(09-19-2019 08:27 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(09-18-2019 10:31 PM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  

(09-18-2019 10:14 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Carolina's cheating applies to athletes, not normal students. That might sound like a difference without a distinction, but it's not. Admissions are a big issue for UVa, Duke, GT, and WF, and was an issue for MD.

you actually have this backwards

the "official findings" were that the cheating at UNC involved more than just athletes and was open to all of the student body

that is why the NCAA stated they would take no actions and why the accreditation board took the weak action of giving them double secret probation

of course most involved were athletes, but UNC conveniently let some regular students in on the cheating as well most likely because they knew that would stop down the NCAA and because they know that accreditation boards never do anything of consequence

which really makes their cheating that much worse in reality because it was clearly planned out to get away with even if caught 100% red handed (as they did get away with it)

This isn't exactly correct, what had happened was that athletes were systematically given grades higher than were warranted on a subjectively graded item (basically, a term paper) to keep them eligible in what was otherwise a real course for non-athletes. Joe UNCstudent was writing a comprehensive academic paper to earn their grade while linebackers and point guards were handing in a page and a half double spaced with inflated margins and getting A's for the semester. Because the class was open to the whole student body it was judged by the NCAA to not be a special benefit, while UNC successfully argued that the de facto two-tiered grading system was a question of academic rigor that the NCAA didn't have oversight on. Regular students weren't let in on the actual grade inflation.

What was (highly likely) left unsaid was that if UNC got any meaningful punishment then they would have sued to force the NCAA to approve and enforce the syllabus and grading criteria of every athletes' course load annually across all member schools, and the NCAA blinked. It was absolutely academic fraud, but it was structured in a way the NCAA didn't want to touch.

UNC offered to make it up to all the students. It was academic fraud for everyone enrolled in the class.

(09-20-2019 04:04 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(09-20-2019 02:46 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 05:25 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  What's left are Arizona State, Florida State, Texas Tech, Georgia Tech (AAU) and Louisville.

Georgia Tech is so specialized you can almost throw it in with the blue blood privates. Purdue is a Land Grant otherwise they would pretty much fit the same category. Arizona State and Florida State developed into the large institutions they are after Land Grant designation was given to their State flagships, Arizona and Florida, but they resemble the other land grants schools (Clemson, Auburn, Washington State, Oregon State, Virginia Tech). You could arguably throw Texas Tech in with the likes of Virginia Tech and Clemson, although their AI is closer to "open access" than that.

Arizona and Florida (in this case Arizona State and Florida State) are the poster child of "special case".

1950 there were less than three quarters of a million people in Arizona. By the time the Pac-12 called it was over 2 million and currently at just over 6 million.

In 1950 Florida had around 2.7 million people by the time the SEC and ACC called the Seminoles the state was pushing 13 million and is estimated over 21 million now.

Right. Population growth is the key in both states.

Phoenix is the third-largest media market in the Pac-12 today, 12th largest in the USA.

You could also add that ASU, FSU, GT and UL are the 2nd most prominent or popular schools in their respective states. While Texas Tech is #3, they are hundreds of miles from UT and A&M and are almost a "flagship" of west Texas.

(09-20-2019 04:04 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(09-20-2019 02:46 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(09-19-2019 05:25 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  What's left are Arizona State, Florida State, Texas Tech, Georgia Tech (AAU) and Louisville.

Georgia Tech is so specialized you can almost throw it in with the blue blood privates. Purdue is a Land Grant otherwise they would pretty much fit the same category. Arizona State and Florida State developed into the large institutions they are after Land Grant designation was given to their State flagships, Arizona and Florida, but they resemble the other land grants schools (Clemson, Auburn, Washington State, Oregon State, Virginia Tech). You could arguably throw Texas Tech in with the likes of Virginia Tech and Clemson, although their AI is closer to "open access" than that.

Arizona and Florida (in this case Arizona State and Florida State) are the poster child of "special case".

1950 there were less than three quarters of a million people in Arizona. By the time the Pac-12 called it was over 2 million and currently at just over 6 million.

In 1950 Florida had around 2.7 million people by the time the SEC and ACC called the Seminoles the state was pushing 13 million and is estimated over 21 million now.

Right. Population growth is the key in both states.

Phoenix is the third-largest media market in the Pac-12 today, 12th largest in the USA.

It'll be interesting to see what happens to Phoenix and its remarkable growth when the city runs out of water. I live in the desert Southwest. There isn't enough water to meet needs and treaty obligations now, and it ain't getting better. The Colorado River is already heavily over-subscribed, aquifers are being depleted, and snow-melt timing is out of whack. It'll also be interesting to see what happens when low-lying coastal areas are increasingly impacted by saltwater encroachment. All of a sudden, those rosy, cheery, chamber-of-commerce "ya'll come" mantras will have a hollow ring to them.

Sadly, our fearless and mindless leaders in Washington think no further ahead than the two-year election cycle. In fact, chances are they're on the phones right now begging for campaign contributions instead of addressing the nation's mounting problems.

(09-24-2019 07:57 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(09-21-2019 04:13 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(09-20-2019 07:29 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Cincinnati definitely deserves better than it has gotten so far.

