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Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
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Tank55 Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
(03-30-2019 01:50 AM)ttgwm02 Wrote:  Duke - which once won national titles with four year players while competitors lost players early - has become king of the “one and done”. And in our own state, programs with far more resources and far more history - Richmond and George Mason - are struggling to compete.

I can't even wrap my head around looking at Duke, Richmond, or George Mason and thinking that we were in a better place than they are.
03-30-2019 08:57 AM
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
(03-30-2019 08:57 AM)Tank55 Wrote:  
(03-30-2019 01:50 AM)ttgwm02 Wrote:  Duke - which once won national titles with four year players while competitors lost players early - has become king of the “one and done”. And in our own state, programs with far more resources and far more history - Richmond and George Mason - are struggling to compete.

I can't even wrap my head around looking at Duke, Richmond, or George Mason and thinking that we were in a better place than they are.

The point - which you obviously missed - is that college basketball is a dirty cutthroat business and we were holding our own without having to hold our nose.

Duke has abandoned all pretense of integrity, and two programs in our own state with better history and resources than we could hope for are struggling to win. Mason was lucky to beat us this year and Richmond was at the bottom of the A-10.
03-30-2019 09:31 AM
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Tank55 Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
Sure, of course. We had our integrity. We had our .555 conference winning percentage. You're not wrong. I would just encourage you to take a broader view of things.

Has Richmond and GMU's membership in a healthier conference outweighed the costs of a tougher schedule? (Would you want to swap places with them? Do you think they would want to swap places with us?)

Has Duke's national ranking suffered as a result of embracing one-and-done players? Or has the visibility the basketball team continues to deliver driven applications and kept the admission rate super low? (Duke is currently #8 in the US News; William & Mary #38. Do you think a Duke mindset would push W&M up or down? Do you think a W&M mindset would push Duke up or down?)
03-30-2019 05:56 PM
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Swemster Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
(03-30-2019 09:31 AM)ttgwm02 Wrote:  
(03-30-2019 08:57 AM)Tank55 Wrote:  
(03-30-2019 01:50 AM)ttgwm02 Wrote:  Duke - which once won national titles with four year players while competitors lost players early - has become king of the “one and done”. And in our own state, programs with far more resources and far more history - Richmond and George Mason - are struggling to compete.

I can't even wrap my head around looking at Duke, Richmond, or George Mason and thinking that we were in a better place than they are.

The point - which you obviously missed - is that college basketball is a dirty cutthroat business and we were holding our own without having to hold our nose.

Duke has abandoned all pretense of integrity, and two programs in our own state with better history and resources than we could hope for are struggling to win. Mason was lucky to beat us this year and Richmond was at the bottom of the A-10.

Not to nitpick or derail thread topic, but do you have an example for this? I don't know that recruiting the top talent possible is a sign of lacking integrity.
(This post was last modified: 03-30-2019 09:15 PM by Swemster.)
03-30-2019 09:13 PM
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nogretheogre Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
(03-30-2019 05:56 PM)Tank55 Wrote:  Sure, of course. We had our integrity. We had our .555 conference winning percentage. You're not wrong. I would just encourage you to take a broader view of things.

Has Richmond and GMU's membership in a healthier conference outweighed the costs of a tougher schedule? (Would you want to swap places with them? Do you think they would want to swap places with us?)

Has Duke's national ranking suffered as a result of embracing one-and-done players? Or has the visibility the basketball team continues to deliver driven applications and kept the admission rate super low? (Duke is currently #8 in the US News; William & Mary #38. Do you think a Duke mindset would push W&M up or down? Do you think a W&M mindset would push Duke up or down?)

This.

