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Bama fan who killed Auburn trees not paying up
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Gamecock Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Bama fan who killed Auburn trees not paying up
(08-18-2019 02:50 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  Wait a second .... This clown was a retired POLICE OFFICER of some kind?????

What the hell.

Of ALL people, he should have known better.


And if Finebaum is such an inciter of violence, where are all the other examples of his show egging on idiots?

This is all on the clown who poisoned trees. Period.

He was probably pretty normal 30 years ago

Sadly, when people live alone and consume too much media they start to go batshit and sometimes stuff like this happens
08-20-2019 06:22 AM
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Fort Bend Owl Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Bama fan who killed Auburn trees not paying up
I admit I haven't followed the story too closely. Are the original trees all gone (dead) now?

Personally I would have told Updyke to spend the rest of his day going throughout the country like Johnny Appleseed planting new trees. Assuming he's physically able to do so. If not, maybe have him go to schools promoting positive ecology and environment messages to younger generations.

I'm not sure why Auburn needs the money. I'm sure it's expensive to replant new trees and to take out any old dead ones, but I'll bet you Auburn can raise that 800K in seconds from alums if need be.
08-20-2019 06:56 AM
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Post: #43
RE: Bama fan who killed Auburn trees not paying up
(08-18-2019 08:15 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  
(08-18-2019 07:36 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-18-2019 07:15 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  
(08-18-2019 04:48 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  A fine this large for a retired cop is ridiculous. It's setting him up for debtors' prison.

The judge was sending a message. He may as well have made it a bagillion dollars, since it will never be paid anyways. I know a lot of people (law abiding citizens but with low impulse control and low education) who would have interpreted this message the same way as Updike. Their response would be "f-you, judge" and ignored the order.

Yes, he probably should have Filed a Motion. But who gets to rule on that motion?

And if you're facing $800,000 in fines, what lawyer will file the paperwork for you?

It's on Updike to know not to do what he did in the first place. Since he flunked that choice, it's on him to seek legal remedies within the system. He's paid less than $1,000 per year since 2013. If you have an income issue, go back to court instead of breaking a court order and getting yourself in a deeper hole. What did he think? His failure to pay was going to go unnoticed until he died? Man up and face the consequences.

I'd be willing to waive the damages if he would agree to be a human test subject for Roundup's effects upon the human body.

Yep. Or, he has to work off the fine doing manual labor at an oak tree farm operated by Auburn University. The Auburn logo is in full view everywhere he goes...

[Image: auburn-tigers.jpg]

See, that's just it. Any of those punishments would be understandable. Community service, jail time, human science experiment (ok that one's a bit extreme even for me...)

But the judge didn't give those as punishment. Instead, he made it about money. $800,000 is easy for a wealthy person to pay off and doable (although somewhat painful) for an upper-middle income person to pay off. But for a working class person it's impossible.

It's the same thing with traffic fines. A $200 traffic ticket is nothing to me. Has no impact at all. For the guy doing my drywall, a $200 traffic ticket is the difference between his 2 kids being able to play little league this year. And there's thousands of people in jail right now because they literally had to choose between a traffic ticket or paying the electric bill.


By making it about money, the judge set it up so that the guy would never be able to pay off his debt to society.

And maybe that's the point: the judge meant this as an insult. If Updike had $5 million in a retirement account, would the judge have given the same punishment?


But Updyke's response is 100% predictable. Just ignore it, and make the court come after you. He's 71, he's not exactly living for tomorrow. It's taken them 8 years to get around to this and with appeals he can probably drag it out another 5. By then the jailer isn't going to prioritize a nonviolent 76 year old who's not a repeat offender.
08-20-2019 07:00 AM
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TripleA Online
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Post: #44
RE: Bama fan who killed Auburn trees not paying up
(08-20-2019 06:56 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I admit I haven't followed the story too closely. Are the original trees all gone (dead) now?

Personally I would have told Updyke to spend the rest of his day going throughout the country like Johnny Appleseed planting new trees. Assuming he's physically able to do so. If not, maybe have him go to schools promoting positive ecology and environment messages to younger generations.

I'm not sure why Auburn needs the money. I'm sure it's expensive to replant new trees and to take out any old dead ones, but I'll bet you Auburn can raise that 800K in seconds from alums if need be.

I live just outside Auburn. It was two live oak trees, estimated to be about 130 years old.

The restitution money doesn't go to Auburn, and has nothing to do with replacing the trees. It goes to the court. The number was calculated by the court as the cost of transportation, food and lodging for about 50 witnesses, plus the deposition of several experts who charged by the hour, and other associated court costs. (I know, excessive maybe, but legal).

