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P8triotfan4life Offline
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Post: #1
Calm Down
All,

Deep breath here. Things will be OK in Tribe country very soon. For goodness sake, you guys were 14-17 overall last year with all of this talent and only 10-8 in the CAA that had only 3 teams that played well overall. Pierce and Milon are leaving for a better chance at an NCAA bid. Can't blame them. They will have Tribe degrees. Brown backed out because that is what 18 year-olds do.

What happened today happens in every college program.

When Dave Paulsen took over for Paul Hewitt at GMU, we lost our #1 recruit signed to Minnesota. Our #2 recruit went to Ohio State.

Hewitt could recruit but couldn't coach. Paulsen can coach but isn't a great recruiter at GMU. Dane and Paulsen have a secret for success and that is recruiting zero and one star recruits who are driven gym rats that can be coached. Expect this a lot during Fischer's tenure.

If Knight returns, I am confident Fischer can ride an 8-9 man rotation to immediate success in year #1. Audige returning would be gravy, but I am keeping my eye on PG Jordan Hairston from Northern Virginia who Dane has been in contact with as a PG. They say PG is the most important position on the court.Keep your eyes peeled on what Dane recruits at that position. PG Otis Livingston II turned OK for GMU--he was a zero star recruit from NJ who was an undersized gym rat and ended up as a top 15 player in GMU Hoops history. Give Dane a chance for 2-3 years. He will get this ship right.

Thanks,
P8
(This post was last modified: 05-01-2019 06:40 PM by P8triotfan4life.)
05-01-2019 06:39 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Calm Down
The ship was fine.

We’re going in for a complete overhaul. It’s going to take a couple of years.

We get it.

Was the overhaul necessary? That’s between us and our AD.

We like Dane, and will hopefully grow to love him.

We loved Tony.

We can spit and chew gum.
05-01-2019 07:15 PM
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TribeInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Calm Down
I'm assuming the reply was "No I will not."
05-01-2019 07:46 PM
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Tribeheart Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Calm Down
Hmmm, so P8, you are singing the accolades of your current HC and his past assistants who can't recruit, but can coach, and whose only accomplishments in four years is winning a single A10 tournament game in just three of the four years, despite the decline of the A10, and paying to lose a CBI game in one of those years. Good luck with your calmness again next year, and having a bar of winning one A10 tournament game, again. It ain't going to get any better with Christian now in your backyard.

We are facing a real possibility of only having seven scholarship players on the team next year, with a serious shortage of backcourt/wing personnel, so, rotation will be by default, and injuries not an option.
Retaining Audige and Owens is about more than just gravy.

Add to that the reality that we will lose our two star bigs after next year, with only one returning big who will have any experience. The prospect of getting no 2019 commit(s) is disaster for any hoped for success in Fischer's five years, especially if we're left with only three players in the 2018 class.

Even Bob McKillop knows he has to get some level of talent (more than just 0 star gym rats) to develop and coach them up and compete. Paulsen is no McKillop. With all due respect to Paulsen being Dane's mentor, I hope Paulsen is no Fischer, also.
(This post was last modified: 05-01-2019 09:07 PM by Tribeheart.)
05-01-2019 07:50 PM
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FauqDawg10 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Calm Down
I'm sure things will be okay. My complaints all have to do with the fact that things were better than okay and improving, and I have to watch these dominoes all fall for reasons I consider entirely self-inflicted. But that has been discussed ad nauseum and I think we're (mostly) all ready to look forward.
05-01-2019 09:00 PM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: Calm Down
The only people who supported this move were the “Dancers”.

Imagine their shock as it’s dawning on them that this is a re-build, and that getting to the Dance would have happened quicker under Tony than it will under Dane.

As a result, their sole remaining argument is to circle the wagons, and defend the AD, knowing full well that this was a screw-up, but not admitting same. Not a good place to be, “Dancers”.

It’s more sane to defend the AD, but admit that this was a major screw-up ... my position.