All this talk about doing it the "William & Mary Way" or "the right way" is nonsensical. Is this "way" simply accepting upper mediocrity as long as we graduate our players in a clean program? Why shouldnt we strive for more success than that? Why shouldnt we pursue more visibility? I seriously doubt that there is no middle ground between our prior methods of student athlete academic success/responsibility and programs that are indeed considered successful. It is not the "Dance or else," but I think we should expect to periodically make the tournament. I think the athletes would be in agreement with that mindset. What are they playing for otherwise? A free high-end education is available at many other schools. What is their goal? My initial thought on the firing was also negative, but as Ive let it simmer, I am much more in the 50-50 world. Huge believed that the current staff hit the ceiling. I think that next year was very promising, but certainly not a given. She is hoping that a change would put us over the top. Judging based on not the past, but the more recent "success" alone could still justify this move. She has higher expectations than that. Obviously that is a gamble, but, no risk, no reward. I doubt that she would show 16 years of patience with the next coach. She was compelled to pull the trigger.
03-31-2019 12:33 PM
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Tribe32 Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
Huge will be gone from William and Mary before she has a chance to fire the next coach.
03-31-2019 04:03 PM
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Old tribe Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
(03-31-2019 12:33 PM)nogretheogre Wrote:  
(03-30-2019 05:56 PM)Tank55 Wrote:  Sure, of course. We had our integrity. We had our .555 conference winning percentage. You're not wrong. I would just encourage you to take a broader view of things.

Has Richmond and GMU's membership in a healthier conference outweighed the costs of a tougher schedule? (Would you want to swap places with them? Do you think they would want to swap places with us?)

Has Duke's national ranking suffered as a result of embracing one-and-done players? Or has the visibility the basketball team continues to deliver driven applications and kept the admission rate super low? (Duke is currently #8 in the US News; William & Mary #38. Do you think a Duke mindset would push W&M up or down? Do you think a W&M mindset would push Duke up or down?)

This.

All this talk about doing it the "William & Mary Way" or "the right way" is nonsensical. Is this "way" simply accepting upper mediocrity as long as we graduate our players in a clean program? Why shouldnt we strive for more success than that? Why shouldnt we pursue more visibility? I seriously doubt that there is no middle ground between our prior methods of student athlete academic success/responsibility and programs that are indeed considered successful. It is not the "Dance or else," but I think we should expect to periodically make the tournament. I think the athletes would be in agreement with that mindset. What are they playing for otherwise? A free high-end education is available at many other schools. What is their goal? My initial thought on the firing was also negative, but as Ive let it simmer, I am much more in the 50-50 world. Huge believed that the current staff hit the ceiling. I think that next year was very promising, but certainly not a given. She is hoping that a change would put us over the top. Judging based on not the past, but the more recent "success" alone could still justify this move. She has higher expectations than that. Obviously that is a gamble, but, no risk, no reward. I doubt that she would show 16 years of patience with the next coach. She was compelled to pull the trigger.

Completely agree. The “William & Mary way” has resulted in us being one of the 4 original D1 teams to never make the tournament. It’s embarrasing, not something to be proud of. No one outside of this board would have the slightest clue what is meant by the”William & Mary” way. You don’t have to abandon integrity to be successful. You just need to have high expectations and provide adequate financial support. I don’t think either of those things have been in place for many, many years, if ever. But it appears that is changing.
03-31-2019 08:41 PM
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GameOfTribes Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
If the next coach in their first 5 years were to finish 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 4th with 2 caa championship appearances and an nit birth, would you fire them?

Let's add that that coach also has 2 nba draft picks over that time period. And a dozen more G league and professional players. Would you fire them?

If all of the above is true but instead of a caa championship appearance, it is a caa championship victory, do you fire them?



The last 5 years is what Shaver should be judged and what his record should be judged on. Anything earlier cannot be compared to a new coach because Shaver inherited what is equivalent to East NorthWest Cal Tech University College and was in basically an entirely different conference. And the last 5 years is what would be the minimum for the next 5 years. No one has been drafted from this conference in the last decade except for Thornton and potentially Knight. If you answered yes, yes, no then you are basing your decision off of a rimmed out basketball. If a new coach came in and had 2 caa championship appearances in 5 years and had a buzzer beater to go to the NCAA tournament instead of a rimmed out shot, would that make the firing of Shaver a good decision?
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2019 09:47 PM by GameOfTribes.)
03-31-2019 09:46 PM
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Tank55 Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
I think it will certainly be fair to judge the new coach on his record over a full recruiting cycle. I do think other factors, like a shared vision for the program and buy-in on the strategies to get there (ie, out of conference scheduling), contributed to this decision, and I would expect those to be taken into account as well.
04-01-2019 05:54 AM
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nogretheogre Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
(03-31-2019 09:46 PM)GameOfTribes Wrote:  If the next coach in their first 5 years were to finish 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 4th with 2 caa championship appearances and an nit birth, would you fire them?

