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OOC records: MWC vs AAC
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BePcr07 Offline
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Post: #161
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
A little off topic but sticking generally with MWC/AAC, I don't think there's much of a debate to be had on top-down quality between the conferences. You also can't look at a single season as the tell-all of conference quality which seems to be a common comment among posters here and other places. "We had a 10-win season so we must be getting a XII invite."

Excluding the military academies and Wichita St, I'd rank the 21 MWC/AAC brands as follows for power conference expansion candidates:
1. Cincinnati
2. Houston
3. Central Florida
4. Memphis
5. South Florida
6. San Diego St
7. Temple
8. SMU
9. Tulane
10. East Carolina
11. Colorado St
12. Boise St
13. Tulsa
14. New Mexico
15. UNLV
16. Nevada
17. Hawaii
18. Utah St
19. Fresno St
20.Wyoming
21. San Jose St
12-04-2019 12:22 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #162
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
(12-04-2019 12:22 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  A little off topic but sticking generally with MWC/AAC, I don't think there's much of a debate to be had on top-down quality between the conferences. You also can't look at a single season as the tell-all of conference quality which seems to be a common comment among posters here and other places. "We had a 10-win season so we must be getting a XII invite."

Excluding the military academies and Wichita St, I'd rank the 21 MWC/AAC brands as follows for power conference expansion candidates:
1. Cincinnati
2. Houston
3. Central Florida
4. Memphis
5. South Florida
6. San Diego St

It depends on who is expanding. E.g., Cincinnati is more of an expansion target for the B1G than SDSU, SDSU would be more of one for the PAC. And neither hold any interest to the SEC.

In fact, come to think of it, none of the 21 listed hold any interest to any of the P5 conferences. That's just the brutal fact of the matter.
12-04-2019 12:32 PM
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BePcr07 Offline
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Post: #163
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
(12-04-2019 12:32 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 12:22 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  A little off topic but sticking generally with MWC/AAC, I don't think there's much of a debate to be had on top-down quality between the conferences. You also can't look at a single season as the tell-all of conference quality which seems to be a common comment among posters here and other places. "We had a 10-win season so we must be getting a XII invite."

Excluding the military academies and Wichita St, I'd rank the 21 MWC/AAC brands as follows for power conference expansion candidates:
1. Cincinnati
2. Houston
3. Central Florida
4. Memphis
5. South Florida
6. San Diego St

It depends on who is expanding. E.g., Cincinnati is more of an expansion target for the B1G than SDSU, SDSU would be more of one for the PAC. And neither hold any interest to the SEC.

In fact, come to think of it, none of the 21 listed hold any interest to any of the P5 conferences. That's just the brutal fact of the matter.

Hypothetical power conference who doesn’t care about geography but wants to add from either or both conferences. In a vacuum, that is what was intended.
12-04-2019 12:44 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #164
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
(10-16-2019 02:15 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I think it's fair to say that the MW has performed *at least* as well vs the P5 so far as has the AAC, and probably better.

The reason the AAC is so much stronger in the computers is because they have performed far better against other G5 teams, including 3-0 vs the MW.

That is ironic, in that AAC fans are claiming a separation from the G5 and towards the P5, when this separation is in fact based on dominance of the G5, not on having more success vs the P5, which is what association with the P5 should be based on.

Actually---thats patently incorrect. Half (or more) of the P5 regularly have losing records against the rest of the P5. When it comes to "on the field" comparisons the trait the P5 universally shares is having a dominant record against the G5.
(This post was last modified: 12-04-2019 03:25 PM by Attackcoog.)
12-04-2019 12:58 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #165
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
It continues to puzzle me how this debate sometimes gets distorted.

"Power" and "better" is not solely about on-the-field results. It's also (and some would argue exclusively) about resources (fan bases, coaching salaries, athletic department budgets, TV contracts, etc.).

I feel (and I follow two American teams but I have to be fair and honest) that the Mountain West is probably every bit as strong (maybe a slight bit less so) than the American this year. But the American continues to separate itself from the other G5 leagues with its continued accumulation of resources.

