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Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 10:17 AM)zablenoise Wrote:  I think Tony's coaching is right at the heart of the disagreement.

Coming out of this year the only reason I wanted to keep Tony on was out of "fairness".

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I think the failure of the school to be fair, and to keep Tony on ... plus the lack of gratitude, loyalty, and class ... is the heart of the disagreement, and the rest of this crap about record and tactics is a smokescreen.

Remember, the school brought the record crap to the fore as it was part of the firing announcement.

The firing of Tony Shaver was not fair, and exhibited no class, disloyalty, and ingratitude... with the same message being conveyed to those of us who supported the efforts of Tony Shaver during the course of his years at W&M.

This is big picture stuff ... not records ... not Dance tickets ... but virtuous, big picture, stuff.

Tony was a gem. We were fortunate to have him, his staff, and the players he recruited. We are poorer for no longer having him, the majority of his staff, and some of his recruited players.
05-21-2019 10:56 AM
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TDenverFan Online
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Post: #22
RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 04:57 AM)Kaplankrazies Wrote:  If W&M played in the Ivy League, Shaver would not have been a sub-.500 coach. The CAA got multiple at-large bids and final 4 berths during the first half of his tenure and it’s ridiculous to think we should’ve been consistently finishing over .500 vs those teams. Stripping this context from your analysis is lazy and I hope you don’t judge our new coach so superficially after the team wins 4 games this year.

If you compare their record over the past 5 years (So after ODU/VCU/GMU/GSU left and Elon/CoC were added) the CAA and Ivy are generally ranked in the same area. In fact, by some metrics the Ivy was ranked well ahead of the CAA this year (http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html). Over that era, Jones still has a better record than Shaver does - Yale has finished 1st in the Ivy regular season 3 times over the past 5 years.


(05-21-2019 09:15 AM)nj alum Wrote:  James Jones:

2000- first year (D-1)
2002- reg season tie for first ... NIT
2012- CIT
2014- CIT
2015- reg season tie for first ... lost playoff game
2016- reg season champ ... auto bid ... NCAA second round
2019- reg season tie for first ... won two playoff games ... NCAA

Tony Shaver:

1987- first year (D-3)
1989- Sweet 16
1992- reg season first ... Sweet 16
1994- Sweet 16
1995- reg season first ... Elite 8
1997- First Round
1998- reg season tie for first ... Sweet 16
1999- reg season first ... Runner-up
2000- reg season first ... Second round
2001- reg season tie for first ... Second round
2002- Second round
2003- reg season tie for first ... Final Four

2004- first year (D-1)
2008- won three playoff games, lost one
2010- won two playoff games, lost one ... NIT
2014- won two playoff games, lost one
2015- reg. season tie for first ... won two playoff games, lost one ...NIT

At W&M, Tony Shaver did not coach in an eight team league, unlike Yale.

At W&M, Tony Shaver did not have an automatic bid associated with a regular season championship available to him, unlike Yale.

At W&M, Tony Shaver had to win 3-4 four games in the CAA tourney to get the bid, unlike Yale which only has to win two in the modern era.

Most importantly ... :-) ... do ya think Coach Jones and his program benefited from the 2012 and 2014 CIT bids which most on here scorn?

Keep smearing the best men's basketball coach that W&M has ever had ... my feelings of disgust aren't limited to the two people who drove Tony and his staff out of town.

Part of me doesn't know if it's worth responding. I don't think you're going to change your mind, and that's fine. I also don't think anyone is really smearing Shaver. Nobody disagrees that Shaver is a good coach, and a good guy. But at a certain point the excuses are getting a little extreme.

In terms of the Ivy League tournament format:

W&M finished tied for first once over Shaver's tenure, so the CAA Tournament helped us, not hurt. And yes, the Ivy league tournament only has 4 teams, but it's the top 4 teams in the conference. If we get bounced by the 10 seed in the CAA Tournament, we're not deserving of making March Madness.

And though the Ivy tournament is only 4 teams, that does mean you have to do well in the regular season to get in. If the CAA tournament was only 4 teams we would have qualified for it 6 of Shaver's 16 seasons.

