So, it has been about 10 days since the announcement that set, the generally placid, world of W&M Men's Basketball on its collective ear. I was, as were most W&M alumni and fans, taken by complete surprise both by the suddenness of the announcement and the complete lack of clarity on the "why" of it all.

What I immediately realized, after signing in to this board last Wednesday, was just how deep the emotions brought out by this decision were and how quickly rational thought and honest debate had been pretty much completely tossed out the window by many posters. To support my point, in the first 10 days since the announcement, there have been 26 separate threads started (this is officially #27), comprising close to 100 pages of comments (that's a good size small novel) on this one topic.

Because of the general tone of the comments and the obvious deepness of the emotions involved, I just decided to remove myself from the discussion, for a while, so as not to say something, in the heat of the moment, that, looking back later, I might regret and just wait till things cooled down a bit.

Having kept an eye on the situation, it is apparent that most posters have gotten a chance to catch their breath and have found a bit of calm. It appears that many people have come to the same conclusion as I have over this week. That is:

WE DON'T KNOW MUCH.


The lid on the information on this decision is about as tight as the top on a new jar of pickles. So far, no one on either side of the issue is talking (that, in itself, surprises me, as usually, in my two decades as a reporter, there is always someone who wants to talk on any story.)
During the week that I decided not to comment, publicly, I did spend time contacting many of my former colleagues in the media, to see what they were hearing. Truth is, they didn't know anything either. That is why the editorial pieces by David Teel and Paul Woody (both of whom I admire, greatly) were just repetition of the info from the original press release, because, other than David coming up with Tony's contract, nothing else has shaken loose.

The only thing that I was able to find out, that wasn't already common knowledge at the time, was that the blowback/negative feedback was TREMENDOUSLY higher than the administration had anticipated. It wasn't just W&M alumni and fans, but also basketball reporters, coaches and other industry people, all shocked by the decision. From what I have gathered, they had anticipated some negative reaction, figuring as much as 60%-40% negative. What they got was much, MUCH higher.

What concerned me about how this board responded, wasn't the negative response, Tony is a beloved coach, but how 100 pages of content could be produced with no real information or facts to base those comments on, many of a very unflattering nature.


As far as I have been able to compile, here is what we know (and it isn't a long list):

Samantha Huge dismissed Tony Shaver as Head Coach of the Tribe on March 13th.
Tony's current contract had approximately 4 years remaining to run and could be renewed automatically.
The College owes Tony 1.7 million in Buyout dollars.
4 Top players have filed for entry into the NCAA Transfer Portal.
The players were made aware of the move before the announcement.
Jon Holmes has been retained as interim Coach.
Cam Brown has, to date, not requested to reopen his recruitment.

That is, pretty much, all the hard facts that we have.

Okay, so we also know that WHENEVER the Facts find the light of day, It will show that the reason that Tony was let go will NOT be that he is a WHITE MALE! Holy crap...


Everything else is pure speculation until someone makes an announcement or statement to provide us a little more enlightenment.



Now, what we DON'T KNOW is a completely different ballgame.

We don't know why, officially, Tony was let go.
We don't know why it was done when it was. Was there a reason for the quick hook at the conclusion of the season.
We don't know what would have caused an early employment Review.
We don't know why Tony wasn't allowed to coach the team he had built for 2020.
We don't know if players were truly at odds with their head coach.
We don't know if there was dissension on the team.
We don't know if some players were considering a transfer if nothing was done.
We don't know if any of the four star players will actually go through with their transfer.
We don't know if a new coach had been previously pinpointed.
We don't know if said coach might have gotten cold feet after seeing the huge negative response.
We don't know if the salary to pay the next coach is actually going to be $700,000.
We don't know if a handful of big donors had anything to do with the decision.
We don't know if this was all Huge's decision or if it involved other elements that have yet to be revealed.


I think you get the point here, it's tough to throw someone, anyone, under the bus, call people names, fall into character assassination, spread rumors or repeat speculation, with no facts, with hope that repeating it often enough will make it true, until we get more real information.


I would just ask that we continue to discuss info that comes out, including hearsay, but unless we have actual facts to back up the info, let's not be too quick to just bury someone, on this board or in the Administration. As I said, sometimes you find out that it is tough to undo some detrimental statements after they are out there and the truth later proves it wrong.


