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Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
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zibby Offline
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MyBB Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
The Horizon is going to 11. Don't be surprised if they go to 20 conference games, which would mean fewer OOC games for each team. The MAAC is also at 11 and plays 20 conference games. UB and Niagara couldn't find a date that worked for them last year and didn't play. The ACC also is going to 20 conference games, which will mean fewer guarantee games for mid-majors.

I think the MAC will eventually be forced to play 20 conference games.
08-06-2019 06:59 AM
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cleveland Online
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
(08-06-2019 06:59 AM)zibby Wrote:  The Horizon is going to 11. Don't be surprised if they go to 20 conference games, which would mean fewer OOC games for each team. The MAAC is also at 11 and plays 20 conference games. UB and Niagara couldn't find a date that worked for them last year and didn't play. The ACC also is going to 20 conference games, which will mean fewer guarantee games for mid-majors.

I think the MAC will eventually be forced to play 20 conference games.

ABSOLUTELY ... POSITIVELY ...HELL NO!!!

This is all about the NCAA Tournament. The reason the Big Boys are going to 20 games is to keep from playing YOU.

The less games mid-majors have vs. power conference teams, the less chances for at-large bids for mid-majors. It justifies .500 power conference teams that pull one homecourt upset over a team they play three times a year every year and that justifies a NCAA bid.

bull****

They should win one out of six...

ON THE CONTRARY ...

If the NCAA was really looking at keeping an even playing field, they would outlaw 20-game conference seasons. It's strictly designed to KEEP YOU OUT!!!

Wake up.
08-06-2019 09:15 AM
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Kit-Cat Offline
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
20 games and remove divisions.
08-06-2019 10:53 AM
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
Remove 20 games and go to 20 divisions. Toledo leads the Swamp division but is in 2nd in the Erie division.
08-06-2019 11:18 AM
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cleveland Online
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
(08-06-2019 10:53 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  20 games and remove divisions.

And you still wind up with an uneven schedule ...

Go back to the original format ... first two games crossover next five division - next six crossover ... last five division.

More entertaining ... better for rivalries ... two crossover games are when students still on break ... all division games are when students are in school.
08-06-2019 12:22 PM
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axeme Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
But why are we sticking with divisional schedules when all that matters is what your record is overall? I understand rivalries and each team should be able to designate a mutual rival that they would play twice every year, but we have the smallest footprint of any similar conference and there is no need served by sticking with geographical based schedules. Maybe designate UB and NIU to play only once a season but there is no apparent reason not to mix everything else up each year. And having divisional standings is just stupid when it doesn't mean anything. You have divisional standings when there is a purpose to having teams win their division, a la football.
08-06-2019 12:37 PM
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cleveland Online
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
(08-06-2019 12:37 PM)axeme Wrote:  But why are we sticking with divisional schedules when all that matters is what your record is overall? I understand rivalries and each team should be able to designate a mutual rival that they would play twice every year, but we have the smallest footprint of any similar conference and there is no need served by sticking with geographical based schedules. Maybe designate UB and NIU to play only once a season but there is no apparent reason not to mix everything else up each year. And having divisional standings is just stupid when it doesn't mean anything. You have divisional standings when there is a purpose to having teams win their division, a la football.

I respect those who like order, and a 'reason' for everything. But the fact there is no reward for winning a division (although most teams post a banner in the rafters when they win one) does not make it bad ...
1) the division-crossover-division model offers consistent scheduling.
2) the double-crossover changes every year adds intrigue

Going into last season the fact Buffalo played Eastern Michigan twice (and both teams were expected to be contenders) drew a lot of regional and some national attention. The fact those two games came within 10-days or so of each other pretty much propped up the Bulls and hastened EMU's downward spiral.

If that schedule had been aligned with the old format, the first EMU/UB game would have been the season-opener, while the second would have been in early February.

Maybe it would not have impacted the outcomes for either team but then again ...

Guess I'm saying Divisions really don't bother me in basketball, even if they have little overall impact on MAC Tournament seeding or anything else for that matter. (Other than two 'championship' banners flying around the league every year instead of one.