Tony was treated like dirt. There was no need for a re-build. Now that the re-build is here, so be it ... but the re-build will happen without my financial support.
05-02-2019 05:38 AM
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LeadBolt Online
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Post: #7
RE: Calm Down
(05-02-2019 05:38 AM)nj alum Wrote:  The only people who supported this move were the “Dancers”.

Imagine their shock as it’s dawning on them that this is a re-build, and that getting to the Dance would have happened quicker under Tony than it will under Dane.

As a result, their sole remaining argument is to circle the wagons, and defend the AD, knowing full well that this was a screw-up, but not admitting same. Not a good place to be, “Dancers”.

It’s more sane to defend the AD, but admit that this was a major screw-up ... my position.

Tony was treated like dirt. There was no need for a re-build. Now that the re-build is here, so be it ... but the re-build will happen without my financial support.

The highlighted portions above pretty well describe where we are, but all the wailing and gnashing of teeth will not change anything.

At this point I see no need to either defend the AD nor condemn her until we get more evidence as to whether this is an isolated screw-up or not.

Criticism is in order. How Tony was treated is really unforgivable.
05-02-2019 06:15 AM
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Blow Gym rat Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Calm Down
If you will tolerate a brief visit from an ex-Tribe fan, I offer you the following pure, unadulterated speculation, in the finest spirit of this Board.

Regarding the treatment of Tony I wonder if, coming off the relatively successful Jimmye-to-London transition, Ms. Huge initially tried to do a similar nudge-out-the-door with Tony, once she had decided she wanted him gone.

"Gosh Tony, you know we love you and you've done great things here, but hey, you've just turned 65. Wouldn't you rather spend more time with family and on the golf course, instead of stressing about whether some 18-year-old is going to miss a free throw?"

Conceivably, she might even have offered him 2019-20 as a "farewell tour" similar to what Jimmye had -- if that had occurred, it would have taken the wind out of the sails of virtually all of her critics on this Board, me included. Thinking creatively, she might even have used that year as an opportunity for a fundraising campaign for the "Tony Shaver Basketball Center," to seal Tony's legacy at W&M.

There also would need to have been a financial incentive, given what Tony stood to receive under the contract if she just flat-out fired him.

But whereas Jimmye was pretty much ready to retire anyway (or at least close to it), maybe Tony either (a) wasn't ready to go, or (b) wanted to attach strings to his departure, like "Jon Holmes will be my successor," that Ms. Huge wasn't willing to accept. ("I run this department, not you -- we'll do a national search like we did for Jimmye's replacement, and maybe find a biggish name like we did with London, and make a splash for me, oops I mean the College.") Things might even have gotten a bit heated.

Or maybe they just couldn't agree on the dollars.

Under this (admittedly fanciful and entirely speculative) scenario, when Tony didn't take the carrot, she applied the stick, without an adequate backup plan in place as to what would happen next. And created the smoldering almost-but-not-quite-a-dumpster-fire that we have today.

(Because here at W&M, "we will not shy away from setting the bar high" as to what constitutes a dumpster fire -- we need to wait until it has been extinguished and forensically investigated, and a formal declaration issued by the fire marshal).

Frankly, the more I think about it, if she didn't at least TRY to offer a scenario like this (with farewell tour, fundraising, etc.) to Tony, she should have.

But that's just me.

Now, back to my newly-rediscovered fandom for my other alma mater. Nice seeing everybody.

(Edit: Let me add, in parting, that none of this is in any way negative toward Coach Fischer, who seems like a nice young man and who I wish well. He's fighting the fire ... uh, smolder ... he inherited).
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2019 11:27 AM by Blow Gym rat.)
05-02-2019 09:04 AM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Calm Down
(05-02-2019 09:04 AM)Blow Gym rat Wrote:  Under this (admittedly fanciful and entirely speculative) scenario ...

But that's just me.

It is not just you -- and I don't think that it is fanciful. I have thought about that same scenario several times myself.

Tony did not go along with the plan ...so Huge had to get rid of him sooner rather than later. However, her contingency plans fell through and she was left scrambling. She didn't get who she wanted and now she is "hoping and praying" that Fischer turns out halfway decent -or- that Fischer gets super lucky with the Knight-led team next year -or- that she can find some other decent landing spot before the villagers come after her with their torches and pitchforks.