I apologize for this ongoing rant. This board is still my favorite place on the internet, one I visit several times a day. It is my go to place for discussing my favorite topic, W&M Sports. I just don't want to see it get torn apart by pure emotion taking over for common sense.


I will leave you with these words of wisdom I got from a mentor, relating to posting on any medium, texts, twitter, Instagram, email, boards or any other manner.

Always read your post 3 times before posting.

The 1st re-read, check your spelling. It does no good to call someone an Idiot, if you spell idiot incorrectly. It sort of lets people know who may be the true idiot.
The 2nd re-read, check your content. The worst thing about the internet/twitter is that there is no good way to show emotion, vocal inflection. It is a fact that your brain moves MUCH more rapidly than your fingers, so make sure you actually said what you thought you said, before posting. You may find that an extra adjective/adverb might more clearly say the thought you were trying to deliver.
The 3rd re-read, decide if it really needs to be posted. Writing out a post allows you to vent your feelings and have your say, but after you are done, ask yourself, do I really need to say this? Do I feel better after writing it out and don't need to castigate the original offender or is the world going to be a better place after reading this post. Sometimes just saying nothing is the best answer.



That's it. I'm done. Let's hope for a successful conclusion to this "recent unpleasantness" and that our beloved program won't be set back by this move (I don't know if I can keep myself healthy that long...). Hopefully, the new coach will be a fantastic add to our Tribe Family.

Go Tribe!

“The only thing that I was able to find out, that wasn't already common knowledge at the time, was that the blowback/negative feedback was TREMENDOUSLY higher than the administration had anticipated. It wasn't just W&M alumni and fans, but also basketball reporters, coaches and other industry people, all shocked by the decision. From what I have gathered, they had anticipated some negative reaction, figuring as much as 60%-40% negative. What they got was much, MUCH higher.”

Care to elaborate?

Regardless, that misjudgment is not comforting at all. It calls into question the judgment of those who are part of this decision. How well do they know W&M and our history? Given that backdrop, how well did they understand what Tony accomplished here?

Finally, if the answers to the above questions are unsatisfactory, how can a rational fact finder believe that the right choice will be made re: Tony’s successor?

Malpractice has been committed. The only question is the remedy.

A press conference with Huge and/or Rowe could have provided helpful context and may have been able to answer some of the unknowns you listed or perhaps this was intentionally avoided because of the likelihood it would exacerbate the situation.

Coming from the cheaps seats where I know nothing.

Billy, fact checking here: Did I misspell "idiot?"

If so, is this directed toward me?:

Always read your post 3 times before posting.

The 1st re-read, check your spelling. It does no good to call someone an Idiot, if you spell idiot incorrectly. It sort of lets people know who may be the true idiot.

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Simple solution to all of this is that Huge and Rowe tell us what's going on. We CAN handle the truth, good or bad.

Well said, BillyMac. However, I can't resist adding a couple thoughts.

First, we do in fact know, officially, why Tony was let go. The official explanation, available on the website, and which many of us also received by email, is as follows:

"[W]e have high expectations for our men's basketball program, including participating in the NCAA Tournament, and we will not shy away from setting the bar high. Now is the time to begin a new chapter in William & Mary basketball."

So, officially, it's "high expectations (including tournament), high bar, and time for a new chapter." And, at the moment, it seems that this is all the official explanation we can expect to receive.

While there have been a few guano-psychotic posts along the way, a good part of the discussion here has sprung from this official explanation -- whether it makes good sense (apparently I am not alone in thinking "no"), and, if not, what other factors might have been in the mix.

Second, a number of posters on this board have life experiences that are deserving of consideration, whether in athletics specifically or in the world at large. They may not be insiders in the W&M Athletic Department, but collectively they've seen a lot, and bring those experiences to bear in considering and commenting on this situation. (Absent anything else official, what else can they do?) They reach, as you might expect, varying conclusions -- which are interesting to chat about. When was the decision made? Why was it made? Who might make a good new coach? etc. I have enjoyed their insights (insofar as possible, given the underlying situation), and do not think they are without value or inappropriate in this sort of a message board environment.