Just me.
(This post was last modified: 08-06-2019 01:45 PM by cleveland.)
08-06-2019 01:44 PM
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axeme Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
Actually, the UB/EMU example would be more likely if the schedule could be made without being bound by the way schedules have been done by division. The MAC would likely be better served by making a schedule with an eye on the recent strength of teams in some way rather than being locked into a schedule with little flexibility as it has been for a long time. It made some sense when the divisions were relevant. Now? I see no advantage to the conference. I'm firmly on the side of things making sense. I'd follow the lead of the many other basketball conferences that have all the teams in one standing, which is the de facto way it is anyway. I'm baffled that the MAC sticks with the way it does it once the change was made that eliminated divisions as a factor in the post-season.
08-06-2019 06:29 PM
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cleveland Online
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
(08-06-2019 06:29 PM)axeme Wrote:  Actually, the UB/EMU example would be more likely if the schedule could be made without being bound by the way schedules have been done by division. The MAC would likely be better served by making a schedule with an eye on the recent strength of teams in some way rather than being locked into a schedule with little flexibility as it has been for a long time. It made some sense when the divisions were relevant. Now? I see no advantage to the conference. I'm firmly on the side of things making sense. I'd follow the lead of the many other basketball conferences that have all the teams in one standing, which is the de facto way it is anyway. I'm baffled that the MAC sticks with the way it does it once the change was made that eliminated divisions as a factor in the post-season.

The majority (though certainly not all) of conferences that have eliminated divisions are power conferences - why - because finishing 6-7-8 in a 15-team league and a .500 record looks a lot better than being two 5-6 teams in divisions.

Again ... think NCAA Tournament and the selection process. I would take the MAC 2-3 teams over ANY major conference 6-7-8 or lower head-to-head in just about any year. But you will never see it because the powers that be are ingrained to believe that a .500 power conference team is better.

As for the MAC, I believe over the last 4-5 years the bottom of the league has improved to the point that 10-11 MAC teams are 275 RPI or better.

If everything was even ... I say your point is more than valid. But it's not even, in terms of NCAA Tournament, so stopping the PC teams from playing 20 conference games (and the MAC avoiding same) improves the odds - marginally, I agree - but something is more than nothing.

And again, while divisions may not add anything, still don't think it hurts.
08-06-2019 06:57 PM
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UofToledoFans Offline
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
(08-06-2019 06:57 PM)cleveland Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 06:29 PM)axeme Wrote:  Actually, the UB/EMU example would be more likely if the schedule could be made without being bound by the way schedules have been done by division. The MAC would likely be better served by making a schedule with an eye on the recent strength of teams in some way rather than being locked into a schedule with little flexibility as it has been for a long time. It made some sense when the divisions were relevant. Now? I see no advantage to the conference. I'm firmly on the side of things making sense. I'd follow the lead of the many other basketball conferences that have all the teams in one standing, which is the de facto way it is anyway. I'm baffled that the MAC sticks with the way it does it once the change was made that eliminated divisions as a factor in the post-season.

The majority (though certainly not all) of conferences that have eliminated divisions are power conferences - why - because finishing 6-7-8 in a 15-team league and a .500 record looks a lot better than being two 5-6 teams in divisions.

Again ... think NCAA Tournament and the selection process. I would take the MAC 2-3 teams over ANY major conference 6-7-8 or lower head-to-head in just about any year. But you will never see it because the powers that be are ingrained to believe that a .500 power conference team is better.

As for the MAC, I believe over the last 4-5 years the bottom of the league has improved to the point that 10-11 MAC teams are 275 RPI or better.

If everything was even ... I say your point is more than valid. But it's not even, in terms of NCAA Tournament, so stopping the PC teams from playing 20 conference games (and the MAC avoiding same) improves the odds - marginally, I agree - but something is more than nothing.

And again, while divisions may not add anything, still don't think it hurts.
I don't think another conference in NCAA bb has divisions for basketball...

