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St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #21
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
(09-22-2019 06:16 PM)Bogg Wrote:  
(09-20-2019 05:14 PM)trephin Wrote:  serious question Bogg, what is the attraction of a bridge school? just to fill in the visual on a map? for travel partners? I never understand the concept as it relates to the BE in light of modern transportation etc.

SBU doesn't really bridge midwest/east though.

Geography matters. You want potential new additions to expand the reach of your conference (for recruiting purposes as much as anything) but also be close enough to existing members to get some synergy in terms of rivalries. I think it absolutely helps, say, Xavier that Butler is one state over and a reasonable drive. If you're just haphazardly all over the map you run into some of the problems the AAC's had with geography.

That being said, the Big East can get along just fine with the kind of two-pod system they're currently operating under, where the East Coast and Midwest groups each have enough geographic coherence that it more or less works for everyone. I don't think the Bonnies are the right team to act as a bridge between the two pods (if somehow the Big 12 blows up in a way that WV winds up a football-only in the PAC, then sure, but otherwise an east-west bridge school may not exist at all). Not a big enough following, not enough success to offset it, and not in a great recruiting location.

It's why I'd stick with the two-pod setup and, if you had to add school #12 out of the A10, go with Saint Louis. The arena's already in place, the support in the A10 is such that they should have an acceptable crowd for the Big East, and Saint Louis the city is a good recruiting area. Coupled with the fact that it's reasonably drivable from most of the Midwest schools, and that's probably got to be school number 12, in this scenario.

Agree with this 100 percent.
09-22-2019 07:43 PM
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trephin Offline
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Post: #22
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
thanks for the reply bogg. i agree with your points. i don't think an east-midwest bridge exists. off hand SLU is only about 30-60 mins closer by car to Creighton than DePaul or Marquette as per google maps.
09-22-2019 08:07 PM
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trephin Offline
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Post: #23
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
(09-22-2019 07:42 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I don't understand what there is not to understand in terms of "cultural fit." I fully understand that Duquesne men's basketball is not remotely like the programs in the Big East. But I'm looking at the big picture.

I get the comparison as a similarly sized Catholic school, however the one thing against against Duquesne would be the near decade trend of declining population of Pittsburgh and all that may infer. St Louis and Charlotte have gained in population.
(This post was last modified: 09-22-2019 08:30 PM by trephin.)
09-22-2019 08:30 PM
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VCE Offline
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Post: #24
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
Off of the top of my head, a short list of schools that are far more attractive than St B for various reasons. Location/basketball prowess/fan base/location/academics.

Northeastern
BU
Holy Cross
UMass
URI
Sienna
Fordham
Richmond
VCU
ODU
Davidson
Duquesne
Loyola Chicago
Detroit
Dayton
St Louis
Gonzaga

All of these bring far more to the table. And there’s only one I’d consider
09-22-2019 08:54 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #25
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
(09-22-2019 08:30 PM)trephin Wrote:  
(09-22-2019 07:42 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I don't understand what there is not to understand in terms of "cultural fit." I fully understand that Duquesne men's basketball is not remotely like the programs in the Big East. But I'm looking at the big picture.

I get the comparison as a similarly sized Catholic school, however the one thing against against Duquesne would be the near decade trend of declining population of Pittsburgh and all that may infer. St Louis and Charlotte have gained in population.

There are only five U.S. Census Bureau metropolitan statistical areas with 1 million or more people and that are losing population: those of Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Buffalo, Hartford and Rochester. So your point is very important.

My general thought was, and as a very broad hypothetical, the one school that would perhaps best "geographically bridge" the Big East schools in the Northeast to those in the Midwest and that also offers an academic profile and city-location that is similar to those of the current 10 BE schools is Duquesne. Beyond those factors, there are other schools that would be stronger choices. No doubt.
09-22-2019 11:04 PM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #26
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
In another world where Duquesne had, like, even VCU's recent success they'd be interesting. They've even got an NHL arena a block off of campus, so the small/dated on-campus arena wouldn't be a problem. Just not a strong enough program, though. They've struggled to be even average in the A10, nevermind the Big East.
09-23-2019 08:09 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #27
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
(09-23-2019 08:09 AM)Bogg Wrote:  In another world where Duquesne had, like, even VCU's recent success they'd be interesting. They've even got an NHL arena a block off of campus, so the small/dated on-campus arena wouldn't be a problem. Just not a strong enough program, though. They've struggled to be even average in the A10, nevermind the Big East.