Of course, proprieties of spelling and grammar should always be observed. This is a W&M board, after all.

Billymac- Well said and Thank you!

Time for a sabbatical and I will await enlightenment once more facts are known and will be content in the facts I do not know being of a private nature.

(03-24-2019 04:25 PM)Blow Gym rat Wrote:  Of course, proprieties of spelling and grammar should always be observed. This is a W&M board, after all.

Indeed!

...and I don't care how old your "grammar" is, I'm sure she's a fine person.

(03-24-2019 03:46 PM)nj alum Wrote:  Regardless, that misjudgment is not comforting at all.

Totally agree. The reaction has been many things, but surprising is not one of them. If the administration wasn't braced for it, shame on them.

(03-24-2019 05:00 PM)billymac Wrote:  

(03-24-2019 04:25 PM)Blow Gym rat Wrote:  Of course, proprieties of spelling and grammar should always be observed. This is a W&M board, after all.

Indeed!

...and I don't care how old your "grammar" is, I'm sure she's a fine person.

-Huge thought Tony Shaver underachieved as a coach. I’ve heard it from numerous friends who have spoken directly to Huge. It echoes what was said in the press release. Obviously there could be more.

-Fundraising was a major element in the AD search selection process. This debacle is not helping fundraising. Could that change? Yes. But many could care less who the new hire is, and fundamentally disagree with buying out a coach to the tune of $1.7 million. That will influence their levels of future donations, if any, thus presenting a significant challenge in an area that was supposed to be a main priority to get right in the hiring of an AD.

-Huge was a recent hire as well. Don’t forget that. She answers to the President and 17 BOV members along with the General Assembly. If you screw up financially, you won’t have a job long. Funding drives the ship.

I am recovering from back surgery and finally feel ready to weigh in on this. I intended to begin a new thread and title it One Tribe. One Family. But after seeing billymac’s latest post, it made sense not to start thread #28.

------------------

One Tribe. One Family. This is more than just a slogan to me…it is the way I live my Tribe life. I have worn the bracelet since Lt. Todd Weaver ’08 lost his life in Afghanistan and the SAAC set up a scholarship in his name. And, I am not taking it off now.

I understand the reactions of many fans right now. This was a surprise to almost everyone on the outside, and quite a few on the inside. As Tribe Club chair, I had slight advance knowledge of this. But, we can’t forget that there have been rumblings and rumors about whether Coach Shaver was on the hot seat previous to March 13. So while it is a shock, it wasn’t out of the blue.

Long time readers of this forum will know my opinion of Coach Shaver. What he did for W&M Basketball is worthy of laud and adoration. He resurrected our basketball program and made us relevant again. He is a heckuva nice guy, and he showed loyalty to W&M when others may have looked for greener pastures. He loves this school. I will also say, however, that he has been less enthused than he was five years ago for Mr. Ribe and me to push the program to new heights. Now this could be a reflection on me, not Tony. All I know is that Mr. Ribe and I have not been in a position to impact the basketball program as much lately as we were at first. Many of us wanted to form a basketball booster club. I finally gave up on that idea when it became clear that I wanted it more than the coaching staff did.

In a previous post, Mr. Ribe made reference to what we observed during the season from our seats. He was not speaking of Tony’s actions toward players during the games. He was speaking to many of the players’ disregard for their coaches. No good will come from rehashing it here, but maybe there is something to the rumors of team discord and player/coach chemistry--maybe enough to lead several players to consider leaving, even before March 13.

Moving forward, I don’t have much inside knowledge at this point. What I do know has mostly been stated here on this board. (There is no lump sum buyout. Tony will receive his base salary on a normal pay schedule. There is some dispute between his agent and Tribe Athletics regarding “base salary.”) I am glad to try to get answers for you on anything that I can. But, as she did with the football hire, Samantha is holding this very close to the vest. I do not know anything of the rumored $700k coaching salary.

My thoughts at this point:

Samantha had been evaluating the basketball program for two years and made a decision based on that evaluation. I am certain that Coach Shaver was not let go because we lost to Delaware on March 10.

There is no coach-in-waiting and Samantha is committed to making the right choice, much as she was in football.