So, and for example, let's say one would argue the American has been "better" in football than the Atlantic Coast this season. Joe Schmoe could counter by noting: "It doesn't matter because the Atlantic Coast is more of a power in terms of resources."

Similarly, if Joe Schmoe argues that the Mountain West has been as good or "better" than the American this year while failing to acknowledge that the American is, regardless, "more a power in terms of resources," he has not shown consistency in his argument.

Sometimes we fumble in this respect (I've been guilty of that too).
12-07-2019 08:57 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #166
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
(12-04-2019 12:58 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(10-16-2019 02:15 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I think it's fair to say that the MW has performed *at least* as well vs the P5 so far as has the AAC, and probably better.

The reason the AAC is so much stronger in the computers is because they have performed far better against other G5 teams, including 3-0 vs the MW.

That is ironic, in that AAC fans are claiming a separation from the G5 and towards the P5, when this separation is in fact based on dominance of the G5, not on having more success vs the P5, which is what association with the P5 should be based on.

Actually---thats patently incorrect. Half (or more) of the P5 regularly have losing records against the rest of the P5. When it comes to "on the field" comparisons the trait the P5 universally shares is having a dominant record against the G5.

"Patently"? You have a point but a partial one. Because just mathematically, the sum of all P5 vs P5 OOC games must equal a .500 record, that means that it's impossible for all P5 conferences to have winning records vs other P5 conferences. If the SEC is 3-1 vs the B1G, then the B1G is 1-3 vs the SEC, etc. So there can't be an expectation that to be a P5 conference you have to have a winning record vs other P5. On the other hand, you are right that dominance over G5 is a P5 hallmark. Point taken.

But still, I think it's different for a G5 conference trying to prove it belongs in the "P" range. To me, that conference has to meet a higher standard, it does need to win a substantial number of games vs P5, it can't just do what other P5 do, which is dominate the G5.

E.g., the ACC doesn't need to have a winning record vs other P5 this year to still be a "P" conference, because "P" status is something earned over time, not based on a year's results, and it has done so in the past. But a G5 trying enter the "P" ranks has to establish major success vs existing P5 to build its case.

In essence, i submit that if a particular conference were to develop a legacy of (a) dominating other G5, but (b) also consistently having a bad losing record vs P5, then © it would come to be regarded as a "tweener", not a "P" conference.
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2019 09:29 AM by quo vadis.)
12-07-2019 09:27 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #167
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
From Quo: "In essence, i submit that if a particular conference were to develop a legacy of (a) dominating other G5, but (b) also consistently having a bad losing record vs P5, then it would come to be regarded as a "tweener", not a "P" conference."

I fully agree. Again, it boils down to how we define "power." I want the American to excel (not because I'm a "fan" of the conference, as I am not a true fan of any league), but I don't consider it 1. a power league or 2. showing much potential to ever be a power league.

The AAC's goal is to become a true "tweener" in as many areas of athletics (football, men's and women's hoops, fan bases, TV contracts, etc.) as possible. I already consider it essentially a "power baseball league" but acknowledge that lots of folks don't care much for college baseball.

I don't consider the AAC a "power" men's hoops league but it is very close with what I consider eight (seven once UConn leaves) "high-major/all-time top 100 programs" (UC, UH, UM, Temple, WSU, Tulsa and SMU).

Now I must leave the board and attend my monthly urbanplanet.org meeting to discuss urban placemaking issues.

Carry on, lads.
12-07-2019 10:32 AM
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Post: #168
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
(12-07-2019 08:57 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  It continues to puzzle me how this debate sometimes gets distorted.

"Power" and "better" is not solely about on-the-field results. It's also (and some would argue exclusively) about resources (fan bases, coaching salaries, athletic department budgets, TV contracts, etc.).

I feel (and I follow two American teams but I have to be fair and honest) that the Mountain West is probably every bit as strong (maybe a slight bit less so) than the American this year. But the American continues to separate itself from the other G5 leagues with its continued accumulation of resources.