I don't know. At least Cincy ran with BE when it had a spot at the majors table. Memphis basketball and ECU football never got to. But, yeah, given what Cincy put into their football from the 90's onward, especially once in the Big East, they proved they could hang in the big time. Dare I say, probably should have Louisville's spot in the ACC...?

Louisville got started earlier. Thanks to Bill Olsen we were ahead. Howard took over a program in critical condition in ‘84. We played in a baseball stadium averaging 10K - 12K fans a game. You could get two free tickets with a fill up at the gas station.

Howard did everything to build the program. By 1988 the wins started...

We beat UNC, Virginia and Virginia Tech in 1988, Boston College, Kansas in 1989, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Kansas, Boston College and Alabama in 1990, Arizona State, Texas, Pittsburgh and Michigan State in 1993....it took off from there.

The fans contributed money ($135 million) to build the stadium that opened in 1998 with seating of 42K. It was expanded to 55K in 2008 and expanded again to 61K last year.

By the time The ACC needed a program, Louisville was ready. Not sure what Cincinnati’s time line looks like, maybe a UC fan can post one, but I do know what we have in Louisville didn’t happen overnight.

UC has been using pretty much the same map Louisville did, just about 10 years later. That, along with our president being an absolute clown during the realignment period by putting all the eggs in the BE basket, is why we are where we are.

UC's best shot to have gotten into a current P5 spot was selling the Big 12 on a UC/UofL package to get back to 12. The Big 12 decided they'd wait and see how things went with 10 because they thought both would be available any time. Then, the Maryland ACC thing happened, and UofL was gone. UC was left holding the bag.

I believe that had Louisville still been in the AAC during the Big 12 champ game/playoff crisis, that UC & UofL would have been added.

New Mexico State. They are orphaned with seemingly no possible solution that will allow them to get into an all sports FBS league.

Or, since no one said it had to be a school, the poster known as NoDak

(09-24-2019 04:33 AM)ArQ Wrote:  Music chair has stopped. There is only one last seat to P5 to pair with Notre Dame. It is not UCF. It is either Cincinnati or UConn. Most likely Cincinnati. Many AAC fans hope that B1G raid ACC so ACC has to reload with more AAC schools will be disappointed.

I don't think that last seat in the ACC will ever get filled. That would require Notre Dame to give up football independence, and Notre Dame is never doing that as long as they are making mad bank in their current setup.

If that 16th spot were to become available, though, I agree that it goes to UConn or Cincinnati. It won't matter that Cincinnati football is better than UConn now. What will matter is how football (and to a lesser extent basketball) are both performing at each school at the time that the opening becomes available. People have short memories on who was good (or bad) when.

Timing is everything. UConn picked a bad time to be bad at football when they were outmaneuvered by a rapidly improving Louisville team that were themselves pretty bad just a few years earlier (and UConn has obviously never recovered since being left out of the P5 club). In a place like New England with no pool of quality high school football talent, you can lure it to your school from out of state and be pretty good if you are part of the P5 club (as UConn was in the Big East). However, recruiting in New England as a G5 is pretty rough going.

Basketball talent? Different ball game. We have a lot of that up in these parts, which is why we had to re-hitch our wagon to the Big East to do what we do best. If an ACC slot ever opens, being great again in basketball with a decent football team gives us a shot. Being middling in basketball in the AAC and absolutely terrible in football wasn't getting us anywhere. It is tough to recruit NYC kids in basketball as a geographical outlier in a southern conference like the AAC. It is near impossible to recruit kids in football as a G5 against southern conference mates like UCF, Houston, etc. with their local talent - those kids aren't coming up north to freeze unless it is for a P5 opportunity).

(09-24-2019 02:01 PM)stxrunner Wrote:  

(09-24-2019 07:57 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(09-21-2019 04:13 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(09-20-2019 07:29 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Cincinnati definitely deserves better than it has gotten so far.

I don't know. At least Cincy ran with BE when it had a spot at the majors table. Memphis basketball and ECU football never got to. But, yeah, given what Cincy put into their football from the 90's onward, especially once in the Big East, they proved they could hang in the big time. Dare I say, probably should have Louisville's spot in the ACC...?

Louisville got started earlier. Thanks to Bill Olsen we were ahead. Howard took over a program in critical condition in ‘84. We played in a baseball stadium averaging 10K - 12K fans a game. You could get two free tickets with a fill up at the gas station.

Howard did everything to build the program. By 1988 the wins started...

We beat UNC, Virginia and Virginia Tech in 1988, Boston College, Kansas in 1989, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Kansas, Boston College and Alabama in 1990, Arizona State, Texas, Pittsburgh and Michigan State in 1993....it took off from there.

The fans contributed money ($135 million) to build the stadium that opened in 1998 with seating of 42K. It was expanded to 55K in 2008 and expanded again to 61K last year.

By the time The ACC needed a program, Louisville was ready. Not sure what Cincinnati’s time line looks like, maybe a UC fan can post one, but I do know what we have in Louisville didn’t happen overnight.