There has been a change in attitude in Tribe Athletics. Mediocrity is no longer okay, and the Woody Allen rule no longer applies. If you’re a coach, you sure as hell better not say that winning isn’t important, or even conjecture that winning can’t happen. Instead, you better have a plan on how you can win.

Samantha Huge is a steward of William & Mary Athletics, and she is making decisions based on what she thinks is best for Tribe Athletics. We can agree or disagree with those decisions, but the conspiracy theories of her only being concerned with furthering her name just don’t make sense. I don’t see how firing Tony at this point plays into a sinister plan to set her up for a P5 job. She is walking a very high wire, a wire that could snap at any moment. If that happens, she isn’t set up to go anywhere. The safe move would have been to keep Tony, play out next year, and see where we are after that. Instead, she made a move that she felt was in the best interest of our student-athletes, the basketball program, and the College of William & Mary.

Before Samantha was hired, we were at a point of complacency in the entire athletic department. You don’t have to look much further than Tony’s contract to see that: an automatic extension for a better than .500 conference record. If our president and BOV had wanted to continue in that same vein of comfort and complacency, we would have hired TD-2, but we did not. We hired Samantha Huge, and I am willing to give her a chance to do her job.

Now, those of you who are long-time members of this forum also know that I had my differences with Terry Driscoll (just as I have had some differences with Samantha). There were times when I was at complete odds with Terry and the decisions he made. At times, we even had philosophical differences on the potential of Tribe Athletics. But, I continued to support Tribe Athletics, and I never once questioned Terry’s motives or his allegiance to the College.

As One Tribe. One Family, we have a storm to weather, and I have no idea what the other side looks like. I just know that we must weather it together, and that we must remain Tribe Strong.

Well said. We just have to see what occurs.

Hello Billy,

As usual, a well thought post.

Since I was the culprit of one comment here regarding Tony, one that you specifically site and imply was way out of bounds, I speculated that Tony was possibly a victim of a Diversity agenda at W&M. It's how I felt last week and I still think it was a POSSIBLE factor today. You can phrase that multiple ways but it all means the same thing.

Its no secret our current management prioritizes a Diversity agenda, their resumes tout it, so I don't understand why it appears to be out of bounds to mention it. I surfaced it as a motive and I don't think I'm a worse person for doing so. I'm not a fan of it, I don't believe in judging people (hiring/firing, promoting/demoting, etc) on born attributes.

I believe in civility but also believe in being frank. My intention was to be both. I also could be wrong, which I also originally mentioned. Unfortunately, we were all left to speculate on the why this happened.

From a timing perspective, no need to have made the decision to fire Tony this year. Very little upside to this call. And for Huge to assess that March 2019 was the time to make the decision, well, that calls into question her judgement.

No matter how this is spun, the impact of this decision will resonate for quite a while, regardless of whether we win or don't win in the near future. Wins have never defined the "why" you're a fan of W&M Basketball or our other athletic teams.

Two very well thought out, reasoned posts. I really appreciate it.

Like others, one of the things that jumped out at me most was the surprise at the negative reaction to the firing. My concern with that is that it shows a disconnect between the AD and the fan base, basketball experts, and the community at large.

I like Mrs. Got Ribe’s One Tribe, One Family theme. My concern is, this fact above is a key sign to me that the AD, while not malicious, may not yet be a true member of our Tribe and Family.

Such a major disconnect is a big red flag for me. As the AD, a key role is alumni relations and fundraising. This one single item is one that makes me concerned that she may not a have a handle on these critical items at all. That worries me, a lot. This is again highlighted by the lack of communication and comments of (paraphrasing) “ I’ve told supporters everything they need to know”. Looking past differences in opinion on what it will take on the court, this is a problem much bigger than Xs, Os, and recruiting.

I am 100% willing to wait and see what happens. But I want to see improvement in things other than just results on the court. I want to see a better relationship from the AD and staff than we have had the last two years. I’ve brought up other issues in here that I won’t bore people with now and there are others I won’t pile on with. But this theme of a lack of connection and understanding of our fan base and alumni is one that is consistent from my cheap seats and needs to shift.

All of this aside, I will still continue to buy season tickets, I will continue to root for the Tribe, and I will continue to donate to W&M. But what I will also be more willing to voice my concerns with the appropriate parties so that the concerns are heard and hopefully addressed.

