(08-18-2019 01:24 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 09:05 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-17-2019 07:41 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(08-17-2019 06:42 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-17-2019 06:39 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Wonder what it would look like if the top 12 in FCS in attendance if they were in FBS?

The HBCUs from the SWAC and MEAC are often disparaged at the FCS level, but they dominate FCS attendance.

2018 FCS attendance by conference:

1. SWAC .......................................... 15,240
2. Missouri Valley Football ................... 9,864
3. MEAC ........................................... 9,815
4. Big Sky ......................................... 9,600
5. Colonial ........................................ 9,283
6. Southern ...................................... 7,611
7. Ohio Valley ................................... 7,507
8. Southland ..................................... 7,161
9. Ivy ............................................... 7,108
10. Patriot ......................................... 4,212
11. Big South ..................................... 3,614
12. Pioneer ........................................ 2,684
13. Northeast ..................................... 2,343

That's the only thing they dominate.

Well, it's also easily the most important thing, much more than say winning FCS playoff games.

LOL no. Having a competitive product other than the bands (which draws a good portion of the attendance) is the goal.

LOL no. Attendance means fan support and contributions to school spirit and unity. At the FCS level that's the only thing that matters. Winning meaningless FCS playoff games while drawing 5,000 people is a ridiculous situation.

Way better to draw 14,000 and go 6-6 than go deep in the FCS playoffs while drawing flies.

(08-18-2019 04:14 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 01:24 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 09:05 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-17-2019 07:41 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(08-17-2019 06:42 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  The HBCUs from the SWAC and MEAC are often disparaged at the FCS level, but they dominate FCS attendance.

2018 FCS attendance by conference:

1. SWAC .......................................... 15,240
2. Missouri Valley Football ................... 9,864
3. MEAC ........................................... 9,815
4. Big Sky ......................................... 9,600
5. Colonial ........................................ 9,283
6. Southern ...................................... 7,611
7. Ohio Valley ................................... 7,507
8. Southland ..................................... 7,161
9. Ivy ............................................... 7,108
10. Patriot ......................................... 4,212
11. Big South ..................................... 3,614
12. Pioneer ........................................ 2,684
13. Northeast ..................................... 2,343

That's the only thing they dominate.

Well, it's also easily the most important thing, much more than say winning FCS playoff games.

LOL no. Having a competitive product other than the bands (which draws a good portion of the attendance) is the goal.

LOL no. Attendance means fan support and contributions to school spirit and unity. At the FCS level that's the only thing that matters. Winning meaningless FCS playoff games while drawing 5,000 people is a ridiculous situation.

Way better to draw 14,000 and go 6-6 than go deep in the FCS playoffs while drawing flies.

You are watching the wrong FCS playoff games then... NDSU packs their dome... sells out every game, and had $5.7M in tickets sales, and $6.7M in contributions, for $12.4M in fan support, which rivals the best in the G5.

Not all FCS teams are created equal...

The going to FBS seems to work with schools gaining more fans. UTSA was below 10,000 while being in the Southland. While joining FBS? They went to almost 30,000 fans and they get P5 schools to visit. Tennessee State would be a good candidate to join FBS. Who would say no going to Nashville playing in the home stadium of the Titans? They used to be an independent in 1A now FBS.

Florida A&M, North Carolina A&T and Jackson State have large stadiums themselves who could host a bowl game. Tennessee State right there with them.

(08-18-2019 11:31 AM)Bogg Wrote:  You know, if they could figure out the funding aspect of things (and yes, that's the big part) this is probably doable. They should be able to settle into long-term scheduling agreements with Liberty, NMSU, UConn, and UMass, and that coupled with two FCS games and two buy games is 2/3s of your annual schedule off the bat. Army has the same later-season scheduling concerns the rest of the independents do and North Carolina is good military recruiting ground, so I imagine they'd cycle in and out of the schedule as well. You may only really be looking for three or four home and homes at a time.