I think Huge was super lucky in that Laycock was (choose one: willing / amenable to being talked into / loved the college so much that he didn't want to make a stink) so that she was able to move him out without causing a commensurate furor.
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2019 10:01 AM by Zorch.)
05-02-2019 09:56 AM
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LeadBolt Online
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Post: #10
RE: Calm Down
The scenario that BGr laid out with Tony coaching 2019-2020 would have been acceptable to me as an approach to the situation.

Tony would have reached "full retirement age" as defined by the feds for social security under that scenario and he would have had his best chance to win the CAA and go dancing. I would have hoped that he would have had the chance to stay on, if he succeeded in winning the CAA tourney, but that's probably more than the AD probably was willing to offer.

It would have satisfied me, kept Cam coming in, perhaps kept Milon, and most likely kept LJ and Chase. I would have hoped that it would have given us a better shot at Burke Smith and the other high quality 2020 targets.
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2019 10:25 AM by LeadBolt.)
05-02-2019 10:20 AM
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TribePride91 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Calm Down
Agree with the 3 posts above. Add also a loss to her former school on March 10th in gut wrenching fashion and the deal was sealed. The difference in football and basketball was this: Football had 3 fairly significant down seasons in a row with an offense that was among the worst in the country. Coach Laycock had a nice retirement send off and was even at the press conference for Coach London. Finally, the team was essentially in rebuilding mode(anyone who was at Homecoming 2017 could see how far we had to go). So, all parties at least publicly handled the transition reasonably. Anything less than what was done would have resulted in a much larger revolt than the one we have seen here.

For basketball, (if a transition was desired and it clearly was by some key people), the team had better prospects for 2019 than football did for 2018. As for the conjecture that Shaver would want Holmes to succeed him, that makes sense. Such a move would have likely maintained the excellent recruiting we have seen over the last 5-6 years. But, perhaps the worst fallout from this was the missed opportunity to push in all chips on 2019-2020 with Shaver. The potential for excitement in the return to the Northern Virginia area for the tournament with a team of players fully immersed in the system and Cam Brown would have placed the Tribe as likely favorites. There would have been financial opportunities for the school and publicity for the team next year. Fail to deliver on that promise with Nate, Andy, and Matt(and possibly Justin) graduating and there would have been nowhere near the fallout within the alumni or the team. Plus, it would have allowed possibly an additional quality 2019 player and better traction for 2020 with families, potential recruits, the media, and the community at large. Now, even if success is found, a significant portion of the alumni, prior existing team, community and media are not going to be behind it and excited for it.

Most everyone seemed reasonably pleased at the results of the 2017-2018 team. It is amazing it went south so quickly. I am still not sure that 20 minutes in Charleston were all it took. I won't be watching Tribe basketball in 2019-2020. But, I don't blame Coach Fischer and will look forward to 2020-2021 as a fresh start. If the Tribe cuts down the nets in some amazing fashion in March of 2020, those that wanted all this to occur this way can bask in that moment. I just think the chances were substantially reduced with the action last month. I also think that 95% of what has occurred since March 13th was completely predictable and thus should have been rationally avoided. Frankly, the only surprising thing so far was that Luke Loewe is returning. I hope he gets a chance to start next year and to thrive.
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2019 10:39 AM by TribePride91.)
05-02-2019 10:38 AM
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TribeInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Calm Down
(05-02-2019 05:38 AM)nj alum Wrote:  The only people who supported this move were the “Dancers”.

Imagine their shock as it’s dawning on them that ... getting to the Dance would have happened quicker under Tony than it will under Dane.

We're in a really bad place right now that is wholly the making of Huge.

That being said, "would" is carrying a lot of water there. There's no evidence that it would have happened. It might have. I think there's overwhelming evidence that "might" is a much better word.
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2019 09:15 PM by TribeInTheBurg.)
05-02-2019 09:15 PM
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