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William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
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tribeintexas Online
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Post: #21
RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
(03-20-2019 03:32 PM)Blow Gym rat Wrote:  
(03-20-2019 12:24 PM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  I'm also mostly unclear on how the firing was handled poorly. Is it just the "should have had one more year" thing? Serious question.

For what it's worth ...

I think the issue is that it was (IMO) a bad, unjustified decision, based on everything I know about Shaver and the W&M men's basketball program, both historically and today. Had next year's much-anticipated team under-performed, perhaps it would have been a justifiable decision next year, but it was a bad, unjustified decision at the time it was made. Not to mention that the loyalty to W&M that Tony has always shown was clearly not reciprocated (again, for no known justifiable reason, IMO -- and yes, I know "it's a business, we set the bar high, etc. etc." -- Ms. Huge's version of "the W&M way" apparently doesn't value that, but I do).

Apart from that, I don't think it was "handled poorly" in terms of the nuts and bolts. We don't know what happened behind the scenes, but from what is publicly known, (a) I like that it was done quickly after the team's season ended -- gives Tony and his assistants max opportunity to look for other positions, and gives W&M max opportunity to snap up a good potential successor before someone else does; (b) I like that an announcement was sent to even low-level supporters such as myself, rather than seeing it on TV; (c ) statistical shenanigans aside, I like that the announcement included praise of Tony, even if it was probably insincere; (d) I like keeping Coach Holmes on as interim; etc. So in terms of the execution, it certainly could have been worse.

The buyout is what it is -- I have no idea where the cash is coming from (for that or the new coach), but presumably it's coming from someplace.

Couldn't agree with you more.
03-20-2019 03:39 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #22
William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
So, we are ro believe that Tony suddenly became a jerk to his player? Dixon and Stratton sure didn't see it that way. Wonder what made Tony snap this year? Mystery

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03-20-2019 03:41 PM
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Tribe2011 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
(03-20-2019 03:32 PM)Blow Gym rat Wrote:  
(03-20-2019 12:24 PM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  I'm also mostly unclear on how the firing was handled poorly. Is it just the "should have had one more year" thing? Serious question.

For what it's worth ...

I think the issue is that it was (IMO) a bad, unjustified decision, based on everything I know about Shaver and the W&M men's basketball program, both historically and today. Had next year's much-anticipated team under-performed, perhaps it would have been a justifiable decision next year, but it was a bad, unjustified decision at the time it was made. Not to mention that the loyalty to W&M that Tony has always shown was clearly not reciprocated (again, for no known justifiable reason, IMO -- and yes, I know "it's a business, we set the bar high, etc. etc." -- Ms. Huge's version of "the W&M way" apparently doesn't value that, but I do).

Apart from that, I don't think it was "handled poorly" in terms of the nuts and bolts. We don't know what happened behind the scenes, but from what is publicly known, (a) I like that it was done quickly after the team's season ended -- gives Tony and his assistants max opportunity to look for other positions, and gives W&M max opportunity to snap up a good potential successor before someone else does; (b) I like that an announcement was sent to even low-level supporters such as myself, rather than seeing it on TV; (c ) statistical shenanigans aside, I like that the announcement included praise of Tony, even if it was probably insincere; (d) I like keeping Coach Holmes on as interim; etc. So in terms of the execution, it certainly could have been worse.

The buyout is what it is -- I have no idea where the cash is coming from (for that or the new coach), but presumably it's coming from someplace.

This sums it up pretty well to me. One thing I disagree with though – WM was plenty loyal to Shaver, just like he was loyal to WM. Shaver I’m sure could have left for more money and a bigger job, but didn’t. However at the same time – he was 55-93 five seasons into his tenure. He later had a three year stretch in which he went 29-65, winning only 30% of his games. We stuck with him despite these results. In my opinion, that was absolutely the right move, and the later results bear that out. But it would have been reasonable to move on at some point in those periods and we didn’t. That’s loyalty also.

I don’t agree with this decision overall, and would have been in support of giving Shaver at least another year, but I don’t see how WM has done wrong by Shaver given the current facts that have come out. He’s been here 15 years, one of the longer tenures in college basketball, and we didn’t achieve our ultimate goal in that span. That’s plenty of loyalty shown to him. This is a taxpayer-funded job paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year at an academic institution; no one “deserves” that for life.

