLV - strong basketball tradition; new NFL stadium may strengthen football program; middling academics; large market
8. New Mexico - state flagship institution; strong basketball; weak football; middling academics
9. Nevada - state flagship in a medium market; good basketball, some football history; middling academics
10. Wyoming - state flagship; small market; little success in either major sport, but flagship status counts for something
11. Utah St - good basketball; improving football; small market
12. Fresno St. - football has some big wins but isn't very consistent; weak overall athletic dept; medium market; low academics
13. San Jose St. - really not much going on; they should be much better than they are; located in a giant market but no one cares

I think with Hawaii you have to factor in geography. It's one thing to go a state or two out of your footprint; it's another thing entirely to jump half an ocean to add a school. But playing within the parameters of the exercise:

BYU is the obvious bell cow though unless the conference is a P5, they're not interested, thanks for playing. Of the MWC schools, San Diego State and Colorado State are the strongest adds, but don't overlook UNLV (big, nationally relevant and growing market that is already an important sports city and is only getting more so with the Raiders inbound). Otherwise, I don't see any of the others generating serious interest from the P5 or even the AAC, outside a football-only membership for Boise State or Air Force.

I think many people who criticize Boise (the city) have never actually been there. It's not NYC or LA. But I don't see why people think Boise is small.....the metro area is like 700,000. And the city proper is bigger than major cities like Birmingham, Alabama.

(10-15-2019 12:02 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  I think with Hawaii you have to factor in geography. It's one thing to go a state or two out of your footprint; it's another thing entirely to jump half an ocean to add a school. But playing within the parameters of the exercise:

BYU is the obvious bell cow though unless the conference is a P5, they're not interested, thanks for playing. Of the MWC schools, San Diego State and Colorado State are the strongest adds, but don't overlook UNLV (big, nationally relevant and growing market that is already an important sports city and is only getting more so with the Raiders inbound). Otherwise, I don't see any of the others generating serious interest from the P5 or even the AAC, outside a football-only membership for Boise State or Air Force.

I know the travel costs and logistics are tough with Hawaii, but they can actually provide real value to a conference, if utilized correctly:

1) the conference can OWN the Week 0 schedule, with nationally-televised games to a college football audience that is starved for games. I'm really surprised that the MWC hasn't jumped on this opportunity more. Arizona at Hawaii was the only MWC game during Week 0 this year. Air Force, Fresno, SDSU, and SJSU each could have moved a game to Week 0. Missed opportunity for nationally-televised games in the limelight.

2) extra inventory because of the 13th game allowance - up to 5 additional annual games of inventory for the conference television contract.

3) easily fill the late-night kickoff time slot for nationally-televised games, but with reasonable local kickoff times. (10pm ET is 5pm Hawaii time).

4) Hawaii has decent recruiting prospects compared to its relatively small size. Usually about 15-20 P5-level players each year.

5) Hawaii brings a decent bowl game to a conference lineup.

The default option for any conference is to do nothing. Any candidate has to offer a very compelling case to get a conference to move past its own disagreements and do something. What are things that every conference member can agree they want more of? Money and status.

So who adds money and status among those schools? Football first (consistent football over the long haul, not just last year or last week), basketball a distant second. Anything else (like academics, for the "status" component) is a lesser factor.

1. BYU
2. Boise State

(Extremely large gap here.)

3. San Diego State
4. Fresno State
(gap)
5, Air Force (football only)
6. Hawai'i (though distance is a deal breaker)
(gap)
7. New Mexico
8. Colorado State (marking them down because of state's obsession with Broncos)
9. Nevada
10. Utah State
11. Wyoming
12. UNLV (football will be even more invisible there after the Raiders arrive)
13. San Jose State

(10-15-2019 12:21 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(10-15-2019 12:02 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  I think with Hawaii you have to factor in geography. It's one thing to go a state or two out of your footprint; it's another thing entirely to jump half an ocean to add a school. But playing within the parameters of the exercise:

BYU is the obvious bell cow though unless the conference is a P5, they're not interested, thanks for playing. Of the MWC schools, San Diego State and Colorado State are the strongest adds, but don't overlook UNLV (big, nationally relevant and growing market that is already an important sports city and is only getting more so with the Raiders inbound). Otherwise, I don't see any of the others generating serious interest from the P5 or even the AAC, outside a football-only membership for Boise State or Air Force.