UC has been using pretty much the same map Louisville did, just about 10 years later. That, along with our president being an absolute clown during the realignment period by putting all the eggs in the BE basket, is why we are where we are.

UC's best shot to have gotten into a current P5 spot was selling the Big 12 on a UC/UofL package to get back to 12. The Big 12 decided they'd wait and see how things went with 10 because they thought both would be available any time. Then, the Maryland ACC thing happened, and UofL was gone. UC was left holding the bag.

I believe that had Louisville still been in the AAC during the Big 12 champ game/playoff crisis, that UC & UofL would have been added.

I can remember you guys complaining about your president, even I remember her name: Nancy Zimpfer. That woman was a piece of work. I thought for sure she was trying to shutdown your athletic department at UC.

I agree that if Maryland had known how to manage their money both our universities would be in The Big 12. Either that or we would be in the American getting our butts kicked by you guys, Memphis and UCF.

A lot of Louisville fans hold out hope that in time you guys will find your way into The ACC.

Lamar is one of the biggest losers. They were visited by WAC officials at the same time as the other Texas schools for FBS inclusion. WAC today could have Lamar, New Mexico State and Idaho. They could try and build an FBS conference that way.

(09-24-2019 08:22 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(09-21-2019 04:13 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(09-20-2019 07:29 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Cincinnati definitely deserves better than it has gotten so far.

I don't know. At least Cincy ran with BE when it had a spot at the majors table. Memphis basketball and ECU football never got to. But, yeah, given what Cincy put into their football from the 90's onward, especially once in the Big East, they proved they could hang in the big time. Dare I say, probably should have Louisville's spot in the ACC...?

At the time that Louisville was invited to the ACC, it was mostly viewed as a home run.
Nobody questioned it at the time, except WV fans. The only other criticism that came upon the ACC was the ACC was being hypocrites because they ignored academics to invite UL. But no one was saying UL took Cincy's spot. I have seen this a few times now after all the troubles that have taken place at Louisville. But in a few years it will be seen as a home run once again. Nothing against Cincy but I like having Louisville in the ACC, and I think the ACC made the right choice.

We know UL spends like a major. For me, I just don’t understand how an acquisition that was supposed to cover football went to the program that took a very long time to hit its stride compared to UC, who pretty much co-owned that conference with WV.

Don’t get me wrong. I think overall, either were fine. But I don’t think people paid attention to what was going on with the actual football played on the field between the two. Then again, maybe the ACC could come clean and say it was really about basketball and not football with the move.

I just believe, and always have, that one was as good as the other.

(09-24-2019 05:18 PM)UConnHusky Wrote:  

(09-24-2019 04:33 AM)ArQ Wrote:  Music chair has stopped. There is only one last seat to P5 to pair with Notre Dame. It is not UCF. It is either Cincinnati or UConn. Most likely Cincinnati. Many AAC fans hope that B1G raid ACC so ACC has to reload with more AAC schools will be disappointed.

I don't think that last seat in the ACC will ever get filled. That would require Notre Dame to give up football independence, and Notre Dame is never doing that as long as they are making mad bank in their current setup.

If that 16th spot were to become available, though, I agree that it goes to UConn or Cincinnati. It won't matter that Cincinnati football is better than UConn now. What will matter is how football (and to a lesser extent basketball) are both performing at each school at the time that the opening becomes available. People have short memories on who was good (or bad) when.

Timing is everything. UConn picked a bad time to be bad at football when they were outmaneuvered by a rapidly improving Louisville team that were themselves pretty bad just a few years earlier (and UConn has obviously never recovered since being left out of the P5 club). In a place like New England with no pool of quality high school football talent, you can lure it to your school from out of state and be pretty good if you are part of the P5 club (as UConn was in the Big East). However, recruiting in New England as a G5 is pretty rough going.

Basketball talent? Different ball game. We have a lot of that up in these parts, which is why we had to re-hitch our wagon to the Big East to do what we do best. If an ACC slot ever opens, being great again in basketball with a decent football team gives us a shot. Being middling in basketball in the AAC and absolutely terrible in football wasn't getting us anywhere. It is tough to recruit NYC kids in basketball as a geographical outlier in a southern conference like the AAC. It is near impossible to recruit kids in football as a G5 against southern conference mates like UCF, Houston, etc. with their local talent - those kids aren't coming up north to freeze unless it is for a P5 opportunity).

I agree - I don't #16 gets filled in the foreseeable future. However, if it were ever to be filled, it would either be A) Notre Dame or B) a team that would help convince/push Notre Dame to consider joining fully in football. IMO, I don't Cincinnati or UConn do anything to help convince Notre Dame to do that however. In addition, the Southern Football programs (Clemson, Florida State, Miami, Georgia Tech) and Tobacco Road (UNC, Duke, NC State and Wake Forest) would likely not want to further push the footprint further North (and with an average to sub-par football addition).

In that regard, I could only see a program like Texas satisfying each of the ACC's inner grouping's personal requirements for a 16th member, which would bring a brand new market, an elite academic institution and a strong overall athletics program (not to mention huge football program).

Now, I don't think Texas is itching to join the ACC, but I don't think there are any available members for the ACC to reach for a 16th member.