Wish people would stop assuming we should schedule people because they have a need. We have 11 games scheduled for 2022 with an opening for 1 fcs game. Presumably we'd shuffle one of the early games for a home game and some how fit UConn in. Perhaps trade Tulane to UConn and play @UConn on 11/19 and have a fcs home opener would work. But there is NO ROOM for anyone else. We are not going to do serious committing long term beyond 2024, in case the deck chairs start to rearrange. We are making improvements to our stadium, adding an IPF and have a new coaching staff. We'll fall a bit but currently our 2020 recruiting class is rated #76 while UConn is #149. (The have to be closer by the time all letters are signed, but things are look up in the future for UMass.)

2022 schedule:
09/03 - at Tulane
09/10 - at Toledo
09/17 - at Boston College
09/22 - at Temple
10/01 - at Eastern Michigan
10/08 - New Mexico State
10/15 - Buffalo
10/22 - at USF
10/29 - Liberty
11/12 - at Arkansas State
11/26 - Army

(08-18-2019 05:09 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 11:31 AM)Bogg Wrote:  You know, if they could figure out the funding aspect of things (and yes, that's the big part) this is probably doable. They should be able to settle into long-term scheduling agreements with Liberty, NMSU, UConn, and UMass, and that coupled with two FCS games and two buy games is 2/3s of your annual schedule off the bat. Army has the same later-season scheduling concerns the rest of the independents do and North Carolina is good military recruiting ground, so I imagine they'd cycle in and out of the schedule as well. You may only really be looking for three or four home and homes at a time.

Wish people would stop assuming we should schedule people because they have a need. We have 11 games scheduled for 2022 with an opening for 1 fcs game. Presumably we'd shuffle one of the early games for a home game and some how fit UConn in. Perhaps trade Tulane to UConn and play @UConn on 11/19 and have a fcs home opener would work. But there is NO ROOM for anyone else. We are not going to do serious committing long term beyond 2024, in case the deck chairs start to rearrange. We are making improvements to our stadium, adding an IPF and have a new coaching staff. We'll fall a bit but currently our 2020 recruiting class is rated #76 while UConn is #149. (The have to be closer by the time all letters are signed, but things are look up in the future for UMass.)

2022 schedule:
09/03 - at Tulane
09/10 - at Toledo
09/17 - at Boston College
09/22 - at Temple
10/01 - at Eastern Michigan
10/08 - New Mexico State
10/15 - Buffalo
10/22 - at USF
10/29 - Liberty
11/12 - at Arkansas State
11/26 - Army

Yea, I'd imagine that UMass would prefer to play a home game before mid-October and swapping out @Tulane for a home FCS to kick off the season and then playing UConn in November would work better for everyone involved (assuming Tulane gets a little money for their trouble).

It's not that UMass would be scheduling teams just because that team needs a game, it's that it's easier for all sides to have your late season a little more squared away with offset arrangements so you have a more balanced home/away schedule (as opposed to opening the season with five straight road games) and your FCS opponent early in the schedule.

Maybe NC A&T could be a powerhouse. Not like being good at FCS matters when going FBS. I would say being good at FCS is the last thing that matters for a FCS to G5 team. For G5 to P5 yeah you better be amazing.

(08-17-2019 01:38 PM)Mav Wrote:  

(08-17-2019 12:03 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(08-17-2019 11:17 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-16-2019 10:00 PM)Mav Wrote:  How many FBS programs does North Carolina need?

With 6 already, they have more than anyone but California, Texas, Florida and Ohio with a fraction of the talent of those states. And with 4 P5, they have more than anyone but Texas.

NC has 7 FBS programs. The same number as CA, FL, and OH
UNC
NC State
Duke
Wake
ECU
Charlotte
App

NC also has 7 FCS programs compared to 4 from CA, 4 from FL, and 2 from OH
NC A&T
NC Central
Western Carolina
Davidson
Elon
Campbell
Gardener Webb

So NC has a total of 14 D1 football schools, 2nd only to Texas at 20 with 12 FBS/8 FCS

Exactly. The talent's not there and the high schools aren't getting better, in fact, programs are closing due to lack of interest. None of the programs in NC have been that good apart from App State. ECU's best years are behind them and the only time you see UNC good is when they're cheating their butts off. Even California and Texas have their bad programs with the amount of talent they have in those states.