And while it was never on our home court, it was in Richmond for much of that time, which is about as close as you can get.

So I think the CAA format actually benefits W&M more than the Ivy league version would from a perspective of making the dance.

At a certain point, you have to win the games you play, and beat your conference opponents. Unless you want W&M to drop to the Patriot, we'll have to deal with the CAA. We're definitely never going to be the biggest fish in the pond, but that doesn't mean that we should give a pass for everything.
05-21-2019 11:37 AM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
2019 final NET: Indians 195 (14-17) Bulldogs 78 (22-8)
2018 final RPI: Indians 92 (19-12) Bulldogs 189 (16-15)
2017: 112 (15-14) 127 (17-11)
2016: 72 (18-11) 43 (22-7)
2015: 99 (18-13) 66 (20-10)
2014: 124 (19-12) 104 (18-14)
2013: 261 (12-17) 199 (12-17)
2012: 297 (5-26) 108 (17-10)
2011: 227 (9-22) 160 (14-13)
2010: 60 (21-11) 267 (11-19)
2009: 238 (9-20) 225 (12-15)
2008: 159 (15-16) 183 (12-15)
2007: 203 (15-15) 140 (13-13)
2006: 263 (8-20) 197 (15-14)
2005: 286 (8-21) 192 (11-16)
2004: 264 (7-21) 209 (11-15)
05-21-2019 01:28 PM
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Tribewins Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
Anyone that didn’t think we got our butts outcoached during the tourney loss to Delaware is either in denial or doesn’t know basketball. 1st half we were rolling. 2nd half a disaster, that’s about in game adjustments. Delaware took away all of our back door cuts and sagged on Nate. How? By literally daring our PGs to shoot from outside. Outside of Matt, They stopped guarding the perimeter! Like playing 4 on 5 inside of 15 feet! Kinda hard for Nate to operate down low or Justin to slash or hit the floaters he hit in the 1st half.

The counter to that defense is putting subbing Paul in for our PGs as another shooter. Remember we run a positionless 5 out motion offense (or 4 out with Nate posting), so we don’t need a true PG in. A lineup of Chase/Justin/Matt/Paul/Nate would have been a great counter move! It didn’t happen. In fact Paul Rowley only played 10 minutes in his final game at W&M——very sad and to borrow a term others coined on this board, malpractice, but This time by the coach.
05-21-2019 03:16 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
There’s a third possibility ... didn’t watch the game.

Wonder why that was?
05-21-2019 03:24 PM
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Kaplankrazies Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 11:37 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 04:57 AM)Kaplankrazies Wrote:  If W&M played in the Ivy League, Shaver would not have been a sub-.500 coach. The CAA got multiple at-large bids and final 4 berths during the first half of his tenure and it’s ridiculous to think we should’ve been consistently finishing over .500 vs those teams. Stripping this context from your analysis is lazy and I hope you don’t judge our new coach so superficially after the team wins 4 games this year.

If you compare their record over the past 5 years (So after ODU/VCU/GMU/GSU left and Elon/CoC were added) the CAA and Ivy are generally ranked in the same area. In fact, by some metrics the Ivy was ranked well ahead of the CAA this year (http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html). Over that era, Jones still has a better record than Shaver does - Yale has finished 1st in the Ivy regular season 3 times over the past 5 years.


(05-21-2019 09:15 AM)nj alum Wrote:  James Jones:

2000- first year (D-1)
2002- reg season tie for first ... NIT
2012- CIT
2014- CIT
2015- reg season tie for first ... lost playoff game
2016- reg season champ ... auto bid ... NCAA second round
2019- reg season tie for first ... won two playoff games ... NCAA

Tony Shaver:

1987- first year (D-3)
1989- Sweet 16
1992- reg season first ... Sweet 16
1994- Sweet 16
1995- reg season first ... Elite 8
1997- First Round
1998- reg season tie for first ... Sweet 16
1999- reg season first ... Runner-up
2000- reg season first ... Second round
2001- reg season tie for first ... Second round
2002- Second round
2003- reg season tie for first ... Final Four

2004- first year (D-1)
2008- won three playoff games, lost one
2010- won two playoff games, lost one ... NIT
2014- won two playoff games, lost one
2015- reg. season tie for first ... won two playoff games, lost one ...NIT

At W&M, Tony Shaver did not coach in an eight team league, unlike Yale.