That came to about $400K. Alabama state law, under the statute with which Updyke was charged (felony damage to an agricultural facility), then automatically doubles that number.
(This post was last modified: 08-20-2019 08:01 PM by TripleA.)
08-20-2019 09:08 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Bama fan who killed Auburn trees not paying up
I think a lot of us might be talking about two different things.

It could be the case that the $800,000 in restitution was an excessive punishment for the crime regardless of whether a person is Jeff Bezos or a retired cop on a pension.

By the same token, a fair punishment (whatever that might be under the law) should be the same regardless of whether a person is Jeff Bezos or a retired cop on a pension.

To me, the financial status of the criminal is irrelevant. If $800,000 is what it takes to compensate the property owner/state/other injured parties for the damage plus providing a disincentive for society as a whole to perform copycat crimes, then that needs to be the punishment without regard to whether the criminal can actually pay it back or not.

The latter disincentive from a public policy perspective is certainly critical. If all that a judge could assess was a payment of direct damages, then you could easily envision a constant war of Alabama and Auburn partisans destroying each other's campus property because the financial penalties would be comparatively low (while the negative societal impact would be very high). It needed to be nipped in the bud completely from the get go.

Now, whether the calculation of the $800,000 figure itself is excessive even taking into account that disincentive is an entirely different matter. That figure could have been totally out of line with the crime... but once again, that should have nothing to do with whether the perpetrator was a billionaire or a retired pensioner. Updyke could have attempted to appeal that judgment, although it doesn't appear that he did.
08-20-2019 09:16 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Bama fan who killed Auburn trees not paying up
(08-20-2019 09:08 AM)TripleA Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 06:56 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I admit I haven't followed the story too closely. Are the original trees all gone (dead) now?

Personally I would have told Updyke to spend the rest of his day going throughout the country like Johnny Appleseed planting new trees. Assuming he's physically able to do so. If not, maybe have him go to schools promoting positive ecology and environment messages to younger generations.

I'm not sure why Auburn needs the money. I'm sure it's expensive to replant new trees and to take out any old dead ones, but I'll bet you Auburn can raise that 800K in seconds from alums if need be.

I live just outside Auburn. It was two live oak trees, estimated to be about 130 years old.

The restitution money doesn't go to Auburn, and has nothing to do with replacing the trees. It goes to the court. The number was calculated by the court as the cost of transportation, food and lodging for about 50 witnesses, plus the deposition of several experts who charged by the hour, and other associated court costs. (I know, excessive maybe, but legal).

That came to about $400K. Alabama state law, under the statute with which Updyke was charged (felony damage to an agricultural center), then doubles that number.

Thanks - that appears to be a reasonable calculation. I wouldn't be shocked at all that court costs would be around $400,000 for a case like this one.
08-20-2019 09:21 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Bama fan who killed Auburn trees not paying up
(08-20-2019 06:22 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(08-18-2019 02:50 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  Wait a second .... This clown was a retired POLICE OFFICER of some kind?????

What the hell.

Of ALL people, he should have known better.


And if Finebaum is such an inciter of violence, where are all the other examples of his show egging on idiots?

This is all on the clown who poisoned trees. Period.

He was probably pretty normal 30 years ago

Sadly, when people live alone and consume too much media they start to go batshit and sometimes stuff like this happens

That's a very valid observation Gamecock. I'm not sure it has a bearing in this case but it is valid nonetheless.

These comments are directed at several various posts. Yes they were trees, but they were as iconic to Auburn folks as Denny Chimes would be to Alabama fans. But Updyke didn't just kill the trees he killed the soil almost to a depth of 20 feet. New live oaks were planted after the first soil removal, but they died too. The Spike 80 penetrated deeper than the first soil removal so a second soil removal from ~ 1/4 of an acre was necessary and this time the excavation was much deeper. I believe the trees that are presently there are the second set to be planted. And to put it into perspective my grandchildren will not live long enough to see them grown back to what had been the state of the original trees which could have lived much much longer than they had. The real shame here is it wasn't a building that could have been rebuilt to specifications.

To those who doubt the actual, though not necessarily legal, culpability of Finebaum I merely wonder without him stirring the malcontented would an Updyke ever have considered an act such as this with which to try to attain notoriety? I say it would have been most unlikely. Without a public figure to try to impress, his actions would not have given him the same degree of personal recognition or importance that he craved. And for anyone to make a living by stirring and mocking some of the most fragile among us only to pass it off as entertainment has to be one of the cruelest and vilest occupations ever conceived, and wholly a disservice to the public good. And ESPN endorses this.
(This post was last modified: 08-20-2019 04:43 PM by JRsec.)
08-20-2019 12:35 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Bama fan who killed Auburn trees not paying up
(08-20-2019 12:35 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 06:22 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(08-18-2019 02:50 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  Wait a second .... This clown was a retired POLICE OFFICER of some kind?????