If I'm A&T I look at what a disaster the Charlotte experiment's been and count my blessings.

We are coming back we just had a bad coach. App state, ECU, and NC State are the best football programs in the state. App will beat UNC this year no problem

(08-18-2019 03:08 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Perhaps the question we need to be asking is under what circumstances could an HBCU or HBCUs make it in FBS?

For starters, I think they’d need a travel friendly regional conference home and I don’t think they could go at it alone. I think at a minimum 2 would have to come up together, potentially needing 4. I think they’d also need FCS HBCU schools willing to play them at home or in a neutral site classic setting. Any HBCU moving up to FBS would need to plan on playing 2 FCS HBCUs a year to maintain fan interest among those rooted in the HBCU identity.

With that being said, I don’t know that I’m the present situation there are any FBS conferences interested in adding 4 HBCU schools.

It wouldn't work unless they were able to move up as a bloc and start a new conference. Apart from a few exceptions like Howard, HBCUs have nearly no academic standards (it's not in their mission to be choosy) and rely heavily on the HBCU culture as a draw. They're also extremely poor at Olympic sports. Other conferences would be a little leery to take them in, especially since I'm sure they'd know that their fanbase would evaporate overnight if they went from playing other HBCUs to a bunch of G5 schools. It's a totally different dynamic, and really the only situation that could be compared is the Ivies.

(08-18-2019 05:51 PM)Mav Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 03:08 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Perhaps the question we need to be asking is under what circumstances could an HBCU or HBCUs make it in FBS?

For starters, I think they’d need a travel friendly regional conference home and I don’t think they could go at it alone. I think at a minimum 2 would have to come up together, potentially needing 4. I think they’d also need FCS HBCU schools willing to play them at home or in a neutral site classic setting. Any HBCU moving up to FBS would need to plan on playing 2 FCS HBCUs a year to maintain fan interest among those rooted in the HBCU identity.

With that being said, I don’t know that I’m the present situation there are any FBS conferences interested in adding 4 HBCU schools.

It wouldn't work unless they were able to move up as a bloc and start a new conference. Apart from a few exceptions like Howard, HBCUs have nearly no academic standards (it's not in their mission to be choosy) and rely heavily on the HBCU culture as a draw. They're also extremely poor at Olympic sports. Other conferences would be a little leery to take them in, especially since I'm sure they'd know that their fanbase would evaporate overnight if they went from playing other HBCUs to a bunch of G5 schools. It's a totally different dynamic, and really the only situation that could be compared is the Ivies.

One possible problem with moving as a bloc is that, playing each other, they might not be able to meet the requirement to play FBS schools as at least 60% of their opponents. That's the same problem that would be faced by any schools exploiting the supposed FBS WAC loophole. Although perhaps the requirement is waived for the first year of the transition? I dunno.

(08-18-2019 04:14 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 01:24 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 09:05 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-17-2019 07:41 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(08-17-2019 06:42 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  The HBCUs from the SWAC and MEAC are often disparaged at the FCS level, but they dominate FCS attendance.

2018 FCS attendance by conference:

1. SWAC .......................................... 15,240
2. Missouri Valley Football ................... 9,864
3. MEAC ........................................... 9,815
4. Big Sky ......................................... 9,600
5. Colonial ........................................ 9,283
6. Southern ...................................... 7,611
7. Ohio Valley ................................... 7,507
8. Southland ..................................... 7,161
9. Ivy ............................................... 7,108
10. Patriot ......................................... 4,212
11. Big South ..................................... 3,614
12. Pioneer ........................................ 2,684
13. Northeast ..................................... 2,343

That's the only thing they dominate.