Good point. The PPG Paints Arena is very nice and is positioned very closely to the Duquesne campus.

My brother-in-law is from Erie and his nephew attends the University of Pittsburgh. We kind of root for the Steelers. I'm a big fan of the city. The Oakland area is stellar. The Fred Rogers statue outside Heinz Field ... beautiful. Pittsburgh offers some elements and characteristics similar to those of Milwaukee, Louisville and Cincinnati (three cities I strongly like and admire) and on a much more scenic level. It would be cool, in some respects, if the Big East added Duquesne.

But your point goes to the broader point that the handful of us who post on this board seemingly all agree upon: IF the Big East were to expand (a big if), VCU or Saint Louis would be a better add than Duquesne.
09-23-2019 09:14 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
The long-term wild card now is West Virginia, IMO. They are firmly entrenched within the P5 today and are being paid handsomely for it. However, West Virginia, and others, are simply on Texas/Oklahoma move from being relegated to a non-power conference status (and getting their TV payouts killed over it). While it is likely that West Virginia could re-attach with Cincinnati and USF (along with Big 12 leftovers), along with UCF, Memphis, et al, is is also possible West Virginia (in such a hypothetical moment) could move move forward as an Independent, while moving Olympics to the Big East. The same such scenario could be in-play for a Kansas as well (or an Iowa State).

Give the current 20-game round-robin a few seasons to accumulate data and re-assess the landscape. I believe our TV contract will be extended/increased next Summer when UConn joins, and that provides time to see what realignment shakes loose. A "fall-back" with the likes of VCU, Dayton and/or SLU is not bad at all IMO.
09-23-2019 10:13 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #29
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
(09-23-2019 10:13 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The long-term wild card now is West Virginia, IMO. They are firmly entrenched within the P5 today and are being paid handsomely for it. However, West Virginia, and others, are simply on Texas/Oklahoma move from being relegated to a non-power conference status (and getting their TV payouts killed over it). While it is likely that West Virginia could re-attach with Cincinnati and USF (along with Big 12 leftovers), along with UCF, Memphis, et al, is is also possible West Virginia (in such a hypothetical moment) could move move forward as an Independent, while moving Olympics to the Big East. The same such scenario could be in-play for a Kansas as well (or an Iowa State).

Give the current 20-game round-robin a few seasons to accumulate data and re-assess the landscape. I believe our TV contract will be extended/increased next Summer when UConn joins, and that provides time to see what realignment shakes loose. A "fall-back" with the likes of VCU, Dayton and/or SLU is not bad at all IMO.


Hypothetically, a WVa add would be strong in many respects. But it simply doesn't "feel as right" as UConn (which makes full sense). WVa places huge emphasis on football, moderate emphasis on academics (compared to most other state universities) and is located in a remote town in a state with a declining population. The Mountaineer hoops are more than prestigious enough for the Big East or any other league (a VERY good basketball program) and there is some strong WVU history with some other BE universities. But overall, ... kind of an odd fit with the New Big East.

But in the wildcard scenario that the Big 12 implodes (lets say losing OU, OSU, UT and TexTech) and six Big 12 schools are "left hanging" ... as you note, those six might each go the route of independence in football and create a new league that is all-sports but football.

In this scenario, if the Big East landed, say, West Virginia, Kansas and Saint Louis to then have 14 programs ... it might rank as the nation's No. 2 league (behind the Atlantic Coast) year in and year out (and No. 1 some years).

But I feel the more realistic scenario is (in this crazy hypothetical) this:

Remaining Big 12 six

Baylor
Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State
TCU
West Virginia

add eight (from the following 12) ...

Air Force
Boise
BYU
Cincy
Colorado State
Houston
Memphis
SMU
Temple
Tulane
UCF
USF

That is a 14-team all-sports conference that could work fairly well geographically. No hybrid. Very solid academics overall. A "semi-power conference" in football and almost certainly a power hoops league.