Let's add that that coach also has 2 nba draft picks over that time period. And a dozen more G league and professional players. Would you fire them?

With all of these great players, why havent we won it all in a middling one-bid league that has had minimal success in the tourney? Like I said, at some point you have to guess that this is your ceiling and must pull the trigger on a change.
04-01-2019 10:58 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
I'm not sure how many people have to say this for it to sink in. Follow closely:

It's NOT that Shaver was fired. It's that he was fired now...a year too early, if at all. Huge fired him just before we would've been top 2 in the preseason poll with all starters, a 7 footer, and a stud rookie on the roster. We have gone from CAAT contenders to a dumster fire based on an ill-informed, emotional, and disastrous decision.

Had we failed to make the Dance next season, most of us would've been fine with Tony's dismissal.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
04-01-2019 11:26 AM
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Tribe32 Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
Go ask Wilmington about how change worked out when Keats left. How about Brady and JMU. Even look at the run Drexel had with Bruiser and what they have now. Change is disruptive. Having a stable program that is self sustaining is really, really hard.

Let's go back and ask how many coaches have had career winning records with the Tribe in the last 50 years. The answer is exactly 1.
04-01-2019 11:47 AM
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Zorch Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
(04-01-2019 05:54 AM)Tank55 Wrote:  I think it will certainly be fair to judge the new coach on his record over a full recruiting cycle. I do think other factors, like a shared vision for the program and buy-in on the strategies to get there (ie, out of conference scheduling), contributed to this decision, and I would expect those to be taken into account as well.

The bolded, underlined sentence above says it all. It also confirms what I and others have said all along: Huge had to fire Tony now because next year's team was loaded and if he had won next year then Huge would have never been able to get rid of Tony. They obviously did not agree on fundamental precepts and Huge took advantage of the blown first round game to make her move. I do think that it was sleazy to justify the firing based on Tony's total won-loss record when everyone can see that the last six years were well above CAA average (GameOfTribes' post above lays things out very clearly).

I thought all along that she already had someone else lined up (probably JT3) but it looks now like that fell through. Now it is apparent that she is waiting for a coach still playing which means that it probably will be Williford. There is no other possible explanation (except incompetence) for why we would not have already named a coach by now.
04-01-2019 11:59 AM
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Tribfan Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
Why would a top asst at a top basketball program accept the HC job at W&M. It’s a huge career risk/suicide to downgrade to a one bid conference, and especially at a historically bad program that will require a complete rebuild. We need little known candidates, eg DIII, flying under the radar who won’t damage their brand by coming here. Unfortunately our AD is incapable of finding such candidates, and even if she could her misplaced ego may not let her.
04-01-2019 12:36 PM
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LeadBolt Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
(04-01-2019 12:36 PM)Tribfan Wrote:  Why would a top asst at a top basketball program accept the HC job at W&M. It’s a huge career risk/suicide to downgrade to a one bid conference, and especially at a historically bad program that will require a complete rebuild. We need little known candidates, eg DIII, flying under the radar who won’t damage their brand by coming here. Unfortunately our AD is incapable of finding such candidates, and even if she could her misplaced ego may not let her.

I rather think that the reverse may be true. W&M is known as a basketball desert.

Coming here as your first HC gig and not meeting expectations would be shrugged off by many outside the program because of the handicaps in financial support, facilities, lack of a winning tradition, implosion of the current roster, academic standards, etc. No harm, no foul.

Now, if you succeed despite the perceived limitations you have probably punched your ticket to a high major. If the new coach can retain and energize the anticipated roster for next year and then add a good class or two leading to multi-year success here, after a run as a valued assistant at a highly rated high major would be a ticket to a top job.