Well, it's also easily the most important thing, much more than say winning FCS playoff games.

LOL no. Having a competitive product other than the bands (which draws a good portion of the attendance) is the goal.

LOL no. Attendance means fan support and contributions to school spirit and unity. At the FCS level that's the only thing that matters. Winning meaningless FCS playoff games while drawing 5,000 people is a ridiculous situation.

Way better to draw 14,000 and go 6-6 than go deep in the FCS playoffs while drawing flies.

LOL, again. You are clueless about FCS, and the product.

(08-17-2019 01:38 PM)Mav Wrote:  If I'm A&T I look at what a disaster the Charlotte experiment's been and count my blessings.

The problem with Charlotte was they hot-shot'ed FCS to bulldoze straight into FBS. Raise and spend a lot of money, build an expandable stadium (for that day when they hit the big time), and then...just fail.

They had offers to play in both Big South and CAAF, iirc. CAAF would have been HUGE for them, so they could have gotten some kind of footing in the sport and its D1 operations in one of FCS' best conferences. These guys just nope'd it the heck through to CUSA.

A&T understands D1 football operations, but they're not getting help preparing for anything big doing it in MEAC. And who knows if Big South would want them if FBS isn't an option, but looking to leave MEAC instead...were they good to Hampton on their way out?

(08-18-2019 07:44 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 04:14 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 01:24 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 09:05 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-17-2019 07:41 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  That's the only thing they dominate.

Well, it's also easily the most important thing, much more than say winning FCS playoff games.

LOL no. Having a competitive product other than the bands (which draws a good portion of the attendance) is the goal.

LOL no. Attendance means fan support and contributions to school spirit and unity. At the FCS level that's the only thing that matters. Winning meaningless FCS playoff games while drawing 5,000 people is a ridiculous situation.

Way better to draw 14,000 and go 6-6 than go deep in the FCS playoffs while drawing flies.

LOL, again. You are clueless about FCS, and the product.

(08-18-2019 10:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 10:33 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Sun Belt was very interested in FAMU. League was needing teams and the location fit nicely and once they looked at the books, could not get out of town fast enough. Accountant who looked said I can't tell you what their condition is because its all a mess. Then hosed their I-A transfers by announcing immediately so they had transferred to be immediately eligible and suddenly needed to sit a year.

If FAMU had not been in such a hurry they probably do OK.

Well, FAMU tells a different story. They say *they* were caught off-guard by how quickly the NCAA approved their move to FBS. Rather than being in a hurry, they assumed there would be at least a year's lag, which would allow them the time to sort those issues you mention out. But the NCAA, maybe to help out an HBCU, approved the move instantly, with the resulting problems.

On their 2003 application, FAMU sought FBS status for the 2004 season. But the NCAA actually approved them for the 2003 season, which started just a few months after the application. So they had no time to make any adjustments. Even one year might have been enough.

A key problem was that in the 2002/2003 recruiting cycle, FAMU had signed a bunch of transfers from FBS programs in anticipation of becoming FBS in 2004, including guys from Clemson, VT, and Miami. The coach, and the players, thought they would be immediately eligible to play in 2003, because they were transferring from an FBS to an FCS program. That was a key part of the pitch to these guys, that yes, you are transferring to an FCS school, but we will be FBS after a year, and in the meantime, because we will still be FCS your first year, you can play right now and not sit out.

But once FAMU was declared FBS for 2003, those guys were told they would have to sit out a year like all FBS to FBS transfers, and just about all of them left, severely draining the talent out of that class.

They sent the paperwork declaring their intentions to the NCAA. I'm not sympathetic that their defense was we didn't expect they'd process it when they got it.

(08-18-2019 05:51 PM)Mav Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 03:08 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Perhaps the question we need to be asking is under what circumstances could an HBCU or HBCUs make it in FBS?