At W&M, Tony Shaver did not have an automatic bid associated with a regular season championship available to him, unlike Yale.

At W&M, Tony Shaver had to win 3-4 four games in the CAA tourney to get the bid, unlike Yale which only has to win two in the modern era.

Most importantly ... :-) ... do ya think Coach Jones and his program benefited from the 2012 and 2014 CIT bids which most on here scorn?

Keep smearing the best men's basketball coach that W&M has ever had ... my feelings of disgust aren't limited to the two people who drove Tony and his staff out of town.

Part of me doesn't know if it's worth responding. I don't think you're going to change your mind, and that's fine. I also don't think anyone is really smearing Shaver. Nobody disagrees that Shaver is a good coach, and a good guy. But at a certain point the excuses are getting a little extreme.

In terms of the Ivy League tournament format:

W&M finished tied for first once over Shaver's tenure, so the CAA Tournament helped us, not hurt. And yes, the Ivy league tournament only has 4 teams, but it's the top 4 teams in the conference. If we get bounced by the 10 seed in the CAA Tournament, we're not deserving of making March Madness.

And though the Ivy tournament is only 4 teams, that does mean you have to do well in the regular season to get in. If the CAA tournament was only 4 teams we would have qualified for it 6 of Shaver's 16 seasons.

And while it was never on our home court, it was in Richmond for much of that time, which is about as close as you can get.

So I think the CAA format actually benefits W&M more than the Ivy league version would from a perspective of making the dance.

At a certain point, you have to win the games you play, and beat your conference opponents. Unless you want W&M to drop to the Patriot, we'll have to deal with the CAA. We're definitely never going to be the biggest fish in the pond, but that doesn't mean that we should give a pass for everything.
If the point you are trying to make is Jones is 5-10% better in W/L(and there’s no way that stat can be flawed with unbalanced schedules), congratulations! If you think it makes the comparison out of bounds, you’re being ridiculous. Very clearly similar scenarios. There are many coaches we could not sign that are better than Shaver and we could spend all day debating them, but there is little evidence readily available the coach we did sign is an improvement.

Love posters seemingly indicating we should fire our coach every time we lose a mildly important game and the coach deserves some of the lame. Fortunately our AD is as reactionary as this message board! Maybe our freshman guards were the reason Delaware won that game. Regardless of the Monday morning quarterbacking, I prefer to look at a larger sample. I came into last season hoping for the best but focused on 2020. 2020 was our year, and gross malpractice took it away from us all.

The all-star coaches on this board with minor tactical gripes got their wish and now we have 6 scholarship players and a recruiting class that resembles a Golden Corral at 10:30 pm. Enjoy the next few 5 win seasons, the administration doesn’t deserve you.
(This post was last modified: 05-21-2019 03:36 PM by Kaplankrazies.)
05-21-2019 03:30 PM
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Rocco Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
Instead of a statue W&M should commission a crucifix with an image of Shaver on it, then display it in Wren Chapel. Solves multiple problems in one swoop.
05-21-2019 03:35 PM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
Rocco- You are absolutely correct. This was a crucifixion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u1RrWj4RDk