I too am sad that Shaver is gone and that it won’t be him taking us to the tournament. But while I disagreed with this decision, I don’t think it’s indefensible (or a nefarious “diversity” plot). There’s an enormous amount of risk, but IF it is accompanied by increased investment in the program that actually lets us compete on a fair playing field, there’s reason to be optimistic depending on who the next hire is. We’ve got a solid foundation in place, and now must grow it.

And there could be value in trying a different approach. After all, the “W&M way” has failed in the goal of reaching the tournament each and every year for 100 years. I’ll certainly be interested to see what a different strategy yields.
03-20-2019 04:08 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #24
RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
Tribe 2011-

"we didn’t achieve our ultimate goal in that span".

That's the nub of your piece, correct?

I presume you're referring to the Dance.

W&M's Contract with Tony says otherwise. The big financial incentive in Tony's contract was the conference won-lost record, not the Dance. Sanity ruled in the Contract.

The ultimate goal should be exactly what Tony brought to the program. It's already been achieved. You now risk throwing it away. You're making a big assumption that what Tony did is "the floor" when, in fact, it may be "the ceiling". Don't fall off reaching for that Dance ticket, cause you'll find yourself back on the real floor, looking up at all that Tony achieved, and wishing to be at that level again.

Some posters on here are acting like classic fans of a woe-begone program that attains the heights, and instead of appreciating where they are, they want to go higher, only to find themselves right back in woe-begone territory.
03-20-2019 04:27 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #25
William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
It's a taxpayer funded job? Interesting, because I'm under the impression that everything associated with W&M Athletics is fully covered by donors.

Shaver needed better results. True.

Point for many of us is he should've had next season to achieve that goal. No fair surprising a dedicated coach after a season with no senior starters and a bunch of freshmen. Had he been fired 360 days from now after missing the NCAAT, I'd be okay.

Here's what I think is going to happen: Huge is going to hire an established coach coming off a disappointing tenure with his last team. She's going to sign him $700k+/yr for three years then dump all kinds of mony into the program because the very last thing she wants is for her plan to fail. Her career depends on this risk. She will celebrate a successful MBB '19-'20 season like her changes led to that success. She will take to social media and "like" every win and ignore every loss. She will participate in interviews whilst we're on hot streaks and disappear during down times.

I also think she will cut a men's program or two. It will not at all suprise me to see men's soccer go dinosaur within three years. Maybe baseball.

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03-20-2019 04:31 PM
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tribeintexas Online
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Post: #26
RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
(03-20-2019 04:31 PM)Tribal Wrote:  It's a taxpayer funded job? Interesting, because I'm under the impression that everything associated with W&M Athletics is fully covered by donors.

Shaver needed better results. True.

Point for many of us is he should've had next season to achieve that goal. No fair surprising a dedicated coach after a season with no senior starters and a bunch of freshmen. Had he been fired 360 days from now after missing the NCAAT, I'd be okay.

Here's what I think is going to happen: Huge is going to hire an established coach coming off a disappointing tenure with his last team. She's going to sign him $700k+/yr for three years then dump all kinds of mony into the program because the very last thing she wants is for her plan to fail. Her career depends on this risk. She will celebrate a successful MBB '19-'20 season like her changes led to that success. She will take to social media and "like" every win and ignore every loss. She will participate in interviews whilst we're on hot streaks and disappear during down times.

I also think she will cut a men's program or two. It will not at all suprise me to see men's soccer go dinosaur within three years. Maybe baseball.

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Hey, don't jinx our 14-4 baseball team.
03-20-2019 04:34 PM
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Post: #27
RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
(03-20-2019 04:31 PM)Tribal Wrote:  I also think she will cut a men's program or two. It will not at all suprise me to see men's soccer go dinosaur within three years. Maybe baseball.

Soccer is supposedly the most popular sport in the world and the fastest-growing sport in the U.S., especially popular among young people (you know, the ones who grow up and apply to colleges) so, yeah, I think it would be just like Huge to cut soccer (incidentally, relatively speaking, one of W&M's most successful sports).
03-20-2019 04:42 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #28
RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
And tick off Joe Plumeri, the baseball team's main benefactor.
03-20-2019 04:46 PM
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Tribe2011 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
(03-20-2019 04:27 PM)nj alum Wrote:  Tribe 2011-

"we didn’t achieve our ultimate goal in that span".

That's the nub of your piece, correct?

I presume you're referring to the Dance.

