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Scheduling Czar
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Scheduling Czar
CTE scares are going to be a non-factor. Think of how most NFL preseason games go. Coaches are going to use this as an opportunity to test guys who are borderline starters and role players. Unless there is a real battle for a starting position a lot of your star players are going to see very limited action in a preseason game against UT Martin.

What the AD is going to see is $$. Season ticket holders are going to have to pay for the per-season game and they are going to be able to make much more money off of a home game against a big time OOC opponent in the regular season than they would if they had to waste one of their 12 games on a tune up. The preseason game, like the spring game, is also going to be a great opportunity for fans who can’t afford regular season tickets a chance to see their team and experience a game day stadium atmosphere.

No one is going to miss spring practices and those 2 sport baseball guys aren’t going to miss their whole summer ball season and frankly it’s doesn’t impact enough players to really matter.

This is going to be great for schools who have lost rivals due to conference realignment and also for conference like the ACC, who can now play 9 conference games and more cross division action and not interfere with the season ends’ instate SEC matchups
09-26-2019 11:57 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 10:04 AM)YNot Wrote:  Aren't we talking about a one-week difference in the schedule?

To be fair it's 15 practices that would be added if you just move spring practice to preseason camp so that puts it more than a week. The NCAA has banned two a days and requires at least one day a week of no practice so that would push it to at a minimum two and a half weeks added to preseason camp. With most schools kicking off preseason camp around Aug 1 that would put it into mid July. For the football/baseball players who were lucky enough to play in the CWS that would give them less than a month in the wooden bat leagues, for others just shy of two months.

Quote:And, wouldn't dual-sport baseball players be more interested in playing, you know, during the actual college baseball season than some summer league that no one even knew existed until your post?

They already play in the spring. Kyle Parker was Clemson's starting QB and best baseball player. He participated in both spring practice and baseball games, sometimes on the same day. Pretty sure the only time he missed a baseball games because of football was one spring practice because the spring game was scheduled on a day baseball was playing at Duke. He played Friday night, came back to Clemson following the game, played in the Orange and White game on Saturday then returned to Durham Saturday night to play baseball on Sunday.
09-26-2019 12:50 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 11:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:  We have scouts at every SEC regular season baseball game. They stand behind home plate with their jugs gun and used to sit in our area with the visiting players parents.

Just from conversations I have had with area scouts I've known for years dating back to when I helped coach HS baseball they put a lot more credence into what they see in the wooden bat leagues than what they see in college. Even after the BBCOR era hitters could hide a lot of holes in their game with the aluminum bats that they can't swinging a bat made of maple, ash, or birch.
09-26-2019 12:59 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-25-2019 09:50 PM)micahandme Wrote:  My counter argument to your "17 teams can buy a G5 foe" argument is this.

In my proposal, the P5 TV deals would go up EVEN HIGHER. You'd be upping the inventory across CFB by about 10%. That 10% is about 5 million dollars per school in the Big Ten and SEC. With that extra 5 million, they can all buy their G5 opponent quite easily.

Since every P5 game is on TV already somewhere, moving to only (or mostly) P5 v P5 games would up the TV inventory exactly 0%. Would they be more valuable? Likely yes, but I'd say only marginally. Is there really more value to a TV contract to have a good P5 playing a P5 bottom-dweller or a mid-level G5? Probably not, and if so than only on the margins. Even with a modest increase in P5 TV money, more school would be forced into paying out more for fewer opportunities to fill their schedules with winnable home games. I'm skeptical that TV contracts would increase 5 million per school, but even if it did, a large chuck of that would turn around and be paid to the G5s for bought home games. The alternative to paying out to the G5s would be signing home and homes instead, negating the TV contract's value all together, since one of those games would fall under the G5's TV deal.

Smarter numbers people than us on a message board have looked into this sort of thing (I assume anyway). If there was any financial benefit to limiting G5 and FCS games, they would have done it already.
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2019 02:51 PM by AppfanInCAAland.)
09-26-2019 02:49 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 12:59 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 11:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:  We have scouts at every SEC regular season baseball game. They stand behind home plate with their jugs gun and used to sit in our area with the visiting players parents.

Just from conversations I have had with area scouts I've known for years dating back to when I helped coach HS baseball they put a lot more credence into what they see in the wooden bat leagues than what they see in college. Even after the BBCOR era hitters could hide a lot of holes in their game with the aluminum bats that they can't swinging a bat made of maple, ash, or birch.

That's true, but it doesn't change those scouting pitchers and infielders. Successful pitchers against the aluminum bat and infielders able to react to balls hit at a slightly higher velocity give them enough to see at these games, outfielders as well.