The next few years will prove interesting. As I've noted in previous posts, I am a fan/follower of teams in seven Division I-A leagues, so this stuff fascinates me. I could see all seven adding and/or losing programs in the near future. I do not expect the Big East to lose UConn to the ACC (but that could, in theory, happen).
09-23-2019 11:40 AM
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Bogg Offline
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Post: #30
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
To be clear, WV or anyone in the Big 12 would be the most extreme of longshots that would require a dozen goofy things to break right. It'd just be a theoretical addition you couldn't turn down if you had the chance.
09-23-2019 11:53 AM
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HuskyU Offline
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Post: #31
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
(09-23-2019 11:40 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(09-23-2019 10:13 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The long-term wild card now is West Virginia, IMO. They are firmly entrenched within the P5 today and are being paid handsomely for it. However, West Virginia, and others, are simply on Texas/Oklahoma move from being relegated to a non-power conference status (and getting their TV payouts killed over it). While it is likely that West Virginia could re-attach with Cincinnati and USF (along with Big 12 leftovers), along with UCF, Memphis, et al, is is also possible West Virginia (in such a hypothetical moment) could move move forward as an Independent, while moving Olympics to the Big East. The same such scenario could be in-play for a Kansas as well (or an Iowa State).

Give the current 20-game round-robin a few seasons to accumulate data and re-assess the landscape. I believe our TV contract will be extended/increased next Summer when UConn joins, and that provides time to see what realignment shakes loose. A "fall-back" with the likes of VCU, Dayton and/or SLU is not bad at all IMO.


Hypothetically, a WVa add would be strong in many respects. But it simply doesn't "feel as right" as UConn (which makes full sense). WVa places huge emphasis on football, moderate emphasis on academics (compared to most other state universities) and is located in a remote town in a state with a declining population. The Mountaineer hoops are more than prestigious enough for the Big East or any other league (a VERY good basketball program) and there is some strong WVU history with some other BE universities. But overall, ... kind of an odd fit with the New Big East.

But in the wildcard scenario that the Big 12 implodes (lets say losing OU, OSU, UT and TexTech) and six Big 12 schools are "left hanging" ... as you note, those six might each go the route of independence in football and create a new league that is all-sports but football.

In this scenario, if the Big East landed, say, West Virginia, Kansas and Saint Louis to then have 14 programs ... it might rank as the nation's No. 2 league (behind the Atlantic Coast) year in and year out (and No. 1 some years).

But I feel the more realistic scenario is (in this crazy hypothetical) this:

Remaining Big 12 six

Baylor
Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State
TCU
West Virginia

add eight (from the following 12) ...

Air Force
Boise
BYU
Cincy
Colorado State
Houston
Memphis
SMU
Temple
Tulane
UCF
USF

That is a 14-team all-sports conference that could work fairly well geographically. No hybrid. Very solid academics overall. A "semi-power conference" in football and almost certainly a power hoops league.

The next few years will prove interesting. As I've noted in previous posts, I am a fan/follower of teams in seven Division I-A leagues, so this stuff fascinates me. I could see all seven adding and/or losing programs in the near future. I do not expect the Big East to lose UConn to the ACC (but that could, in theory, happen).

If Kansas is left behind, I could see them preferring the Big East to that new G6 league.
09-23-2019 12:54 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #32
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
(09-23-2019 11:53 AM)Bogg Wrote:  To be clear, WV or anyone in the Big 12 would be the most extreme of longshots that would require a dozen goofy things to break right. It'd just be a theoretical addition you couldn't turn down if you had the chance.

Agree. Similarly, there are athletic programs in the Big 12 that would make minimal (if any) sense for a Big East all-sports-but-football invite (TCU and Baylor, in particular). The two that would be the most attractive are WVa (history with BE teams and good "geographic bridge" despite remote locale) and Kansas (elite hoops).
09-23-2019 03:43 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #33
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
(09-23-2019 12:54 PM)HuskyU Wrote:  
(09-23-2019 11:40 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(09-23-2019 10:13 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The long-term wild card now is West Virginia, IMO. They are firmly entrenched within the P5 today and are being paid handsomely for it. However, West Virginia, and others, are simply on Texas/Oklahoma move from being relegated to a non-power conference status (and getting their TV payouts killed over it). While it is likely that West Virginia could re-attach with Cincinnati and USF (along with Big 12 leftovers), along with UCF, Memphis, et al, is is also possible West Virginia (in such a hypothetical moment) could move move forward as an Independent, while moving Olympics to the Big East. The same such scenario could be in-play for a Kansas as well (or an Iowa State).