So, and for example, let's say one would argue the American has been "better" in football than the Atlantic Coast this season. Joe Schmoe could counter by noting: "It doesn't matter because the Atlantic Coast is more of a power in terms of resources."

Similarly, if Joe Schmoe argues that the Mountain West has been as good or "better" than the American this year while failing to acknowledge that the American is, regardless, "more a power in terms of resources," he has not shown consistency in his argument.

Sometimes we fumble in this respect (I've been guilty of that too).

Agreed. Power is about money.
12-07-2019 11:45 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #169
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
(12-07-2019 11:45 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(12-07-2019 08:57 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  It continues to puzzle me how this debate sometimes gets distorted.

"Power" and "better" is not solely about on-the-field results. It's also (and some would argue exclusively) about resources (fan bases, coaching salaries, athletic department budgets, TV contracts, etc.).

I feel (and I follow two American teams but I have to be fair and honest) that the Mountain West is probably every bit as strong (maybe a slight bit less so) than the American this year. But the American continues to separate itself from the other G5 leagues with its continued accumulation of resources.

So, and for example, let's say one would argue the American has been "better" in football than the Atlantic Coast this season. Joe Schmoe could counter by noting: "It doesn't matter because the Atlantic Coast is more of a power in terms of resources."

Similarly, if Joe Schmoe argues that the Mountain West has been as good or "better" than the American this year while failing to acknowledge that the American is, regardless, "more a power in terms of resources," he has not shown consistency in his argument.

Sometimes we fumble in this respect (I've been guilty of that too).

Agreed. Power is about money.

No question, money is the ultimate arbiter of Power. In fact, as Tank has said many times, it is the ability to command access and resources and money Despite having poor results on the field that is truest measure of power. Being powerful means you "get", you get money, you get into an NY6 bowl, etc. even when you don't deserve it in terms of results on the field.

But I was just talking about results on the field, which is fair to do as well as long as you make that clear. Which Dazzle did for me as I didn't, LOL.
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2019 11:59 AM by quo vadis.)
12-07-2019 11:58 AM
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RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
Bump.
12-22-2019 10:29 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #171
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
(12-22-2019 10:29 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Bump.

Um, why?
12-22-2019 11:51 AM
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pablowow Offline
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Post: #172
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
(12-04-2019 12:22 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  A little off topic but sticking generally with MWC/AAC, I don't think there's much of a debate to be had on top-down quality between the conferences. You also can't look at a single season as the tell-all of conference quality which seems to be a common comment among posters here and other places. "We had a 10-win season so we must be getting a XII invite."

Excluding the military academies and Wichita St, I'd rank the 21 MWC/AAC brands as follows for power conference expansion candidates:
1. Cincinnati
2. Houston
3. Central Florida
4. Memphis
5. South Florida
6. San Diego St
7. Temple
8. SMU
9. Tulane
10. East Carolina
11. Colorado St
12. Boise St
13. Tulsa
14. New Mexico
15. UNLV
16. Nevada
17. Hawaii
18. Utah St
19. Fresno St
20.Wyoming
21. San Jose St



List seems right.... I see the big 12 losing 4 teams and reloading with 12 new teams(16 total) to complete the power 5 (all power 5 will have 16 teams and a spot in expanded playoffs) ... (AAC/Big 12/MWC) new name could be the (AAC or Big American)
(This post was last modified: 12-22-2019 04:24 PM by pablowow.)
12-22-2019 04:06 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #173
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
All you have to do is look up the Big XII’s 11 expansion candidate finalists for a more accurate representation. No need to reinvent the wheel, folks.
12-22-2019 05:44 PM
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oliveandblue Offline
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Post: #174
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
(12-22-2019 05:44 PM)esayem Wrote:  All you have to do is look up the Big XII’s 11 expansion candidate finalists for a more accurate representation. No need to reinvent the wheel, folks.

Rice is further up than what most other G5 fans think. They're a middling option right now - and they are schit.