They do nothing but keep Toledo from playing BG twice per year and warrant a champion that has no meaning. There is no pro to divisions but keeps NIU from playing UB twice, 2 years in a row. So just get rid of em.

Every team in the league gets one rival that is a guaranteed home and home. The rest is pulled from a hat. Seed based on overall 1-12 like they do now. Don't give out silly division titles.
08-06-2019 07:14 PM
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
It is already hard to get games scheduled for the OOC. The big boys don't want to play and any decent Mid-major doesn't want to play in your house either. Go to 22 games, eliminate the divisions and schedule OOC accordingly.
08-06-2019 08:24 PM
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
Drop divisions, go to 20, pick the two skips by last year's finish ... 1 skips 11 and 12, 2 skips 10 and 12, 3 skips 10 and 11, and so on.
08-06-2019 08:47 PM
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pono Offline
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
the MAC is only divisional basketball conference.

the 2nd or 3rd MAC team is not better than the .500 6th or 7th place P5 conf team in most years. the problem is P5 losing teams getting in the dance and 1st place mid majors getting left out. plus, watching two 8-10 conf teams in the play in game is less interesting than a matchup w a good mid major. there are plenty of ways to make scheduling and tourney comparisons more fair but the NCAA is not going to go there.
08-07-2019 12:54 AM
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Post: #14
RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
(08-06-2019 08:24 PM)luckyflash Wrote:  It is already hard to get games scheduled for the OOC. The big boys don't want to play and any decent Mid-major doesn't want to play in your house either. Go to 22 games, eliminate the divisions and schedule OOC accordingly.

Then you can get some nice December MAC games scheduled as well.

Its better for the fans than a DII opponent or a mid major.
08-07-2019 07:29 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
(08-06-2019 09:15 AM)cleveland Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 06:59 AM)zibby Wrote:  The Horizon is going to 11. Don't be surprised if they go to 20 conference games, which would mean fewer OOC games for each team. The MAAC is also at 11 and plays 20 conference games. UB and Niagara couldn't find a date that worked for them last year and didn't play. The ACC also is going to 20 conference games, which will mean fewer guarantee games for mid-majors.

I think the MAC will eventually be forced to play 20 conference games.

ABSOLUTELY ... POSITIVELY ...HELL NO!!!

This is all about the NCAA Tournament. The reason the Big Boys are going to 20 games is to keep from playing YOU.

The less games mid-majors have vs. power conference teams, the less chances for at-large bids for mid-majors.

Playing 16 conference games rather than 20 games does not actually force the "power conference" schools to sign more contracts to play MAC schools. So the argument is disconnected from the conclusion.
08-10-2019 02:25 AM
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cleveland Online
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
(08-10-2019 02:25 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 09:15 AM)cleveland Wrote:  
(08-06-2019 06:59 AM)zibby Wrote:  The Horizon is going to 11. Don't be surprised if they go to 20 conference games, which would mean fewer OOC games for each team. The MAAC is also at 11 and plays 20 conference games. UB and Niagara couldn't find a date that worked for them last year and didn't play. The ACC also is going to 20 conference games, which will mean fewer guarantee games for mid-majors.

I think the MAC will eventually be forced to play 20 conference games.

ABSOLUTELY ... POSITIVELY ...HELL NO!!!

This is all about the NCAA Tournament. The reason the Big Boys are going to 20 games is to keep from playing YOU.

The less games mid-majors have vs. power conference teams, the less chances for at-large bids for mid-majors.

Playing 16 conference games rather than 20 games does not actually force the "power conference" schools to sign more contracts to play MAC schools. So the argument is disconnected from the conclusion.

TRUE ...
However, the opportunity is still there to IMPOSE on PC schools to play more mids, especially if NCAA makes it clear that is an emphasis on selection process FOR THE PCs
Right now, the constant argument to keep mids out is ... 'you didn't play anybody' ... playing 20-22 conference games is not going to get another mid in the ncaa tournament. Period.
Playing 16-18 conference games, then trying to get 3-4-5 PCs to play you in a give year MIGHT get the job done.
AT LEAST KEEP THE OPPORTUNITY ALIVE ... absolutely no chance for a mid to get an at-large playing 20-22 conference games the way mids schedule right now.
08-10-2019 11:24 AM
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
I would think 2 div winners would be better
But you also 2 div races & that helps atten
Sch any way you want, 20 is too much
08-10-2019 01:45 PM
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Kit-Cat Offline
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
One way to answer this is how many non-conference games did everyone play last season?