Edit: sorry I may have veered off a bit, but all of these events have me really trying to understand what about this really has me so angry/frustrated and I finally put the pieces together.


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Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness"

Thanks to Billy for keeping it polite and SOUTHERN!

Returning Win Shares for all conference teams:

Northeastern: 14.7 (8 players)
Charleston: 14.5 (10 players)
W&M: 13.1 (12 players)
Towson: 11.5 (11 players)
JMU: 11.1 (11 players)
Drexel: 10.3 (13 players)
Hofstra: 10.3 (7 players)
Delaware: 8.7 (8 players)
UNCW: 7.6 (9 players)
Elon: 2.7 (10 players)

I know the conventional wisdom here is that 2020 would definitely be the year, but they don't have the most returning talent. Yes, they have a transfer who will join...but so do other teams. Yes, they have young players...but so do other teams, and some of those teams have more minutes opening up. Northeastern and Charleston were both better this year and they aren't staring at empty cupboards. Towson, Drexel and JMU are right there. I'm not sure how good of a chance they would have had last year, and I'm not sure why I should believe the season won't end in a hail of made 3s and blown defensive rotations like every other tournament loss.

(03-24-2019 03:32 PM)billymac Wrote:  The only thing that I was able to find out, that wasn't already common knowledge at the time, was that the blowback/negative feedback was TREMENDOUSLY higher than the administration had anticipated. It wasn't just W&M alumni and fans, but also basketball reporters, coaches and other industry people, all shocked by the decision. From what I have gathered, they had anticipated some negative reaction, figuring as much as 60%-40% negative. What they got was much, MUCH higher.

We suspected this was more likely the case than that the admin had decided to make a knowingly extremely unpopular decision. And it's tremendously concerning.

Making the right decisions as an AD is an extremely difficult job. You have to weigh dozens of factors and figure out how to allocate the resources that you have together in ways that maximize the chances of accomplishing program goals. That requires many different combinations of practical effects and optics. It is more than a full-time job requiring an extensive knowledge base, even at a relatively rinky-dink level like ours.

But this, just generally taking the temperature of the program, its players and especially its coach...that's easy. There are a few focused national reporters, our local guys, some vocal donors, and a few Internet cesspools like this one that will comment, but when it's your 9-5, it's really not a long list. It's the kind of thing you might figure out in a few weeks on the job. To paraphrase Dave Chapelle, if you can't figure that one out, then just give up, because life gets way harder than that.

I'm reminded of the story of Van Halen's concert contract specifying in the middle of a long block of text that they would have the unilateral right to cancel a show if there was a single brown M&M in the bowl of snacks backstage. Everyone thought it was just another case of petulant rock stars who wanted their every whim catered, but there was a better reason: The contract contained highly technical engineering specifications for rigging and electrical equipment. The presence of brown M&Ms was an easy way for the band to tell that a promoter probably hadn't read the contract and that they should double-check the whole setup, because they had probably skipped other things that would've compromised the quality and safety of the show.

Having a general idea of how the fan base and media feels about the coach strikes me as the brown M&Ms of our program. It's not that it's consequential by itself not to know something like that--I'd be just as peeved about this decision no matter how they came to it--but it makes me wonder what other basic things the program is dropping the ball on if it's caught off-guard by something this simple.

(03-24-2019 05:57 PM)Mrs. Got Ribe Wrote:  I am recovering from back surgery and finally feel ready to weigh in on this. I intended to begin a new thread and title it One Tribe. One Family. But after seeing billymac’s latest post, it made sense not to start thread #28.

------------------

One Tribe. One Family. This is more than just a slogan to me…it is the way I live my Tribe life. I have worn the bracelet since Lt. Todd Weaver ’08 lost his life in Afghanistan and the SAAC set up a scholarship in his name. And, I am not taking it off now.

I understand the reactions of many fans right now. This was a surprise to almost everyone on the outside, and quite a few on the inside. As Tribe Club chair, I had slight advance knowledge of this. But, we can’t forget that there have been rumblings and rumors about whether Coach Shaver was on the hot seat previous to March 13. So while it is a shock, it wasn’t out of the blue.