Still hoping for a coach with head coaching experience...
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2019 01:11 PM by LeadBolt.)
04-01-2019 01:08 PM
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mrjoolius Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
(04-01-2019 12:36 PM)Tribfan Wrote:  Why would a top asst at a top basketball program accept the HC job at W&M.

Because he wants to be a D1 head coach. Because he's from and knows the state. Because he knows how to recruit academic kids. Because its probably a pay raise.

Quote:It’s a huge career risk/suicide to downgrade to a one bid conference, and especially at a historically bad program that will require a complete rebuild.
I don't think he, or many coaches, view the CAA as a downgrade. If anything, it has been a stepping stone for career advancement. I believe whoever the new coach is feels confident that they can lure back the kids sticking their toes in the transfer portal. And if not, they will feel confident in bringing in the talent they want.

Quote:We need little known candidates, eg DIII, flying under the radar who won’t damage their brand by coming here.
I'm not against promoting a talented D3 coach, but I don't think we are focused on that level anymore.

Quote:Unfortunately our AD is incapable of finding such candidates, and even if she could her misplaced ego may not let her.
Let go of your hate. You can dislike her decision to move on from Shaver, but you have no idea on her true motivations, industry connections, or ability to negotiate a new hire.
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2019 01:18 PM by mrjoolius.)
04-01-2019 01:16 PM
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B_Hawk06 Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
(04-01-2019 11:47 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Go ask Wilmington about how change worked out when Keats left. How about Brady and JMU. Even look at the run Drexel had with Bruiser and what they have now. Change is disruptive. Having a stable program that is self sustaining is really, really hard.

Let's go back and ask how many coaches have had career winning records with the Tribe in the last 50 years. The answer is exactly 1.

What you all are experiencing now is a near exact replica of our post 2006 season experience. We had a dud for a chancellor who was intent on leveling successful athletics and intent on focusing on making UNCW a larger liberal arts player. It seemed like she wanted to make UNCW the east coast UCAL-Berkeley. Her and her interim AD Ran off a highly successful basketball coach (now coaching in the ACC after showing similar success at Wright St). Enter several years of garbage basketball, hiring of an AD strikingly similar to Huge in experience and goals... and then we maintained a decade of dumpster fire basketball (spanning 2 unsuccessful coaches) until we replaced our Chancellor and AD with folks that valued athletics and athletic success. New AD hired Keatts and then Keatts was quickly successful and hired away from UNCW by an ACC with much deeper pockets.

Shockingly, our AD moved in an entirely different direction of coaches in terms of style of play and coaching philosophy and outside of stellar recruiting -- has been a replay of UNCW dumpster fire basketball, thus our fans are in panic mode again.

Luckily, in the 2nd year of our current coach, he landed in last place in the conference so technically there's only one direction to go! Up up up!!!

All that to say, we are watching your current situation closely and grimacing as it's so familiar to us.
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2019 01:19 PM by B_Hawk06.)
04-01-2019 01:19 PM
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RamDawg Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
(04-01-2019 11:26 AM)Tribal Wrote:  It's NOT that Shaver was fired. It's that he was fired now...a year too early, if at all. Huge fired him just before we would've been top 2 in the preseason poll with all starters, a 7 footer, and a stud rookie on the roster. We have gone from CAAT contenders to a dumster fire based on an ill-informed, emotional, and disastrous decision.

Had we failed to make the Dance next season, most of us would've been fine with Tony's dismissal.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

If Shaver had not been fired, how confident are we to think that everyone would have chosen to return?
04-01-2019 01:44 PM
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Tribe32 Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
Nobody can answer your question, RamDawg, except for the players.
04-01-2019 01:51 PM
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Tribeheart Offline
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RE: Thoughts on the "Recent Unpleasantness" or Huge/Shaver Thread #27
Williford was born and raised in Richmond, knows VA HS and AAU ball very, very well, is accustomed to a high academic environment, and has a young family, for which Williamsburg checks a lot of boxes.
04-01-2019 02:43 PM
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