If Tulane gets to 9.5 wins per year, look out... ...but if Rice gets to like 7, then THAT might be even scarier.
12-22-2019 08:56 PM
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colohank Offline
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Post: #175
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
(12-04-2019 12:32 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(12-04-2019 12:22 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  A little off topic but sticking generally with MWC/AAC, I don't think there's much of a debate to be had on top-down quality between the conferences. You also can't look at a single season as the tell-all of conference quality which seems to be a common comment among posters here and other places. "We had a 10-win season so we must be getting a XII invite."

Excluding the military academies and Wichita St, I'd rank the 21 MWC/AAC brands as follows for power conference expansion candidates:
1. Cincinnati
2. Houston
3. Central Florida
4. Memphis
5. South Florida
6. San Diego St

It depends on who is expanding. E.g., Cincinnati is more of an expansion target for the B1G than SDSU, SDSU would be more of one for the PAC. And neither hold any interest to the SEC.

In fact, come to think of it, none of the 21 listed hold any interest to any of the P5 conferences. That's just the brutal fact of the matter.

"Nothing exists but atoms and empty space. Everything else is opinion."

Titus Lucretius Carus, ca. 99-55 BC
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2019 12:00 PM by colohank.)
12-23-2019 11:58 AM
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ColumbusCard Offline
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Post: #176
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
8 of the Big 12's final 12 team expansion list were AAC teams
12-24-2019 08:24 AM
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Foreverandever Online
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Post: #177
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
Bowl season is done. Both conferences go 4-3.

Bowls
AAC
Vs A5: 2-2
Vs G5: 2-1

MWC
VS A5: 1-1
VS G5: 3-2

Overall
AAC
VS A5: 8-15 (.347) Total games 23
VS G5: 19-2 (.904) Total games 21
Vs FBS: 27-17 (.613) Total games 44

MWC
Vs A5: 10-11 (.476) Total games 21
Vs G5: 14-10 (.583) Total games 24
Vs FBS: 24-21 (.533) Total games 45
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2020 01:52 PM by Foreverandever.)
01-06-2020 01:47 PM
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Post: #178
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
(12-22-2019 05:44 PM)esayem Wrote:  All you have to do is look up the Big XII’s 11 expansion candidate finalists for a more accurate representation. No need to reinvent the wheel, folks.

Yep. Fans might put Boise and Memphis high on the list, but they didn't even make it.
01-06-2020 01:58 PM
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Post: #179
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
As the Massey Composite rankings are still pre-bowl, I won't bother doing all 99 ooc games. But here are the AAC/mwc wins over contract-bowl-conference teams, listed by Massey Composite ranking. AAC bolded.

Overall, slight edge to the AAC in the quality of those wins over contract-bowl-conference teams.

@Liberty Bowl Navy 20, Kansas St 17 #28
SMU 41, @TCU 38 #49

@Cheez It Bowl Air Force 31, Washington St 21 #50
Boise State 36, @Florida State 31 #51
@Wyoming 37, Missouri 31 #58
@Birmingham Bowl Cincinnati 38, Boston College 6 #64
@Hawaii 31, Oregon State 28 #65
(OT) Air Force 30, @Colorado 23 #70
@Memphis 15, Ole Miss 10 #73
@Cincinnati 24, UCLA 14 #75

San Diego State 23, @UCLA 14 #75
@Nevada 34, Purdue 31 #82
@UCF 45, Stanford 27 #83
@Hawaii 45, Arizona 38 #91
@Temple 20, Maryland 17 #102
@Temple 24, Georgia Tech 2 #111

UNLV 34, @Vanderbilt 10 #113
San Jose State 31, @Arkansas 24 #114

AAC average: 73.125
mwc average: 76.9
01-06-2020 05:17 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #180
RE: OOC records: MWC vs AAC
(12-24-2019 08:24 AM)ColumbusCard Wrote:  8 of the Big 12's final 12 team expansion list were AAC teams

*11

UConn, Cincinnati, UCF, USF, Tulane, Houston, and SMU

Air Force, Colorado State

BYU

Rice
01-06-2020 06:11 PM
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