(03-13-2019 07:58 PM)82hawk Wrote:  With all the changes happening and now the decision to let Shaver go, any chance this could be the first step in moving funds into the basketball program and out of football, with football being the next domino to fall?

lol

"Shaver has been great for the program" and "Shaver's probably moved the program as far as he can" are not mutually exclusive.

Laycock was a legend, but it was justifiable to push him out given the recent slide of the program. That isn't true for Shaver. The next hire needs to be good and needs to win over the fans and players quickly. He also needs to believe in defense.

Agree re: football. Basketball had not become painful to watch.

Shaver went 110-77 the last six seasons, including 2 CAA tournament finals and an NIT appearance.

Hard to justify this development given the track record before Shaver arrived. If that is the standard, god help the next coach once Shaver's recruits depart.

(03-13-2019 07:56 PM)Tribeheart Wrote:  Huge's biggest responsibility as AD is successfully financing the athletic department, from fund-raising and revenue generation. Beyond just our desire for a solid, high character basketball program and to finally break into the tournament for the first time, making the NCAA tournament on a periodic basis has a major impact with significant, guaranteed income received as a participant, and, consequently, any AD's ability to fulfill their financial responsibilities. VCU's tournament success has carried their AD budget. It's a gift that keeps on giving beyond the year a team makes it. For financially strapped athletic departments, NCAA basketball tournament participation is a significant potential cash source. Unless an athletic department has a daddy with unlimited deep pockets, other monetary sources take on priority out of necessity.
On the surface of a business decision, it's easy to just project an AD's personal ambition or not being loyal to a deserving employee, but the devil may be in the details regarding fiscal responsibilities and needs.

Okay, everything you said might very well be true. But I don't think that is what swayed Huge's thinking. To me, it boils down to one of two things:

1) Huge did not believe that Shaver would win the CAA next year, even with the loaded team returning. If she truly believed that, then she wanted to get Shaver out and get someone in there who could win with the loaded team (because it is a one-year window). Because if she did think that Shaver could get it done then there would be no reason to fire him (his winning would lead to all those good things you mentioned above) ......unless.......

2. Huge did not care one way or the other whether Shaver could do it next year -- because she had her own agenda. That is, the returning team is so good potentially that she thinks any competent coach can lead them to success. If so, then Huge would rather that success come at the hands of the coach she hired rather than a coach previously hired (and who she would never be able to get rid of once he won the CAA tournament).

So, in my opinion, this is truly a case of one person taking total advantage of all the hard work of another person and then stealing the thunder and the credit. I call that sleazy. Is there anyone on this board who truly thinks that Shaver was incapable of leading this team to a title next year?

(03-13-2019 08:53 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-13-2019 07:56 PM)Tribeheart Wrote:  Huge's biggest responsibility as AD is successfully financing the athletic department, from fund-raising and revenue generation. Beyond just our desire for a solid, high character basketball program and to finally break into the tournament for the first time, making the NCAA tournament on a periodic basis has a major impact with significant, guaranteed income received as a participant, and, consequently, any AD's ability to fulfill their financial responsibilities. VCU's tournament success has carried their AD budget. It's a gift that keeps on giving beyond the year a team makes it. For financially strapped athletic departments, NCAA basketball tournament participation is a significant potential cash source. Unless an athletic department has a daddy with unlimited deep pockets, other monetary sources take on priority out of necessity.
On the surface of a business decision, it's easy to just project an AD's personal ambition or not being loyal to a deserving employee, but the devil may be in the details regarding fiscal responsibilities and needs.

Okay, everything you said might very well be true. But I don't think that is what swayed Huge's thinking. To me, it boils down to one of two things:

1) Huge did not believe that Shaver would win the CAA next year, even with the loaded team returning. If she truly believed that, then she wanted to get Shaver out and get someone in there who could win with the loaded team (because it is a one-year window). Because if she did think that Shaver could get it done then there would be no reason to fire him (his winning would lead to all those good things you mentioned above) ......unless.......