For starters, I think they’d need a travel friendly regional conference home and I don’t think they could go at it alone. I think at a minimum 2 would have to come up together, potentially needing 4. I think they’d also need FCS HBCU schools willing to play them at home or in a neutral site classic setting. Any HBCU moving up to FBS would need to plan on playing 2 FCS HBCUs a year to maintain fan interest among those rooted in the HBCU identity.

With that being said, I don’t know that I’m the present situation there are any FBS conferences interested in adding 4 HBCU schools.

It wouldn't work unless they were able to move up as a bloc and start a new conference. Apart from a few exceptions like Howard, HBCUs have nearly no academic standards (it's not in their mission to be choosy) and rely heavily on the HBCU culture as a draw. They're also extremely poor at Olympic sports. Other conferences would be a little leery to take them in, especially since I'm sure they'd know that their fanbase would evaporate overnight if they went from playing other HBCUs to a bunch of G5 schools. It's a totally different dynamic, and really the only situation that could be compared is the Ivies.

NCA&T's mileage may vary but Arkansas-Pine Bluff suffered when they left the SWAC and affiliating with the Arkansas Intercollegiate Conference didn't help at all. They quickly went independent strung together the best HBCU schedule they could in the NAIA until they rejoined the SWAC.

(08-18-2019 04:49 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  The going to FBS seems to work with schools gaining more fans. UTSA was below 10,000 while being in the Southland. While joining FBS? They went to almost 30,000 fans and they get P5 schools to visit. Tennessee State would be a good candidate to join FBS. Who would say no going to Nashville playing in the home stadium of the Titans? They used to be an independent in 1A now FBS.

Florida A&M, North Carolina A&T and Jackson State have large stadiums themselves who could host a bowl game. Tennessee State right there with them.

UTSA never played football in the Southland and never averaged below 10K in attendance.

(08-19-2019 10:25 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 10:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-18-2019 10:33 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Sun Belt was very interested in FAMU. League was needing teams and the location fit nicely and once they looked at the books, could not get out of town fast enough. Accountant who looked said I can't tell you what their condition is because its all a mess. Then hosed their I-A transfers by announcing immediately so they had transferred to be immediately eligible and suddenly needed to sit a year.

If FAMU had not been in such a hurry they probably do OK.

Well, FAMU tells a different story. They say *they* were caught off-guard by how quickly the NCAA approved their move to FBS. Rather than being in a hurry, they assumed there would be at least a year's lag, which would allow them the time to sort those issues you mention out. But the NCAA, maybe to help out an HBCU, approved the move instantly, with the resulting problems.

On their 2003 application, FAMU sought FBS status for the 2004 season. But the NCAA actually approved them for the 2003 season, which started just a few months after the application. So they had no time to make any adjustments. Even one year might have been enough.

A key problem was that in the 2002/2003 recruiting cycle, FAMU had signed a bunch of transfers from FBS programs in anticipation of becoming FBS in 2004, including guys from Clemson, VT, and Miami. The coach, and the players, thought they would be immediately eligible to play in 2003, because they were transferring from an FBS to an FCS program. That was a key part of the pitch to these guys, that yes, you are transferring to an FCS school, but we will be FBS after a year, and in the meantime, because we will still be FCS your first year, you can play right now and not sit out.

But once FAMU was declared FBS for 2003, those guys were told they would have to sit out a year like all FBS to FBS transfers, and just about all of them left, severely draining the talent out of that class.

They sent the paperwork declaring their intentions to the NCAA. I'm not sympathetic that their defense was we didn't expect they'd process it when they got it.

FAMU had what seemed to be a sound strategy: Apply in 2003 for FBS status in 2004, and in the meantime, build up talent by being in the unique situation of FBS transfers being able to play immediately in 2003 (because FAMU would still be FCS) but with the knowledge that the next year, they would be FBS.

What I think FAMU missed was that the NCAA policy was to grant a "provisional" FBS status the year before a program formally became FBS, and in that provisional year, the program would essentially be subject to all the rules, including the transfer rules, of a regular FBS program.

That's what happened - in 2003, FAMU applied for FBS status for 2004, but was tripped up when that was granted, with provisional FBS status for 2003, not FCS status.