I know the travel costs and logistics are tough with Hawaii, but they can actually provide real value to a conference, if utilized correctly:

1) the conference can OWN the Week 0 schedule, with nationally-televised games to a college football audience that is starved for games. I'm really surprised that the MWC hasn't jumped on this opportunity more. Arizona at Hawaii was the only MWC game during Week 0 this year. Air Force, Fresno, SDSU, and SJSU each could have moved a game to Week 0. Missed opportunity for nationally-televised games in the limelight.

2) extra inventory because of the 13th game allowance - up to 5 additional annual games of inventory for the conference television contract.

3) easily fill the late-night kickoff time slot for nationally-televised games, but with reasonable local kickoff times. (10pm ET is 5pm Hawaii time).

4) Hawaii has decent recruiting prospects compared to its relatively small size. Usually about 15-20 P5-level players each year.

5) Hawaii brings a decent bowl game to a conference lineup.

I think you're right about all of that, but the conference best suited to take advantage of it is the one that already claims them. The long-shot possibility is the Pac 12 (and short of losing schools I'm struggling to think of the circumstances that would have them offer an invitation), but otherwise the liabilities outstrip the assets for the rest of the P5, and the AAC for that matter.

BYU hands down is the pick of the litter.

Boise St delivers a football brand that people will recognize but they definitely lag in all other categories

San Diego St is perhaps the most well rounded athletic program

AFA is your team that has national appeal, but as much as Boise. They won’t be your star anchor program but they are nice to have around

Colorado St is your best academic pick

Beyond that, there’s no one really worthy of consideration.

Nevada, UNLV, and Wyoming are all in small states and UNLV’s market share is only going to decrease with the NHL and NFL in the market

Utah St is 3rd fiddle in their state and it’s a small one. UNM has historically struggled in football and is also plagued with being a small state school with narrow appeal. You can’t overlook Hawaii’s location and they also suffer from being in a small state.

San Jose St and Fresno St are hamstrung academically by the UC system and both struggle for relevance, particularly San Jose St. If these schools were absorbed into the UC system and were built like UCs they’d be in a completely different tier.

(10-15-2019 12:16 PM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  I think many people who criticize Boise (the city) have never actually been there. It's not NYC or LA. But I don't see why people think Boise is small.....the metro area is like 700,000. And the city proper is bigger than major cities like Birmingham, Alabama.

Birmingham isn't nearly as isolated as Boise. Birmingham is 1 hour to Tuscaloosa or Gadsden, 90 minutes to Montgomery or Huntsville. There's 3.3 million people within 100 miles who can easily travel in after work to attend a weeknight game.

Boise is a great town, but there's only 655,000 people within 100 miles. Within 200 miles, there's 1.1 million people. Within 300 miles (almost too far to come in for a Saturday football game), there's 4.7 million people, and nearly 3/4 of them are in Salt Lake City or Spokane.

For reference, there are 54 million people within 300 miles of Cincinnati.

(10-15-2019 01:56 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-15-2019 12:16 PM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  I think many people who criticize Boise (the city) have never actually been there. It's not NYC or LA. But I don't see why people think Boise is small.....the metro area is like 700,000. And the city proper is bigger than major cities like Birmingham, Alabama.

Birmingham isn't nearly as isolated as Boise. Birmingham is 1 hour to Tuscaloosa or Gadsden, 90 minutes to Montgomery or Huntsville. There's 3.3 million people within 100 miles who can easily travel in after work to attend a weeknight game.

Boise is a great town, but there's only 655,000 people within 100 miles. Within 200 miles, there's 1.1 million people. Within 300 miles (almost too far to come in for a Saturday football game), there's 4.7 million people, and nearly 3/4 of them are in Salt Lake City or Spokane.

For reference, there are 54 million people within 300 miles of Cincinnati.

Very true, but people in the West are willing to drive longer distances (and to be fair, we can usually get to a destination quicker because there is not a lot of towns in between).

And of the 54 million within 300 miles of Cincy, how many care about UC?

Boise has an advantage of being the only game in town.

(10-15-2019 12:16 PM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  I think many people who criticize Boise (the city) have never actually been there. It's not NYC or LA. But I don't see why people think Boise is small.....the metro area is like 700,000. And the city proper is bigger than major cities like Birmingham, Alabama.