I'd be much happier to see the NCAA go back to wooden bats. It's better for the game and a bit safer for infielders.
09-26-2019 03:15 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 02:49 PM)AppfanInCAAland Wrote:  Is there really more value to a TV contract to have a good P5 playing a P5 bottom-dweller or a mid-level G5?

Wouldn't happen that way. Let's say that every P5 team plays 11 P5 games. Top teams looking for P5 non-con opponents can't all schedule Kansas. In addition to the fact that every bottom dweller has only 3 or at most 4 non-con games a year that they can schedule, if they have to play P5 non-con games, they're not going to kill themselves by scheduling Alabama, Ohio State, and Oklahoma in the same season. The so-called bottom dwellers would play maybe one game per year like that, and for the others they'd seek out games they have a decent chance of winning. Which means that if you're Alabama, for example, none or one of your P5 non-con games would be a cupcake in any given season, and the other(s) would be teams that are average or better in their P5 league.

So think of replacing Alabama vs. an average G5 team with Alabama vs. a middle of the pack Big Ten team. If you think Alabama vs. Michigan State is only slightly more valuable to TV than Alabama vs. Western Michigan, then we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

(09-26-2019 02:49 PM)AppfanInCAAland Wrote:  Smarter numbers people than us on a message board have looked into this sort of thing (I assume anyway). If there was any financial benefit to limiting G5 and FCS games, they would have done it already.

There is absolutely a TV revenue benefit to it. The biggest reason they don't do it is that they all want better W-L records to keep big donors and other fans, but especially big donors, happy and less likely to demand that the coach or AD be fired.
09-26-2019 03:48 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 09:43 AM)JRsec Wrote:  The Spring Game is a tired meaningless scrimmage and the practice spent prior to the Spring game would be more meaningful tacked on to the time allotted for practice prior to the start of the season.

I think coaches like the Spring scrimmage and the practices that lead to it, as it gives them a chance to get the team together and work out together. In addition to being able to work on some technical things, it helps them maintain contact with the players, check up on them, and build team unity and cohesion in what otherwise would be a good six months of no team activities between January and July.

It also serves the same purpose for football-starved fans. The spring game is a time for football fans to get to see the team in uniform at the stadium in what again is a very long off-season. I think there's more interest among fans in that than in a meaningless FCS pre-season game.

But who knows for sure?
(This post was last modified: 09-26-2019 04:29 PM by quo vadis.)
09-26-2019 04:28 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 03:15 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 12:59 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 11:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:  We have scouts at every SEC regular season baseball game. They stand behind home plate with their jugs gun and used to sit in our area with the visiting players parents.

Just from conversations I have had with area scouts I've known for years dating back to when I helped coach HS baseball they put a lot more credence into what they see in the wooden bat leagues than what they see in college. Even after the BBCOR era hitters could hide a lot of holes in their game with the aluminum bats that they can't swinging a bat made of maple, ash, or birch.

That's true, but it doesn't change those scouting pitchers and infielders. Successful pitchers against the aluminum bat and infielders able to react to balls hit at a slightly higher velocity give them enough to see at these games, outfielders as well.

I'd be much happier to see the NCAA go back to wooden bats. It's better for the game and a bit safer for infielders.

Not totally true. Pitchers, especially those who do not get good coaching as youth players, develop bad habits like failing to develop a fast ball or always pitching away to hitters because of the metal bats. You can bust a hitter inside and they still get a hit off the neck of the bat with a metal bat, they do it with a wooden bat and it splinters in their hands or they hit an easy to field dribbler.

I've long felt that the professional baseball leagues (MLB, MiLB, and the independents) are doing themselves a serious disservice by not subsidizing the wooden bat industry for use at the high school and college level because that's the biggest concern, the cost.
09-26-2019 04:46 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 04:46 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 03:15 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 12:59 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 11:03 AM)JRsec Wrote:  We have scouts at every SEC regular season baseball game. They stand behind home plate with their jugs gun and used to sit in our area with the visiting players parents.

Just from conversations I have had with area scouts I've known for years dating back to when I helped coach HS baseball they put a lot more credence into what they see in the wooden bat leagues than what they see in college. Even after the BBCOR era hitters could hide a lot of holes in their game with the aluminum bats that they can't swinging a bat made of maple, ash, or birch.

That's true, but it doesn't change those scouting pitchers and infielders. Successful pitchers against the aluminum bat and infielders able to react to balls hit at a slightly higher velocity give them enough to see at these games, outfielders as well.

I'd be much happier to see the NCAA go back to wooden bats. It's better for the game and a bit safer for infielders.

Not totally true. Pitchers, especially those who do not get good coaching as youth players, develop bad habits like failing to develop a fast ball or always pitching away to hitters because of the metal bats. You can bust a hitter inside and they still get a hit off the neck of the bat with a metal bat, they do it with a wooden bat and it splinters in their hands or they hit an easy to field dribbler.