What the hell.

Of ALL people, he should have known better.


And if Finebaum is such an inciter of violence, where are all the other examples of his show egging on idiots?

This is all on the clown who poisoned trees. Period.

He was probably pretty normal 30 years ago

Sadly, when people live alone and consume too much media they start to go batshit and sometimes stuff like this happens

That's a very valid observation Gamecock. I'm not sure it has a bearing in this case but it is valid nonetheless.

These comments are directed at sever various posts. Yes they were trees, but they were as iconic to Auburn folks as Denny Chimes would be to Alabama fans. But Updyke didn't just kill the trees he killed the soil almost to a depth of 20 feet. New live oaks were planted after the first soil removal, but they died too. The Spike 80 penetrated deeper than the first soil removal so a second soil removal from ~ 1/4 of an acre was necessary and this time the excavation was much deeper. I believe the trees that are presently there are the second set to be planted. And to put it into perspective my grandchildren will not live long enough to see them grown back to what had been the state of the original trees which could have lived much much longer than they had. The real shame here is it wasn't a building that could have been rebuilt to specifications.

To those who doubt the actual, though not necessarily legal, culpability of Finebaum I merely wonder without him stirring the malcontented would an Updyke ever have considered an act such as this with which to try to attain notoriety? I say it would have been most unlikely. Without a public figure to try to impress, his actions would not have given him the same degree of personal recognition or importance that he craved. And for anyone to make a living by stirring and mocking some of the most fragile among us only to pass it off as entertainment has to be one of the cruelest and vilest occupations ever conceived, and wholly a disservice to the public good. And ESPN endorses this.

I was going off on a bit of a tangent, but I know plenty of retirees (including large numbers of ex cops) that are frankly impossible to spend any amount of time around because they live in a weird bubble and are angry at the world for whatever reason. Not really worth delving into here, though.

As for Updyke, what happened was horrible and if the same thing was done to SCs Horseshoe then I'd probably be just as mad as any Auburn fan. But frankly the 800,000 number seems arbitrary and excessive. Prison is probably a waste as well but perhaps a lengthy (multi year) period of house arrest with realistic fines would have been more appropriate.
08-20-2019 02:30 PM
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TripleA Online
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Post: #49
RE: Bama fan who killed Auburn trees not paying up
(08-20-2019 12:35 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-20-2019 06:22 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  
(08-18-2019 02:50 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  Wait a second .... This clown was a retired POLICE OFFICER of some kind?????

What the hell.

Of ALL people, he should have known better.


And if Finebaum is such an inciter of violence, where are all the other examples of his show egging on idiots?

This is all on the clown who poisoned trees. Period.

He was probably pretty normal 30 years ago

Sadly, when people live alone and consume too much media they start to go batshit and sometimes stuff like this happens

That's a very valid observation Gamecock. I'm not sure it has a bearing in this case but it is valid nonetheless.

These comments are directed at several various posts. Yes they were trees, but they were as iconic to Auburn folks as Denny Chimes would be to Alabama fans. But Updyke didn't just kill the trees he killed the soil almost to a depth of 20 feet. New live oaks were planted after the first soil removal, but they died too. The Spike 80 penetrated deeper than the first soil removal so a second soil removal from ~ 1/4 of an acre was necessary and this time the excavation was much deeper. I believe the trees that are presently there are the second set to be planted. And to put it into perspective my grandchildren will not live long enough to see them grown back to what had been the state of the original trees which could have lived much much longer than they had. The real shame here is it wasn't a building that could have been rebuilt to specifications.

To those who doubt the actual, though not necessarily legal, culpability of Finebaum I merely wonder without him stirring the malcontented would an Updyke ever have considered an act such as this with which to try to attain notoriety? I say it would have been most unlikely. Without a public figure to try to impress, his actions would not have given him the same degree of personal recognition or importance that he craved. And for anyone to make a living by stirring and mocking some of the most fragile among us only to pass it off as entertainment has to be one of the cruelest and vilest occupations ever conceived, and wholly a disservice to the public good. And ESPN endorses this.

I was listening to Finebaum during that period. There is no doubt that he was egging on both sides, for his show's benefit, b/c it's essentially a fan call-in show. But I don't think Finebaum, whom I dislike intensely, did anything you could pin on him legally, unless the state or feds write a new law.

Unethical, probably, but what on the air or social media doesn't cross the line these days? Sports is actually tame ground compared to politics. Not making excuses for the guy, I pull for Auburn, but just making observations.
(This post was last modified: 08-20-2019 09:18 PM by TripleA.)
08-20-2019 08:09 PM
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