"Some people think the Crucifixion only took place on Calvary. They better wise up. Taking Joey Doyle’s life to stop him from testifying is a crucifixion. And droppin’ a sling on Kayo Dugan because he was ready to spill his guts tomorrow – that’s a crucifixion! And every time the mob puts the crusher on a good man, tries to stop him from doing his duty as a citizen – it’s a crucifixion. And anybody who sits around and lets it happen, keeps silent about something he knows has happened, shares the guilt of it just as much as the Roman soldier who pierced the flesh of Our Lord to see if He was dead. Boys, this is my church! And if you don’t think Christ is down here on the waterfront, you’ve got another guess coming! Every morning when the hiring boss blows his whistle, Jesus stands alongside you in the shape up. He sees why some of you get picked and some of you get passed over. He sees the family men worrying about gettin’ the rent and gettin’ food in the house for the wife and the kids. He sees you sellin’ your souls to the mob for a day’s pay and what does Christ think of the easy-money boys who do none of the work and take all of the gravy? And how does he feel about the fellows who wear a hundred and fifty dollar suits and diamond rings, on your union dues and your kickback money? And how does He, who spoke up without fear against every evil, feel about your silence?… You want to know what’s wrong with our waterfront? It’s the love of a lousy buck. It’s makin’ the love of the lousy buck, the cushy job, more important than the love of man! It’s forgettin’ that every fellow down here is your brother in Christ! But remember, Christ is always with you. Christ is in the shape up. He’s in the hatch. He’s in the union hall. He’s kneeling right here beside Dugan. And He’s sayin’ with all of you, if you do it to the least of mine, you do it to me! And what they did to Joey, and what they did to Dugan, they’re doin’ to you. And you. You. All of you! And only you, only you with God’s help, have the power to knock ’em out for good."

Lot of food for thought here.
05-21-2019 03:44 PM
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mrjoolius Online
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Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
This thread...
[Image: i7S7Mb1.gif]
05-21-2019 04:23 PM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
That's not the Purdue Boilermaker special, is it?
05-21-2019 04:31 PM
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Zorch Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 03:16 PM)Tribewins Wrote:  The counter to that defense is putting subbing Paul in for our PGs as another shooter.

The problem with that was that Rowley kept refusing to shoot -- even when he was wide open.

(05-21-2019 03:30 PM)Kaplankrazies Wrote:  I came into last season hoping for the best but focused on 2020. 2020 was our year, and gross malpractice took it away from us all.

The firing was bad on the personal/personnel level. That is half of the equation. The other half of the equation was, as Kaplankrazies says above, that what many of us believe was our best chance was just simply pulled out from under us --- for no apparent good reason. Nathan Knight has the chance to be statistically the best W&M player ever -- but unless a miracle happens next year he will not get the chance to win that championship he deserves. And, yes, even if we do somehow win next year, I would have had to assume that we would have done even better with the full team back. We will never get the chance to know what might have happened.
05-21-2019 05:27 PM
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zablenoise Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 10:33 AM)Kaplankrazies Wrote:  So you want Huge to read the market but don’t hold yourself to the same standard? The question should be is Shaver a better coach and program leader than our next option. It’s obvious we aren’t a basketball hotbed and attractive candidates won’t be interested in W&M. Shaver clearly is better than the next best option when you look at the situation as a whole(including the players he brought in and retained) and a personal tactical gripe doesn’t outweigh that.

Wait what? Of course I hold the AD to a higher standard. It's literally her job to know how her actions affect our program.

As for the rest, I mostly agree. Tony's tactics have been a sore spot with me for years but I thought that realistically we weren't gonna get a better coach. Then we switched ADs and she nabbed a solid hire (imo) for replacing Jimmye and started funding COA and there was talk of improving facilities and giving more institutional support to the basketball program and increasing salaries and I thought maybe she can get us a better coach. But I was wrong. Not only did she not land a slam dunk hire but she set the program on fire in the process. And all that talk of institutional support etc hasn't materialized into anything concrete.

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05-21-2019 07:56 PM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 10:33 AM)Kaplankrazies Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 10:17 AM)zablenoise Wrote:  I think Tony's coaching is right at the heart of the disagreement.

Despite all he did for the program, some of us (me included) thought Tony's tactics and management were holding the team back. The 2014 Championship was an example. The tourney game this year was an example. There are numerous others.

Coming out of this year the only reason I wanted to keep Tony on was out of "fairness". I thought he deserved one last ride. But I thought on merit Huge was justified. That was also assuming she understood what the coaching market looked like and would be able to improve the program. Clearly that didn't happen. Not a knock on Dane but you can't say we're better off now.