NCAA rules can be arcane, but sure, they should have known that.

I am wondering, why nobody til yet came up with a discussion about a possible merger with UNC Greensboro, which is across the city not that far away. Both are public and would have a combined enrollment of 32000 Students. Well I know, you cannot merge easily HBCU's with PWI's. Different missions, lost jobs, tradition, faculty and students against merging etc. etc.

But this is exactly what happened in Nashville where public UT Nashville was merged into public Tennessee State (HBCU).

A combined university in Greensboro may have the financial resources and alumni support to risk upgrading to FBS. And the City Greensboro would be a North Carolina FBS-City like Durham, Raleigh, Chapel Hill, Winston Salem, Charlotte, Greenville and Boone

..In 1968, the college officially changed its name to Tennessee State University. And in 1979, the University of Tennessee at Nashville merged into Tennessee State due to a court mandate.[6]...
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_...University

(08-19-2019 11:54 AM)Across the Pond Wrote:  I am wondering, why nobody til yet came up with a discussion about a possible merger with UNC Greensboro, which is across the city not that far away. Both are public and would have a combined enrollment of 32000 Students. Well I know, you cannot merge easily HBCU's with PWI's. Different missions, lost jobs, tradition, faculty and students against merging etc. etc.

But this is exactly what happened in Nashville where public UT Nashville was merged into public Tennessee State (HBCU).

A combined university in Greensboro may have the financial resources and alumni support to risk upgrading to FBS. And the City Greensboro would be a North Carolina FBS-City like Durham, Raleigh, Chapel Hill, Winston Salem, Charlotte, Greenville and Boone

..In 1968, the college officially changed its name to Tennessee State University. And in 1979, the University of Tennessee at Nashville merged into Tennessee State due to a court mandate.[6]...
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_...University

Mergers are a lot tougher for educational institutions than businesses. Virginia Commonwealth University was created by state law in 1969 as a consequence of the merger of Richmond Professional Institute and Medical College of Virginia. MCV was allowed to maintain its identity as part of VCU until the early 2000s, at which point they became VCU Medical Center. Doctors with MCV degrees to this date still fume over their history and tradition being subsumed into VCU's.

I think UNC Greensboro and North Carolina A&T are distinct enough that cramming them together like two midsize banks would not work at all.

(08-18-2019 04:49 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  The going to FBS seems to work with schools gaining more fans. UTSA was below 10,000 while being in the Southland. While joining FBS? They went to almost 30,000 fans and they get P5 schools to visit. Tennessee State would be a good candidate to join FBS. Who would say no going to Nashville playing in the home stadium of the Titans? They used to be an independent in 1A now FBS.

Florida A&M, North Carolina A&T and Jackson State have large stadiums themselves who could host a bowl game. Tennessee State right there with them.

Which season was that for UTSA? Their first season, as an FCS independent, they averaged over 30k. They went to the FBS WAC the next year, and then CUSA.

(08-19-2019 11:54 AM)Across the Pond Wrote:  I am wondering, why nobody til yet came up with a discussion about a possible merger with UNC Greensboro, which is across the city not that far away. Both are public and would have a combined enrollment of 32000 Students. Well I know, you cannot merge easily HBCU's with PWI's. Different missions, lost jobs, tradition, faculty and students against merging etc. etc.

But this is exactly what happened in Nashville where public UT Nashville was merged into public Tennessee State (HBCU).

A combined university in Greensboro may have the financial resources and alumni support to risk upgrading to FBS. And the City Greensboro would be a North Carolina FBS-City like Durham, Raleigh, Chapel Hill, Winston Salem, Charlotte, Greenville and Boone

..In 1968, the college officially changed its name to Tennessee State University. And in 1979, the University of Tennessee at Nashville merged into Tennessee State due to a court mandate.[6]...
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_...University

No NC governor would allow that and even the previous veto proof HB1 passing majority legislature wasnt that bold to try.