W&M's Contract with Tony says otherwise. The big financial incentive in Tony's contract was the conference won-lost record, not the Dance. Sanity ruled in the Contract.

The ultimate goal should be exactly what Tony brought to the program. It's already been achieved. You now risk throwing it away. You're making a big assumption that what Tony did is "the floor" when, in fact, it may be "the ceiling". Don't fall off reaching for that Dance ticket, cause you'll find yourself back on the real floor, looking up at all that Tony achieved, and wishing to be at that level again.

Some posters on here are acting like classic fans of a woe-begone program that attains the heights, and instead of appreciating where they are, they want to go higher, only to find themselves right back in woe-begone territory.

I mean if you honestly think we've achieved all our goals in the last 100 years, then not really sure how to respond...

If we're not trying to make the NCAA tournament and that's not the goal - then why do we have a program? Just fold the thing.

And I'm not assuming anything. I made pretty clear in my post that there's a huge risk of throwing it all away (and even said that I don't support the move, although you overlooked that in putting together a pushback to a straw man). But we'll all have to see the next hire and see what our future support for basketball is before we can judge what those odds are.

I will say one thing - some on here are now pretending like they are perfectly content with 10-8 seasons and that we've made it as a slightly above .500 CAA program just so they can attack the AD. I don't know the guy, but I'm pretty damn sure Tony Shaver was never happy with 10-8 seasons...
03-20-2019 04:47 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #30
RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
(03-20-2019 04:46 PM)nj alum Wrote:  And tick off Joe Plumeri, the baseball team's main benefactor.
Sure, why not? Do you think Kaplan drives Huge's decision on basketball?

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03-20-2019 04:51 PM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
Tribe 2011-

Just stop with the straw man ... pretending .... not the goal? ... prissy stuff.

The gist of your post was that it's okay to fire the man because, while he did everything else W&M asked of him, he didn't make the Dance.

That's the argument, right?

I disagree.

Firing coaches at W&M because they don't make the Dance in a one bid league with limited resources and academic restrictions is not the way to go, IMO.

If you want to go the prissy route, the Dance is a "nice to have" ... it is not a "necessity". Tony gave us the necessities. Tony also reached for the "nice to have". To throw away the necessities to get the "nice to have"... lot of people in the poor house with that philosophy.
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2019 04:56 PM by nj alum.)
03-20-2019 04:55 PM
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Post: #32
RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
Tribe2011,

I think you are right that he wanted to win all 18 conference games and sweep the tourney. But, all the CAA teams want that every year. The bottom line is 2020 had all the cards lined up. Everyone but Paul coming back and the tourney in a very Tribe friendly location. The timing was all wrong, unless there is one or two big donors willing to foot the bill and pick his or her coach. As far the comment that W&M showed Coach Shaver loyalty, that is true in the past. The people that showed that loyalty are all gone. I am not saying any of this is a surprise in many parts of athletics today. It is a big surprise here. I am enjoying watching Belmont and their coach get a glimpse of the tournament and a lot of feel good press for him and their school. He has won over 800 games, but was 0-7 in the NCAA until last night.

The more this plays out, the more I think it all stems from one bad half at the tourney at Delaware. I think UVA may be really glad in a few weeks that they didn't react to a loss to Coach Odom the way we apparently did on March 10th(a day that will live in Tribe infamy forever).

Still not too late to get some amazing positive articles and press by hitting a real reset button, reflection, time machine etc.. I would be happier for Jonathan Holmes if that happened than anyone. He gets no buyout, no grace, and no love in any of this right now.

For those who support the decision, time is your friend. A lot of people will simply go away from Tribe Athletics and find something else to do and be supportive of. In 4-5 years(maybe a little sooner) when the Tribe has finally reached the tourney, the end will have justified the means. Maybe we will have a big time college basketball program. But, maybe we will be JMU's basketball program. They brought in Lefty who was looking to rehabilitate and coach again after the Maryland Bias fiasco and they won for awhile. Absent the 2013 Matt Brady title, they have been a dumpster fire for more than 20 years.