So you want Huge to read the market but don’t hold yourself to the same standard? The question should be is Shaver a better coach and program leader than our next option. It’s obvious we aren’t a basketball hotbed and attractive candidates won’t be interested in W&M. Shaver clearly is better than the next best option when you look at the situation as a whole(including the players he brought in and retained) and a personal tactical gripe doesn’t outweigh that.

That remains to be seen. Shaver was clearly better than what we had, but he was rarely the best coach in the conference. He got his CoY hardware on the basis of being a fantastic recruiter, but didn't get the best out of the players on the court. Like zablenoise said, you can think that the firing was justified and still think Huge screwed the whole thing up. If she had a well-vetted replacement ready, or even an idea of what the market would be like, rather than making a decision in the heat of anger, most of the fanbase wouldn't have reacted like this. 6-26 with Marcus Thornton and Quinn McDowell would get most coaches fired.
(This post was last modified: 05-21-2019 09:46 PM by WMInTheBurg.)
05-21-2019 09:40 PM
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-21-2019 03:44 PM)nj alum Wrote:  Rocco- You are absolutely correct. This was a crucifixion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u1RrWj4RDk

"Some people think the Crucifixion only took place on Calvary. They better wise up. Taking Joey Doyle’s life to stop him from testifying is a crucifixion. And droppin’ a sling on Kayo Dugan because he was ready to spill his guts tomorrow – that’s a crucifixion! And every time the mob puts the crusher on a good man, tries to stop him from doing his duty as a citizen – it’s a crucifixion. And anybody who sits around and lets it happen, keeps silent about something he knows has happened, shares the guilt of it just as much as the Roman soldier who pierced the flesh of Our Lord to see if He was dead. Boys, this is my church! And if you don’t think Christ is down here on the waterfront, you’ve got another guess coming! Every morning when the hiring boss blows his whistle, Jesus stands alongside you in the shape up. He sees why some of you get picked and some of you get passed over. He sees the family men worrying about gettin’ the rent and gettin’ food in the house for the wife and the kids. He sees you sellin’ your souls to the mob for a day’s pay and what does Christ think of the easy-money boys who do none of the work and take all of the gravy? And how does he feel about the fellows who wear a hundred and fifty dollar suits and diamond rings, on your union dues and your kickback money? And how does He, who spoke up without fear against every evil, feel about your silence?… You want to know what’s wrong with our waterfront? It’s the love of a lousy buck. It’s makin’ the love of the lousy buck, the cushy job, more important than the love of man! It’s forgettin’ that every fellow down here is your brother in Christ! But remember, Christ is always with you. Christ is in the shape up. He’s in the hatch. He’s in the union hall. He’s kneeling right here beside Dugan. And He’s sayin’ with all of you, if you do it to the least of mine, you do it to me! And what they did to Joey, and what they did to Dugan, they’re doin’ to you. And you. You. All of you! And only you, only you with God’s help, have the power to knock ’em out for good."

Lot of food for thought here.

Alec Baldwin's monologue early in Glengarry Glen Ross is more appropriate. Tribe hoops fans don't want to hear "the leads are weak" or listen to all the other excuses Shaver apologists trot out for his long-term lack of success. Tony's undoubted "loyalty, gratitude and class" is beside the point as well. This isn't some church league. For better or worse, you win as a D1 basketball coach and you get the Cadillac. You lose and you're fired. Plus, Tony got a nice severance package- far more than a set of steak knives.
05-22-2019 07:08 AM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
Until this year, Tony’s teams hadn’t had a losing record since 2013, and W&M was the only CAA school to have won ten conference games or more the last six years. Coaches with that type of record don’t get fired ... not in D-1 ... not in church ... Only in the world of delusion does a coach with that type of record get fired.

You’ve gone off script.

Stick with the failure to make the Dance argument.