Give the current 20-game round-robin a few seasons to accumulate data and re-assess the landscape. I believe our TV contract will be extended/increased next Summer when UConn joins, and that provides time to see what realignment shakes loose. A "fall-back" with the likes of VCU, Dayton and/or SLU is not bad at all IMO.


Hypothetically, a WVa add would be strong in many respects. But it simply doesn't "feel as right" as UConn (which makes full sense). WVa places huge emphasis on football, moderate emphasis on academics (compared to most other state universities) and is located in a remote town in a state with a declining population. The Mountaineer hoops are more than prestigious enough for the Big East or any other league (a VERY good basketball program) and there is some strong WVU history with some other BE universities. But overall, ... kind of an odd fit with the New Big East.

But in the wildcard scenario that the Big 12 implodes (lets say losing OU, OSU, UT and TexTech) and six Big 12 schools are "left hanging" ... as you note, those six might each go the route of independence in football and create a new league that is all-sports but football.

In this scenario, if the Big East landed, say, West Virginia, Kansas and Saint Louis to then have 14 programs ... it might rank as the nation's No. 2 league (behind the Atlantic Coast) year in and year out (and No. 1 some years).

But I feel the more realistic scenario is (in this crazy hypothetical) this:

Remaining Big 12 six

Baylor
Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State
TCU
West Virginia

add eight (from the following 12) ...

Air Force
Boise
BYU
Cincy
Colorado State
Houston
Memphis
SMU
Temple
Tulane
UCF
USF

That is a 14-team all-sports conference that could work fairly well geographically. No hybrid. Very solid academics overall. A "semi-power conference" in football and almost certainly a power hoops league.

The next few years will prove interesting. As I've noted in previous posts, I am a fan/follower of teams in seven Division I-A leagues, so this stuff fascinates me. I could see all seven adding and/or losing programs in the near future. I do not expect the Big East to lose UConn to the ACC (but that could, in theory, happen).

If Kansas is left behind, I could see them preferring the Big East to that new G6 league.

I think KU would prefer the Big East basketball to that new league's hoops, no doubt. However, there would have to be a sufficient number of indy football programs (for ease of football scheduling) to make joining the BE work.

It's likely all a moot point because I'm not so sure the Big 12 is going to implode anyway or that, if it did, the Big East would want big public state universities located in far-flung rural areas in heartland states. UConn, which makes sense on so many levels, is a "big public school not locted in a large city" exception. And perhaps WVa, for the reasons some of us have noted, would be, too. Iowa State? Kansas State? Texas Tech? Just seems too far-fetched.
09-23-2019 03:54 PM
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trephin Offline
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Post: #34
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
In this hypothetical where the BE isn't losing members and is not being forced to add schools, I think the BE would have to be overwhelmed to add a 12th and more so a public school. I don't recall WVU's athletic dept performance in the BE, my impression is that it's very different than UConn in athletic dept performance and academics (and therefore not overwhelmingly must add). I think in any scenario where the B12 collapses, a P4 conference would make room for KU.
09-23-2019 08:47 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #35
RE: St. Bonaventure to the Big East?
(09-23-2019 08:47 PM)trephin Wrote:  In this hypothetical where the BE isn't losing members and is not being forced to add schools, I think the BE would have to be overwhelmed to add a 12th and more so a public school. I don't recall WVU's athletic dept performance in the BE, my impression is that it's very different than UConn in athletic dept performance and academics (and therefore not overwhelmingly must add). I think in any scenario where the B12 collapses, a P4 conference would make room for KU.

Very good points, trephin.

The Big East with UConn will be in an outstanding position of influence come the next shake-up. It will not "need" to take a 12th program. In our hypothetical (a bit crazy, indeed), the only school that could be available and that the BE would almost have to take (for various reasons) would be Kansas. That is a basketball brand (notwithstanding its current problems) that any league would want.

I'm on record as supporting the BE having at least 12 programs, and preferably 14. There is strength in numbers. But one more (or three more) need to make sense.
09-25-2019 08:59 AM
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