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Clarence Thomas questions Gideon v. Wainwright
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b0ndsj0ns Offline
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Clarence Thomas questions Gideon v. Wainwright
Just to be clear here this is the slippery slope of where originalism can go. He's not wrong that there's nothing in the constitution or the 6th amendment at the time it was ratified that said if you can't afford an attorney you had to be provided one. This has only been a guaranteed constitutional right since 1963. In section 3 of Thomas' dissent, he calls into question the entire notion. I'm sure there's going to be members of this point that support this, but that's scary stuff right there to basically support the idea of saying poor people don't have to be given counsel.

Times Article

Transcript of the opinion and the dissent
03-19-2019 05:07 PM
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UofMstateU Offline
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RE: Clarence Thomas questions Gideon v. Wainwright
Here's what some people may not know about "not being able to afford an attorney".

Yes, if you cant afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you.

No, you do not get them for free. You will have to pay the attorney. Even if you are poor. Surprise.
03-19-2019 05:58 PM
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b0ndsj0ns Offline
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RE: Clarence Thomas questions Gideon v. Wainwright
(03-19-2019 05:58 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Here's what some people may not know about "not being able to afford an attorney".

Yes, if you cant afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you.

No, you do not get them for free. You will have to pay the attorney. Even if you are poor. Surprise.

That's certainly not what is being described on the ABA website

Certainly sounds free if you are a certain level of poor
03-19-2019 06:47 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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RE: Clarence Thomas questions Gideon v. Wainwright
(03-19-2019 05:07 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Just to be clear here this is the slippery slope of where originalism can go. He's not wrong that there's nothing in the constitution or the 6th amendment at the time it was ratified that said if you can't afford an attorney you had to be provided one. This has only been a guaranteed constitutional right since 1963. In section 3 of Thomas' dissent, he calls into question the entire notion. I'm sure there's going to be members of this point that support this, but that's scary stuff right there to basically support the idea of saying poor people don't have to be given counsel.

Times Article

Transcript of the opinion and the dissent

What does the 6th Amendment say?
03-19-2019 06:57 PM
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king king Offline
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RE: Clarence Thomas questions Gideon v. Wainwright
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining Witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defence.
03-19-2019 07:37 PM
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banker Offline
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RE: Clarence Thomas questions Gideon v. Wainwright
Your opportunity to become well versed in the evolution of right to counsel.

https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendme...n10.html#1
03-19-2019 09:37 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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RE: Clarence Thomas questions Gideon v. Wainwright
Wait... This case isn't about the right to counsel.

It's about the right to waive an appeal in order to avoid the death penalty... and then to appeal anyway.

ALmost any plea deal waives you're right to a trial by jury... something specifically afforded in our laws. Why should this be different?
03-20-2019 11:30 AM
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b0ndsj0ns Offline
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RE: Clarence Thomas questions Gideon v. Wainwright
(03-20-2019 11:30 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Wait... This case isn't about the right to counsel.

It's about the right to waive an appeal in order to avoid the death penalty... and then to appeal anyway.

ALmost any plea deal waives you're right to a trial by jury... something specifically afforded in our laws. Why should this be different?

Correct, the case itself has nothing at all to do with the right to counsel, but it doesn't have anything to do with what you are talking about either.

Petitioner Gilberto Garza, Jr., signed two plea agreements, each arising
from state criminal charges and each containing a clause stating that
Garza waived his right to appeal. Shortly after sentencing, Garza
told his trial counsel that he wished to appeal. Instead of filing a notice of appeal, counsel informed Garza that an appeal would be “problematic” given Garza’s appeal waiver. After the time period for Garza to preserve an appeal lapsed, he sought state postconviction relief,
alleging that his trial counsel had rendered ineffective assistance by
failing to file a notice of appeal despite his repeated requests. The
Idaho trial court denied relief, and the Idaho Court of Appeals affirmed. Also affirming, the Idaho Supreme Court held that Garza
could not show the requisite deficient performance by counsel and resulting prejudice. In doing so, the court concluded that the presumption of prejudice recognized in Roe v. Flores-Ortega, 528 U. S. 470,
when trial counsel fails to file an appeal as instructed does not apply
when the defendant has agreed to an appeal waiver.

Basically, Garza agreed to a plea, then decided he wanted to appeal something. His lawyer ignored his client's wishes and he then filed for post-conviction relief for ineffective assistance of counsel. The Supreme Court ruled in his favor, which by the way only means he can file the original appeal he wanted to file in the first place (that his lawyer probably wasn't wrong that he will lose). You are right though this entire case has nothing to do with the right to counsel, yet the 3rd section of Thomas' dissent is all about the 6th amendment and the right to counsel.

In addition to breaking from this Court’s precedent,
today’s decision moves the Court another step further
from the original meaning of the Sixth Amendment. The
Sixth Amendment provides that, “[i]n all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right . . . to have the
Assistance of Counsel for his defense.” That provision “as
originally understood and ratified meant only that a defendant had a right to employ counsel, or to use volunteered services of counsel.” Padilla v. Kentucky, 559 U. S.
356, 389 (2010) (Scalia, J., dissenting). Yet, the Court has
read the Constitution to require not only a right to counsel
at taxpayers’ expense, but a right to effective counsel. The
result is that convicted criminals can relitigate their trial
and appellate claims through collateral challenges
couched as ineffective-assistance-of-counsel claims. Because little available evidence suggests that this reading is
correct as an original matter, the Court should tread
carefully before extending our precedents in this area.

The point to why he put all this really unrelated nonsense in is that it allows judges to be able to cite this later for some nonsense decision, a la what he just did citing a dissent from Scalia in 2010 describing what his opinion of the originally understood version of the 6th amendment is. He's trying to create precedent out of thin air that doesn't exist.
03-21-2019 11:55 AM
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BobL Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Clarence Thomas questions Gideon v. Wainwright
(03-19-2019 05:07 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Just to be clear here this is the slippery slope of where originalism can go. He's not wrong that there's nothing in the constitution or the 6th amendment at the time it was ratified that said if you can't afford an attorney you had to be provided one. This has only been a guaranteed constitutional right since 1963. In section 3 of Thomas' dissent, he calls into question the entire notion. I'm sure there's going to be members of this point that support this, but that's scary stuff right there to basically support the idea of saying poor people don't have to be given counsel.

Times Article

Transcript of the opinion and the dissent

Clarence Thomas asking a question is the big news here....
03-21-2019 03:25 PM
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