As for the severance package, good for Tony .... egregious problem for a school that rakes in 80% of its funding based on the good will of alumni and friends.
(This post was last modified: 05-22-2019 08:09 AM by nj alum.)
05-22-2019 08:08 AM
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Kaplankrazies Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-22-2019 07:08 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  
(05-21-2019 03:44 PM)nj alum Wrote:  Rocco- You are absolutely correct. This was a crucifixion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u1RrWj4RDk

"Some people think the Crucifixion only took place on Calvary. They better wise up. Taking Joey Doyle’s life to stop him from testifying is a crucifixion. And droppin’ a sling on Kayo Dugan because he was ready to spill his guts tomorrow – that’s a crucifixion! And every time the mob puts the crusher on a good man, tries to stop him from doing his duty as a citizen – it’s a crucifixion. And anybody who sits around and lets it happen, keeps silent about something he knows has happened, shares the guilt of it just as much as the Roman soldier who pierced the flesh of Our Lord to see if He was dead. Boys, this is my church! And if you don’t think Christ is down here on the waterfront, you’ve got another guess coming! Every morning when the hiring boss blows his whistle, Jesus stands alongside you in the shape up. He sees why some of you get picked and some of you get passed over. He sees the family men worrying about gettin’ the rent and gettin’ food in the house for the wife and the kids. He sees you sellin’ your souls to the mob for a day’s pay and what does Christ think of the easy-money boys who do none of the work and take all of the gravy? And how does he feel about the fellows who wear a hundred and fifty dollar suits and diamond rings, on your union dues and your kickback money? And how does He, who spoke up without fear against every evil, feel about your silence?… You want to know what’s wrong with our waterfront? It’s the love of a lousy buck. It’s makin’ the love of the lousy buck, the cushy job, more important than the love of man! It’s forgettin’ that every fellow down here is your brother in Christ! But remember, Christ is always with you. Christ is in the shape up. He’s in the hatch. He’s in the union hall. He’s kneeling right here beside Dugan. And He’s sayin’ with all of you, if you do it to the least of mine, you do it to me! And what they did to Joey, and what they did to Dugan, they’re doin’ to you. And you. You. All of you! And only you, only you with God’s help, have the power to knock ’em out for good."

Lot of food for thought here.

Alec Baldwin's monologue early in Glengarry Glen Ross is more appropriate. Tribe hoops fans don't want to hear "the leads are weak" or listen to all the other excuses Shaver apologists trot out for his long-term lack of success. Tony's undoubted "loyalty, gratitude and class" is beside the point as well. This isn't some church league. For better or worse, you win as a D1 basketball coach and you get the Cadillac. You lose and you're fired. Plus, Tony got a nice severance package- far more than a set of steak knives.
This all assumes our alternative is a winning D1 basketball coach. We got an unknown and lost one of the(if not the) most talented rosters in school history as part of this transaction. The program is worse as a result of losing him, period. I don’t care much about Tony’s personal emotion, but thinking Dane minus 1.5MM minus our entire starting lineup is a net positive is something I will never be able to relate to.

To all the folks saying Shaver should be fired but also Huge should be blamed for botching the hiring process, I think these things are much more market driven than that. We were never going to hire away highly successful mid-major head coaches or JT3 as this board speculated. This is not an attractive job and we weren’t able to pay above and beyond market rate as a direct result of the Shaver firing. To try to frame each transaction as separate and unrelated is divorced from reality.
05-22-2019 09:49 AM
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zablenoise Offline
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Post: #37
Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
I've seen elsewhere that Huge thought she had JT3. I don't think we'll ever really know but it seems clear to me that she overplayed her hand.

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05-22-2019 09:55 AM
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Marshall Wythe Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
I know this thread has veered far away from my original post, but I actually kind of like it.

I think we finally teased out some important conversation about Shaver's true coaching ability. I am happy to see the critical analysis, and I have learned a lot from it. In particular, I truly appreciated the comments by Tribewins on the loss to Delaware in the CAA tourney. I think there are some very fair criticisms of Coach Shaver's coaching ability.

With that said, assuming (for the sake of argument) that we'd never get better with Shaver at the helm, I think AD Huge made 2 big mistakes.