I've long felt that the professional baseball leagues (MLB, MiLB, and the independents) are doing themselves a serious disservice by not subsidizing the wooden bat industry for use at the high school and college level because that's the biggest concern, the cost.

I played in the era of wood and coached in the era of aluminum. I don't really believe that aluminum is all that cheaper at the Little League, Pony League or High School level. The aluminum bats get bent and some break at the handle and they are twice as much as the wooden bats wholesale.

As to pitching Auburn's pitchers are pretty well coached, as are most of the schools' pitchers in the SEC. The starters have minimum 3 command pitches and some have 4. Fastball, Slider, Curve and many of the better ones are already mastering the Cutter. What I don't see much anymore is a screwball or a knuckler.
09-26-2019 08:43 PM
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Post: #50
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-26-2019 12:50 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 10:04 AM)YNot Wrote:  Aren't we talking about a one-week difference in the schedule?

To be fair it's 15 practices that would be added if you just move spring practice to preseason camp so that puts it more than a week. The NCAA has banned two a days and requires at least one day a week of no practice so that would push it to at a minimum two and a half weeks added to preseason camp. With most schools kicking off preseason camp around Aug 1 that would put it into mid July. For the football/baseball players who were lucky enough to play in the CWS that would give them less than a month in the wooden bat leagues, for others just shy of two months.

Quote:And, wouldn't dual-sport baseball players be more interested in playing, you know, during the actual college baseball season than some summer league that no one even knew existed until your post?

They already play in the spring. Kyle Parker was Clemson's starting QB and best baseball player. He participated in both spring practice and baseball games, sometimes on the same day. Pretty sure the only time he missed a baseball games because of football was one spring practice because the spring game was scheduled on a day baseball was playing at Duke. He played Friday night, came back to Clemson following the game, played in the Orange and White game on Saturday then returned to Durham Saturday night to play baseball on Sunday.

May be overlooked this, but is the proposal to add the FCS exhibit game in late August and do away with spring football entirely?
09-27-2019 12:54 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-27-2019 12:54 PM)YNot Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 12:50 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(09-26-2019 10:04 AM)YNot Wrote:  Aren't we talking about a one-week difference in the schedule?

To be fair it's 15 practices that would be added if you just move spring practice to preseason camp so that puts it more than a week. The NCAA has banned two a days and requires at least one day a week of no practice so that would push it to at a minimum two and a half weeks added to preseason camp. With most schools kicking off preseason camp around Aug 1 that would put it into mid July. For the football/baseball players who were lucky enough to play in the CWS that would give them less than a month in the wooden bat leagues, for others just shy of two months.

Quote:And, wouldn't dual-sport baseball players be more interested in playing, you know, during the actual college baseball season than some summer league that no one even knew existed until your post?

They already play in the spring. Kyle Parker was Clemson's starting QB and best baseball player. He participated in both spring practice and baseball games, sometimes on the same day. Pretty sure the only time he missed a baseball games because of football was one spring practice because the spring game was scheduled on a day baseball was playing at Duke. He played Friday night, came back to Clemson following the game, played in the Orange and White game on Saturday then returned to Durham Saturday night to play baseball on Sunday.

May be overlooked this, but is the proposal to add the FCS exhibit game in late August and do away with spring football entirely?

Yes.
09-27-2019 01:46 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-24-2019 11:25 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(09-24-2019 10:57 PM)micahandme Wrote:  
(09-23-2019 01:58 PM)JRsec Wrote:  And I must ask, is there really much difference between playing the bottom 4 schools in the PAC, ACC, SEC, and Big 10 and the bottom 2 in the Big 12 than there is in playing an AAC or MWC school? I don't think so, and in many cases the AAC or MWC school may be better.

Probably not the top 2 of the MWC/AAC. Probably very similar.

The Audible podcast (Mandel/Feldman) had very cogent arguments about USF and where they would fit in a P5 conference. Basically, it's the idea that they'd be middle of the pack...

Would they sneak up and bite a top 10-15 team every now and then? Sure.

Would they also lose to another middle of the pack time on occasion? Yup.

Would they themselves get upset by a weak team every blue moon? Maybe.

Throw Minnesota or Maryland in MWC/AAC...and they probably become a 9-3 team. In the Big Ten, they'll be around 6-6. The talent gap is real between the P5 and G5...and when you play a higher talent level week after week, it takes its toll.

The week in and week out grind against heavier lines is something that many of the G5 don't grasp, but the service academies got it right away. It results in injuries and attrition which is why so many P schools in the mid level bowls struggle. They are out of their depth advantage and at that point it is a much more even game. The reason most P5's have a major advantage in wins against the G5 at the start of the season is because they play even for a half and then the depth kicks in. By bowl season that advantage is gone.