I don't have any thoughts about Boise as a city, but 700,000 is a small market. It's the 100th largest TV market. Similar market sizes are South Bend, Indiana; Ft. Smith-Fayetteville, AR; Tri-Cities (Johnson City), TN; Evansville, IN; Ft. Wayne, IN; Augusta, GA. Not exactly burgeoning metropolises for TV purposes, even if some of them might be nice cities (indeed, I live in NW Arkansas and happen to think it's very nice and very underappreciated nationally for quality of life).

(10-15-2019 02:40 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(10-15-2019 12:16 PM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  I think many people who criticize Boise (the city) have never actually been there. It's not NYC or LA. But I don't see why people think Boise is small.....the metro area is like 700,000. And the city proper is bigger than major cities like Birmingham, Alabama.

I don't have any thoughts about Boise as a city, but 700,000 is a small market. It's the 100th largest TV market. Similar market sizes are South Bend, Indiana; Ft. Smith-Fayetteville, AR; Tri-Cities (Johnson City), TN; Evansville, IN; Ft. Wayne, IN; Augusta, GA. Not exactly burgeoning metropolises for TV purposes, even if some of them might be nice cities (indeed, I live in NW Arkansas and happen to think it's very nice and very underappreciated nationally for quality of life).

FWIW they carry that market. That has to be worth something significant.

(10-15-2019 12:02 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  I think with Hawaii you have to factor in geography. It's one thing to go a state or two out of your footprint; it's another thing entirely to jump half an ocean to add a school. But playing within the parameters of the exercise:

BYU is the obvious bell cow though unless the conference is a P5, they're not interested, thanks for playing. Of the MWC schools, San Diego State and Colorado State are the strongest adds, but don't overlook UNLV (big, nationally relevant and growing market that is already an important sports city and is only getting more so with the Raiders inbound). Otherwise, I don't see any of the others generating serious interest from the P5 or even the AAC, outside a football-only membership for Boise State or Air Force.

You obviously never check the standings in MWC sports or you would not have mentioned CSU. They consistently rank near the bottom in football and basketball . If you are trying to strengthen your conference you don’t want them. Actually the only way you can get Schools in this region is to take at least 3.


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(10-15-2019 04:52 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  

(10-15-2019 12:02 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  I think with Hawaii you have to factor in geography. It's one thing to go a state or two out of your footprint; it's another thing entirely to jump half an ocean to add a school. But playing within the parameters of the exercise:

BYU is the obvious bell cow though unless the conference is a P5, they're not interested, thanks for playing. Of the MWC schools, San Diego State and Colorado State are the strongest adds, but don't overlook UNLV (big, nationally relevant and growing market that is already an important sports city and is only getting more so with the Raiders inbound). Otherwise, I don't see any of the others generating serious interest from the P5 or even the AAC, outside a football-only membership for Boise State or Air Force.

You obviously never check the standings in MWC sports or you would not have mentioned CSU. They consistently rank near the bottom in football and basketball . If you are trying to strengthen your conference you don’t want them. Actually the only way you can get Schools in this region is to take at least 3.


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Colorado st doesn’t have baseball either. Most of the MWC schools do except them Wyoming and Utah St. Boise just restarted their baseball.

(10-15-2019 02:04 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(10-15-2019 01:56 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-15-2019 12:16 PM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  I think many people who criticize Boise (the city) have never actually been there. It's not NYC or LA. But I don't see why people think Boise is small.....the metro area is like 700,000. And the city proper is bigger than major cities like Birmingham, Alabama.

Birmingham isn't nearly as isolated as Boise. Birmingham is 1 hour to Tuscaloosa or Gadsden, 90 minutes to Montgomery or Huntsville. There's 3.3 million people within 100 miles who can easily travel in after work to attend a weeknight game.

Boise is a great town, but there's only 655,000 people within 100 miles. Within 200 miles, there's 1.1 million people. Within 300 miles (almost too far to come in for a Saturday football game), there's 4.7 million people, and nearly 3/4 of them are in Salt Lake City or Spokane.

For reference, there are 54 million people within 300 miles of Cincinnati.

Very true, but people in the West are willing to drive longer distances (and to be fair, we can usually get to a destination quicker because there is not a lot of towns in between).

And of the 54 million within 300 miles of Cincy, how many care about UC?

Boise has an advantage of being the only game in town.

I saw a map where 80% of Americans live East of a line Fargo to San Antonio East I believe. With 16 percent living within a hundred miles of the Pacific ocean . Just 4% live in the big area in between . So Maybe BYU then SDSU after that CSU and UNM for a near P5 or P5 conference.