1 - The Timing - Considering the fact that most of us believed next year was our best chance at an NCAA bid, she would have been much better served to let Shaver have that one year. If a lot of players walked away before the season, or if he came up far short again, I think many more of us would understand the need to try something new. Instead, she now owns the loss of our best chance at NCAA bid, the loss of incredible talent, the creation of a rebuilding status that may last for years, and an irate fanbase.

2 - The Market - With no new infusion of cash for salary and facilities, I don't understand how on Earth she thought we were going to get an upgrade at the coaching spot. Had she waited a year, she could also have started a fundraising initiative to get us the facilities (or at least show we were trying) that would be needed to help recruit a better coach. Instead, we are left with a guy who seems very nice and capable but offers nothing on his resume that gives us any real optimism for the coming years. We can only hope that he overachieves.

So, even if you do think Shaver had plateaued as a coach, and the Tribe needed to try something new, I think you can still hold plenty of enmity in your heart for how Huge mishandled the situation and turned it into an absolute debacle.
(This post was last modified: 05-22-2019 10:08 AM by Marshall Wythe.)
05-22-2019 10:07 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-22-2019 09:55 AM)zablenoise Wrote:  I've seen elsewhere that Huge thought she had JT3. I don't think we'll ever really know but it seems clear to me that she overplayed her hand.

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You don't say.

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05-22-2019 10:19 AM
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Tribe2011 Offline
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RE: Two Similar - Then Suddenly Different - Approaches (Yale and William & Mary)
(05-22-2019 10:07 AM)Marshall Wythe Wrote:  I know this thread has veered far away from my original post, but I actually kind of like it.

I think we finally teased out some important conversation about Shaver's true coaching ability. I am happy to see the critical analysis, and I have learned a lot from it. In particular, I truly appreciated the comments by Tribewins on the loss to Delaware in the CAA tourney. I think there are some very fair criticisms of Coach Shaver's coaching ability.

With that said, assuming (for the sake of argument) that we'd never get better with Shaver at the helm, I think AD Huge made 2 big mistakes.

1 - The Timing - Considering the fact that most of us believed next year was our best chance at an NCAA bid, she would have been much better served to let Shaver have that one year. If a lot of players walked away before the season, or if he came up far short again, I think many more of us would understand the need to try something new. Instead, she now owns the loss of our best chance at NCAA bid, the loss of incredible talent, the creation of a rebuilding status that may last for years, and an irate fanbase.

2 - The Market - With no new infusion of cash for salary and facilities, I don't understand how on Earth she thought we were going to get an upgrade at the coaching spot. Had she waited a year, she could also have started a fundraising initiative to get us the facilities (or at least show we were trying) that would be needed to help recruit a better coach. Instead, we are left with a guy who seems very nice and capable but offers nothing on his resume that gives us any real optimism for the coming years. We can only hope that he overachieves.

So, even if you do think Shaver had plateaued as a coach, and the Tribe needed to try something new, I think you can still hold plenty of enmity in your heart for how Huge mishandled the situation and turned it into an absolute debacle.

I think this post above is probably the best summary of the situation. Basically A) Shaver is a good coach for WM and great person who did impressive work rejuvenating the program and deserves his plaudits as a key part of our program, B) he had some shortcomings (in addition to a hell of a lot of strengths) as a coach and 16 years to make the tourney that at least made moving on at some point arguably justifiable, C) despite Shaver failing to get over the hump, it's highly uncertain to unlikely whether we will be able to get a coach as good as him in the near future, and will in large part depend on us getting lucky, D) firing Shaver at this moment made no sense for basketball OR political reasons. I personally think we would have been 3rd or so on paper in conference with Pierce and maybe Milon still leaving if Shaver stayed, but even letting Shaver coach through end of Knight tenure would have gotten way more fan buy in even if last season was a failure (and ideally it wouldn't have been).

I think where people on this board disagree is whether firing Shaver was a bad move because of the timing and the fact that we likely can't get a better coach here, or whether it was objectively evil because Shaver deserved a lifetime contract regardless of results and he should be kept even if we COULD get a better coach.
05-22-2019 11:08 AM
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