Both of you are missing a couple points.

Throw a top AAC/MWC team in the P5 and their recruiting would get much better-- hence they would have better depth to deal with the disadvantages you are speaking of. Throw a Minnesota or Maryland in the AAC their recruiting would get worse, they would not have the talent advantage to finish 9-3 (I am not actually sold they would finish 9-3 as it stands TBH).
09-27-2019 02:11 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-27-2019 02:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Throw a top AAC/MWC team in the P5 and their recruiting would get much better-- hence they would have better depth to deal with the disadvantages you are speaking of.

We have 3 recent examples to check to see if that's true. Compare the last two recruiting classes of Utah, TCU, and Louisville before joining a P5 conference with their recruiting classes of the last two years. What does that data look like?

As I said in another thread, we don't have to just speculate how a top AAC or MWC football team would do in a P5 conference. We have recent data. Their resuits could be somewhere in the range of the last several years of Utah, TCU, and Louisville football, closer to Utah and TCU if they have a stable, excellent coaching staff and a level of donor support that is above average among P5 schools. Closer to Louisville's recent results if they have the donations but not so much the coaching. Likely worse than any of those three if they have neither above-average donations nor excellent coaching.
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2019 02:32 PM by Wedge.)
09-27-2019 02:31 PM
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CliftonAve Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-27-2019 02:31 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(09-27-2019 02:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Throw a top AAC/MWC team in the P5 and their recruiting would get much better-- hence they would have better depth to deal with the disadvantages you are speaking of.

We have 3 recent examples to check to see if that's true. Compare the last two recruiting classes of Utah, TCU, and Louisville before joining a P5 conference with their recruiting classes of the last two years. What does that data look like?

As I said in another thread, we don't have to just speculate how a top AAC or MWC football team would do in a P5 conference. We have recent data. Their resuits could be somewhere in the range of the last several years of Utah, TCU, and Louisville football, closer to Utah and TCU if they have a stable, excellent coaching staff and a level of donor support that is above average among P5 schools. Closer to Louisville's recent results if they have the donations but not so much the coaching. Likely worse than any of those three if they have neither above-average donations nor excellent coaching.


Utah started Pac12 play in 2011.

2009: 46th ranked class (per 247)
2010: 42nd ranked class
2018: 33rd ranked class
2019: 42nd ranked class

TCU started Big 12 play in 2011

2010: #47
2011: #29 (Big Twelve Bounce)
2018: #25
2019: #33

Louisville joined the ACC in 2014.

2012: #45
2013: #36 (keep in mind likely a push due to joining ACC)
2018: #30
2019 #69 (skewed for Petrino firing late in recruiting cycle- in 2017 their class was #34)


Based on these three examples, there is evidence of a slight upgrade in talent based on the recruiting rankings. If you do a deeper dive and go beyond two years before joining their respective conference you'll note an even more improvement.
09-27-2019 03:09 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Scheduling Czar
(09-27-2019 03:09 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-27-2019 02:31 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(09-27-2019 02:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Throw a top AAC/MWC team in the P5 and their recruiting would get much better-- hence they would have better depth to deal with the disadvantages you are speaking of.

We have 3 recent examples to check to see if that's true. Compare the last two recruiting classes of Utah, TCU, and Louisville before joining a P5 conference with their recruiting classes of the last two years. What does that data look like?

As I said in another thread, we don't have to just speculate how a top AAC or MWC football team would do in a P5 conference. We have recent data. Their resuits could be somewhere in the range of the last several years of Utah, TCU, and Louisville football, closer to Utah and TCU if they have a stable, excellent coaching staff and a level of donor support that is above average among P5 schools. Closer to Louisville's recent results if they have the donations but not so much the coaching. Likely worse than any of those three if they have neither above-average donations nor excellent coaching.


Utah started Pac12 play in 2011.

2009: 46th ranked class (per 247)
2010: 42nd ranked class
2018: 33rd ranked class
2019: 42nd ranked class

TCU started Big 12 play in 2011

2010: #47
2011: #29 (Big Twelve Bounce)
2018: #25
2019: #33

Louisville joined the ACC in 2014.

2012: #45
2013: #36 (keep in mind likely a push due to joining ACC)
2018: #30
2019 #69 (skewed for Petrino firing late in recruiting cycle- in 2017 their class was #34)


Based on these three examples, there is evidence of a slight upgrade in talent based on the recruiting rankings. If you do a deeper dive and go beyond two years before joining their respective conference you'll note an even more improvement.

Right, they broke into the bottom 1/2 to 1/3rd of the P5 with the extra income and exposure. That's about it. And it's why I said the bottom 1/3rd of the P5 would be in competition with the top 20 or so G5 schools. That's a far far cry from we're #1.
09-27-2019 03:48 PM
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