Kent St 12
Ball St 12
Toledo 12
Buffalo 12
Akron 11
Ohio 11
Miami 11
WMU 11
BGSU 11
NIU 11
CMU 10
EMU 9

I was a little surprised to see the MAC didn't play any DII last year although a lot of buy games against SWAC, MEAC and Southland dotted the schedule.

Also noted that Miami/Ball St and BG/Toledo only played 1 time. What is the point of an 18 game schedule then?

Smallest Conference schedules in DI (with latest conference moves)

Ivy-14
WAC-14
American East-16
Atlantic Sun-16

Everyone else has at least 10 members moving forward and on a double round robin is playing an 18 game schedule.

Maybe the MAC could get away with a 16 game schedule (10 divisional games and 6 cross divisional) and do alright like Cleveland said.

Division titles might benefit programs in recruiting just like minor boxing titles on the line make a televised boxing match more interesting, even if the real value is marginal.
(This post was last modified: 08-10-2019 02:22 PM by Kit-Cat.)
08-10-2019 02:19 PM
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
(08-10-2019 11:24 AM)cleveland Wrote:  However, the opportunity is still there to IMPOSE on PC schools to play more mids, especially if NCAA makes it clear that is an emphasis on selection process FOR THE PCs

I don't see the opportunity for "the NCAA" to impose any such thing on the "power conferences".

Quote: AT LEAST KEEP THE OPPORTUNITY ALIVE ... absolutely no chance for a mid to get an at-large playing 20-22 conference games the way mids schedule right now.

The minute that the NCAA starts moving toward rules that makes it in the interest of larger numbers of Power Conference schools to schedule MAC schools, the MAC can begin preparation to go to a shorter conference schedule. Indeed, without divisions and with skips based on last year's conference records, it is free to move anywhere from 12 conference games to 22, so if the rules are put in place, the MAC could move incrementally from 20 to 18 to 16 and ... if there was a benefit to doing so ... 14 or fewer.
08-12-2019 04:00 AM
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cleveland Online
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RE: Does MAC BB need to go to 20 conference games?
(08-12-2019 04:00 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(08-10-2019 11:24 AM)cleveland Wrote:  However, the opportunity is still there to IMPOSE on PC schools to play more mids, especially if NCAA makes it clear that is an emphasis on selection process FOR THE PCs

I don't see the opportunity for "the NCAA" to impose any such thing on the "power conferences".

Quote: AT LEAST KEEP THE OPPORTUNITY ALIVE ... absolutely no chance for a mid to get an at-large playing 20-22 conference games the way mids schedule right now.

The minute that the NCAA starts moving toward rules that makes it in the interest of larger numbers of Power Conference schools to schedule MAC schools, the MAC can begin preparation to go to a shorter conference schedule. Indeed, without divisions and with skips based on last year's conference records, it is free to move anywhere from 12 conference games to 22, so if the rules are put in place, the MAC could move incrementally from 20 to 18 to 16 and ... if there was a benefit to doing so ... 14 or fewer.

One more fly in the soup ... with power conference teams given free run by the NCAA to poach players from mid-majors (and yes, that is what's happening) ... to base next years schedule off the previous years results (and future expectations) is dicey at best. More like a roll of the dice.

True, the MAC has not been hit as hard as many mid-majors with top shelf seniors leaving ... but it still happens. And to expect every MAC team to hold its players together for four years, like Buffalo, is certainly the goal, but who wants to bet on it.

Don't chase ghosts .. 18-game MAC schedule, and improved non-con schedule -- even if it means more road games -- should be the overall goal, particularly for the consistent winners - Buffalo, Toledo, Ball State, Kent State.
08-12-2019 06:04 PM
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