(10-15-2019 05:49 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(10-15-2019 04:52 PM)Jjoey52 Wrote:  

(10-15-2019 12:02 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  I think with Hawaii you have to factor in geography. It's one thing to go a state or two out of your footprint; it's another thing entirely to jump half an ocean to add a school. But playing within the parameters of the exercise:

BYU is the obvious bell cow though unless the conference is a P5, they're not interested, thanks for playing. Of the MWC schools, San Diego State and Colorado State are the strongest adds, but don't overlook UNLV (big, nationally relevant and growing market that is already an important sports city and is only getting more so with the Raiders inbound). Otherwise, I don't see any of the others generating serious interest from the P5 or even the AAC, outside a football-only membership for Boise State or Air Force.

You obviously never check the standings in MWC sports or you would not have mentioned CSU. They consistently rank near the bottom in football and basketball . If you are trying to strengthen your conference you don’t want them. Actually the only way you can get Schools in this region is to take at least 3.


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Colorado st doesn’t have baseball either. Most of the MWC schools do except them Wyoming and Utah St. Boise just restarted their baseball.

Colorado State is in a good market and a good location with good academics. The right coach can change their football and basketball fortunes, but you can't quick fix that other stuff.

My guess is if baseball was a dealbreaker for admission to a better conference, they'd have a program up and running in record time.

1) BYU-All Sports

Small gap

2) Boise -All Sports (Boise basketball is actually pretty solid)

Big gap

3) CSU- All Sports (Would need a new basketball arena to help that program along and fit into the AAC.)
4) Air Force Football only (Makes a lot of sense when partnered with CSU.)
5) SDSU-All Sports (Just to much geography to overcome but has a very well rounded athletic program. Doesn't have a good school to pair with like BYU and Boise...CSU and Air Force.)

Bigger Gap

6) UNLV - If football could ever get on track then could be paired with SDSU.
7) UNM - Arguably the biggest underachiever of them all. Has a tremendous basketball program with top a too 20 home enviroment and arena. Perfect fit Geographical wise to add with CSU/Air Force. Unfortunately their football program is abysmal as is their stadium. If they were willing to build a new stadium a la CSU and raise their athletic funding Over 10 years to the AAC average then they would be a home run.

A bridge to far

8) USU
9)Wyo
10) UNR
11)Fresno
12)Hawaii

(10-15-2019 06:07 PM)CoastalVANDAL Wrote:  

(10-15-2019 02:04 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(10-15-2019 01:56 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-15-2019 12:16 PM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  I think many people who criticize Boise (the city) have never actually been there. It's not NYC or LA. But I don't see why people think Boise is small.....the metro area is like 700,000. And the city proper is bigger than major cities like Birmingham, Alabama.

Birmingham isn't nearly as isolated as Boise. Birmingham is 1 hour to Tuscaloosa or Gadsden, 90 minutes to Montgomery or Huntsville. There's 3.3 million people within 100 miles who can easily travel in after work to attend a weeknight game.

Boise is a great town, but there's only 655,000 people within 100 miles. Within 200 miles, there's 1.1 million people. Within 300 miles (almost too far to come in for a Saturday football game), there's 4.7 million people, and nearly 3/4 of them are in Salt Lake City or Spokane.

For reference, there are 54 million people within 300 miles of Cincinnati.

Very true, but people in the West are willing to drive longer distances (and to be fair, we can usually get to a destination quicker because there is not a lot of towns in between).

And of the 54 million within 300 miles of Cincy, how many care about UC?

Boise has an advantage of being the only game in town.

I saw a map where 80% of Americans live East of a line Fargo to San Antonio East I believe. With 16 percent living within a hundred miles of the Pacific ocean . Just 4% live in the big area in between . So Maybe BYU then SDSU after that CSU and UNM for a near P5 or P5 conference.

If you get CSU you will be closer to FCS. What is the fascination with those losers?


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The schools that would appeal to me the most are as follows:

1. BYU (but only if the school is willing to play games on Sundays if necessary)

2. San Diego State: good all-round sports and academics in a big city

3. Colorado State: growing state could bring some decent media market

4. Boise: primarily for football but an underrated and up-and-coming city

All the others bring various positives and negatives to the table (just like the bottom two-thirds of the American)