I just hoped for 1 more year. 1 more time like we had in Baltimore in 2014 and 2015 where we had the talent and significant fan support. You can blame Shaver that we didn't win either of those finals. But, you didn't then. At the time, we were all part of something really, really fun. We proudly wore our Tribe gear and cheered Daniel until we couldn't talk. It was worth whatever risk for one more chance in our backyard with Tony, Jonathan, Julian, Austin, Nathan, JP, Matt, Luke, Chase, LJ, Cam, Jihar, Mehkel, Thornton, and Andy. It still is. Do you want another record for One Tribe One Day? Make the announcement to reunite the band for one more run. Ultimately, it might be more memorable than a 2013 first four win(which currently is the last CAA NCAA tournament victory).
03-20-2019 05:20 PM
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tribeintexas Online
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Post: #33
RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
(03-20-2019 05:20 PM)TribePride91 Wrote:  Tribe2011,

I think you are right that he wanted to win all 18 conference games and sweep the tourney. But, all the CAA teams want that every year. The bottom line is 2020 had all the cards lined up. Everyone but Paul coming back and the tourney in a very Tribe friendly location. The timing was all wrong, unless there is one or two big donors willing to foot the bill and pick his or her coach. As far the comment that W&M showed Coach Shaver loyalty, that is true in the past. The people that showed that loyalty are all gone. I am not saying any of this is a surprise in many parts of athletics today. It is a big surprise here. I am enjoying watching Belmont and their coach get a glimpse of the tournament and a lot of feel good press for him and their school. He has won over 800 games, but was 0-7 in the NCAA until last night.

The more this plays out, the more I think it all stems from one bad half at the tourney at Delaware. I think UVA may be really glad in a few weeks that they didn't react to a loss to Coach Odom the way we apparently did on March 10th(a day that will live in Tribe infamy forever).

Still not too late to get some amazing positive articles and press by hitting a real reset button, reflection, time machine etc.. I would be happier for Jonathan Holmes if that happened than anyone. He gets no buyout, no grace, and no love in any of this right now.

For those who support the decision, time is your friend. A lot of people will simply go away from Tribe Athletics and find something else to do and be supportive of. In 4-5 years(maybe a little sooner) when the Tribe has finally reached the tourney, the end will have justified the means. Maybe we will have a big time college basketball program. But, maybe we will be JMU's basketball program. They brought in Lefty who was looking to rehabilitate and coach again after the Maryland Bias fiasco and they won for awhile. Absent the 2013 Matt Brady title, they have been a dumpster fire for more than 20 years.

I just hoped for 1 more year. 1 more time like we had in Baltimore in 2014 and 2015 where we had the talent and significant fan support. You can blame Shaver that we didn't win either of those finals. But, you didn't then. At the time, we were all part of something really, really fun. We proudly wore our Tribe gear and cheered Daniel until we couldn't talk. It was worth whatever risk for one more chance in our backyard with Tony, Jonathan, Julian, Austin, Nathan, JP, Matt, Luke, Chase, LJ, Cam, Jihar, Mehkel, Thornton, and Andy. It still is. Do you want another record for One Tribe One Day? Make the announcement to reunite the band for one more run. Ultimately, it might be more memorable than a 2013 first four win(which currently is the last CAA NCAA tournament victory).

I am sure 99% of us would agree that Tony deserved one more year. If it can be accommodated, I am all for it. However, I just don't see that happening unless Huge is shown the door.
03-20-2019 05:36 PM
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Post: #34
RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
(03-20-2019 05:20 PM)TribePride91 Wrote:  The more this plays out, the more I think it all stems from one bad half at the tourney at Delaware.

That's interesting. The more this plays out the less I think it has to do with one bad half. I think a good run in the tournament (finals?) might have been enough to stave this off for at least one more year, but I don't think this was a decision made rashly. It's certainly possible that it was, and I'd join the crew asking for a new AD if it was, but it's a lot more likely that it was something they had thought long and hard about.
03-20-2019 05:58 PM
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RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
(03-20-2019 04:46 PM)nj alum Wrote:  And tick off Joe Plumeri, the baseball team's main benefactor.

I hope we haven’t pissed off Mr. Kaplan.
03-20-2019 06:00 PM
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RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
"The newspapers don't pay attention to W&M or ever talk about them. What do they know?"- Tribe fans

"Look at these reporters who are clearly acutely aware of everything going on at the program."- Also Tribe fans

Shaver's a good quote, and reporters love coaches who talk to them and give them material. That's why ESPN went to the mattresses for Boeheim a few years ago when he was caught cheating. They aren't paying attention to the program.
03-20-2019 06:10 PM
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RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
(03-20-2019 04:47 PM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  
(03-20-2019 04:27 PM)nj alum Wrote:  Tribe 2011-

"we didn’t achieve our ultimate goal in that span".