Long time readers of this forum will know my opinion of Coach Shaver. What he did for W&M Basketball is worthy of laud and adoration. He resurrected our basketball program and made us relevant again. He is a heckuva nice guy, and he showed loyalty to W&M when others may have looked for greener pastures. He loves this school. I will also say, however, that he has been less enthused than he was five years ago for Mr. Ribe and me to push the program to new heights. Now this could be a reflection on me, not Tony. All I know is that Mr. Ribe and I have not been in a position to impact the basketball program as much lately as we were at first. Many of us wanted to form a basketball booster club. I finally gave up on that idea when it became clear that I wanted it more than the coaching staff did.

In a previous post, Mr. Ribe made reference to what we observed during the season from our seats. He was not speaking of Tony’s actions toward players during the games. He was speaking to many of the players’ disregard for their coaches. No good will come from rehashing it here, but maybe there is something to the rumors of team discord and player/coach chemistry--maybe enough to lead several players to consider leaving, even before March 13.

Moving forward, I don’t have much inside knowledge at this point. What I do know has mostly been stated here on this board. (There is no lump sum buyout. Tony will receive his base salary on a normal pay schedule. There is some dispute between his agent and Tribe Athletics regarding “base salary.”) I am glad to try to get answers for you on anything that I can. But, as she did with the football hire, Samantha is holding this very close to the vest. I do not know anything of the rumored $700k coaching salary.

My thoughts at this point:

Samantha had been evaluating the basketball program for two years and made a decision based on that evaluation. I am certain that Coach Shaver was not let go because we lost to Delaware on March 10.

There is no coach-in-waiting and Samantha is committed to making the right choice, much as she was in football.

There has been a change in attitude in Tribe Athletics. Mediocrity is no longer okay, and the Woody Allen rule no longer applies. If you’re a coach, you sure as hell better not say that winning isn’t important, or even conjecture that winning can’t happen. Instead, you better have a plan on how you can win.

Samantha Huge is a steward of William & Mary Athletics, and she is making decisions based on what she thinks is best for Tribe Athletics. We can agree or disagree with those decisions, but the conspiracy theories of her only being concerned with furthering her name just don’t make sense. I don’t see how firing Tony at this point plays into a sinister plan to set her up for a P5 job. She is walking a very high wire, a wire that could snap at any moment. If that happens, she isn’t set up to go anywhere. The safe move would have been to keep Tony, play out next year, and see where we are after that. Instead, she made a move that she felt was in the best interest of our student-athletes, the basketball program, and the College of William & Mary.

Before Samantha was hired, we were at a point of complacency in the entire athletic department. You don’t have to look much further than Tony’s contract to see that: an automatic extension for a better than .500 conference record. If our president and BOV had wanted to continue in that same vein of comfort and complacency, we would have hired TD-2, but we did not. We hired Samantha Huge, and I am willing to give her a chance to do her job.

Now, those of you who are long-time members of this forum also know that I had my differences with Terry Driscoll (just as I have had some differences with Samantha). There were times when I was at complete odds with Terry and the decisions he made. At times, we even had philosophical differences on the potential of Tribe Athletics. But, I continued to support Tribe Athletics, and I never once questioned Terry’s motives or his allegiance to the College.

As One Tribe. One Family, we have a storm to weather, and I have no idea what the other side looks like. I just know that we must weather it together, and that we must remain Tribe Strong.

A very disheartening message from someone I have come to respect on these boards.

So, in decreasing order of importance:

1) Prayers and best wishes for a speedy recovery, Ms. Got Ribe.

2) Thank you to others here unbeknownst to me for all of your efforts on behalf of Tribe athletics.

3) Best wishes to everyone else, known and unknown.

4) I'm done. It's been a fun (and admittedly at times frustrating) 56 years. Some memories, I will cherish always. Goodbye, Tribe.

(03-24-2019 07:57 PM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  Having a general idea of how the fan base and media feels about the coach strikes me as the brown M&Ms of our program. It's not that it's consequential by itself not to know something like that--I'd be just as peeved about this decision no matter how they came to it--but it makes me wonder what other basic things the program is dropping the ball on if it's caught off-guard by something this simple.

Well put. You hit on what I was trying to exactly.




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