That's the nub of your piece, correct?

I presume you're referring to the Dance.

W&M's Contract with Tony says otherwise. The big financial incentive in Tony's contract was the conference won-lost record, not the Dance. Sanity ruled in the Contract.

The ultimate goal should be exactly what Tony brought to the program. It's already been achieved. You now risk throwing it away. You're making a big assumption that what Tony did is "the floor" when, in fact, it may be "the ceiling". Don't fall off reaching for that Dance ticket, cause you'll find yourself back on the real floor, looking up at all that Tony achieved, and wishing to be at that level again.

Some posters on here are acting like classic fans of a woe-begone program that attains the heights, and instead of appreciating where they are, they want to go higher, only to find themselves right back in woe-begone territory.

I mean if you honestly think we've achieved all our goals in the last 100 years, then not really sure how to respond...

If we're not trying to make the NCAA tournament and that's not the goal - then why do we have a program? Just fold the thing.

And I'm not assuming anything. I made pretty clear in my post that there's a huge risk of throwing it all away (and even said that I don't support the move, although you overlooked that in putting together a pushback to a straw man). But we'll all have to see the next hire and see what our future support for basketball is before we can judge what those odds are.

I will say one thing - some on here are now pretending like they are perfectly content with 10-8 seasons and that we've made it as a slightly above .500 CAA program just so they can attack the AD. I don't know the guy, but I'm pretty damn sure Tony Shaver was never happy with 10-8 seasons...

The problem is the people who are Definitely Not Mad Online about this think the standards for the program are the same as they were when Shaver inherited a dumpster fire. No longer is simply not being a mess good enough. Huge didn't think Shaver was the guy to get it done based on the last 16 seasons. That's it.

The 10-8 seasons started coming once all the good teams left and stopped handing out 6 automatic losses to W&M a season. After 2014-15 W&M's generally been a notch below the top teams while being slightly better than the raging dumpster fires in the conference.
03-20-2019 06:14 PM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
Get what done?
03-20-2019 06:18 PM
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RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
(03-20-2019 06:14 PM)Rocco Wrote:  The problem is the people who are Definitely Not Mad Online about this think the standards for the program are the same as they were when Shaver inherited a dumpster fire. No longer is simply not being a mess good enough. Huge didn't think Shaver was the guy to get it done based on the last 16 seasons. That's it.

The 10-8 seasons started coming once all the good teams left and stopped handing out 6 automatic losses to W&M a season. After 2014-15 W&M's generally been a notch below the top teams while being slightly better than the raging dumpster fires in the conference.

As I said before, when people shift their expectations for a program based on a coach's success, it becomes a treadmill they can never win. Even if Tony *weren't* continuing the improve the program's chances (and based on the fact that he recruited the best class in our history last year, I think he was), the expectations have to be set against the potential alternatives (e.g. whoever is willing to work at a small-town mid-major with limited name-brand value for $300k with a strict budget/admission standards). Almost every school who has fired a successful coach to "take the next step" has wound up fading into irrelevancy. Look at Illinois, Pittsburgh, Stanford etc.
03-21-2019 08:00 AM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: William and Mary made the wrong decision to fire Tony
(03-21-2019 08:00 AM)FauqDawg10 Wrote:  
(03-20-2019 06:14 PM)Rocco Wrote:  The problem is the people who are Definitely Not Mad Online about this think the standards for the program are the same as they were when Shaver inherited a dumpster fire. No longer is simply not being a mess good enough. Huge didn't think Shaver was the guy to get it done based on the last 16 seasons. That's it.

The 10-8 seasons started coming once all the good teams left and stopped handing out 6 automatic losses to W&M a season. After 2014-15 W&M's generally been a notch below the top teams while being slightly better than the raging dumpster fires in the conference.

As I said before, when people shift their expectations for a program based on a coach's success, it becomes a treadmill they can never win. Even if Tony *weren't* continuing the improve the program's chances (and based on the fact that he recruited the best class in our history last year, I think he was), the expectations have to be set against the potential alternatives (e.g. whoever is willing to work at a small-town mid-major with limited name-brand value for $300k with a strict budget/admission standards). Almost every school who has fired a successful coach to "take the next step" has wound up fading into irrelevancy. Look at Illinois, Pittsburgh, Stanford etc.

Well said. I agree.
03-21-2019 08:07 AM
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