2. Huge did not care one way or the other whether Shaver could do it next year -- because she had her own agenda. That is, the returning team is so good potentially that she thinks any competent coach can lead them to success. If so, then Huge would rather that success come at the hands of the coach she hired rather than a coach previously hired (and who she would never be able to get rid of once he won the CAA tournament).

So, in my opinion, this is truly a case of one person taking total advantage of all the hard work of another person and then stealing the thunder and the credit. I call that sleazy. Is there anyone on this board who truly thinks that Shaver was incapable of leading this team to a title next year?

: well said

Shocked and sorry about Shaver being let go.

He’s a class individual and a solid basketball coach. Ever since NU has been in the league our games have been very competitive. Until recently NU had issues at Kaplan Arena.

I sure hope you can get Knight to stay around for his senior year. You have some talented young players.

(03-13-2019 05:24 PM)Tribeheart Wrote:  

(03-13-2019 05:14 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  I’m interested to see where Shaver ends up.

I hope the positive for Tony and staff will be that the timing will leave him primed to be picked up by a great landing spot with the coaching musical chairs between now and the Final Four weekend.

We all are grateful, Tony!

Seriously, folks, Tony has to be at least 65 years old. No major program is going to hire someone that old to resuscitate their program. They don't have the time and maybe Tony's health doesn't have the time.

Plus, if Tony does still have several years on his contract then he can get paid for nothing. Does he still have the fire for another rebuilding job somewhere else? Really, the only reason for him to coach again (assuming someone wants him at the Div-1 level) is for him to "stick it" to W&M (and he doesn't strike me as that kind of guy). I think he might like to coach again but it would probably be at a lower division level. How would an AD at a mid-major or above justify hiring a 65 year old man for a minimum 3-4 year repair job?

(03-13-2019 07:08 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  I posted below on UNCW board, thought it belonged here as an opinion.

W&M has been transitioning away from the Old Guard way of management for over a year now. Tony is just the latest to take a hit.

Post: #28RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(Today 04:01 PM)solohawks Wrote:
An AD comes in a runs off a successful coach...stop me if.youve heard this before

I really like Shaver and have been pleased with his leadership at W&M. Class guy with class players, fun to watch, never any problems. Fan base overall content.

New AD sees a coach who has been there 16 years, has an overall losing record and a program that hasn't been able to get in the tourney.

I think it's the difference on how people define success.

I think its a lack of historical context and understanding of WMs standing (i.e., resources) relative to the overall DI basketball landscape. This is the downside of hiring from outside the "Tribe".

Sure, if WM were in the ACC Shaver would have been fired after his first three years. Huge doesn't seem to understand where the program was before Shaver arrived and that the only reason we can even talk about the possibility of dancing now is because of Shaver.

WYDaily is reporting that W&M is "mum" on whether Shaver was fired or not. The school did say he did not resign.

(03-13-2019 08:53 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-13-2019 07:56 PM)Tribeheart Wrote:  Huge's biggest responsibility as AD is successfully financing the athletic department, from fund-raising and revenue generation. Beyond just our desire for a solid, high character basketball program and to finally break into the tournament for the first time, making the NCAA tournament on a periodic basis has a major impact with significant, guaranteed income received as a participant, and, consequently, any AD's ability to fulfill their financial responsibilities. VCU's tournament success has carried their AD budget. It's a gift that keeps on giving beyond the year a team makes it. For financially strapped athletic departments, NCAA basketball tournament participation is a significant potential cash source. Unless an athletic department has a daddy with unlimited deep pockets, other monetary sources take on priority out of necessity.
On the surface of a business decision, it's easy to just project an AD's personal ambition or not being loyal to a deserving employee, but the devil may be in the details regarding fiscal responsibilities and needs.

Okay, everything you said might very well be true. But I don't think that is what swayed Huge's thinking. To me, it boils down to one of two things:

1) Huge did not believe that Shaver would win the CAA next year, even with the loaded team returning. If she truly believed that, then she wanted to get Shaver out and get someone in there who could win with the loaded team (because it is a one-year window). Because if she did think that Shaver could get it done then there would be no reason to fire him (his winning would lead to all those good things you mentioned above) ......unless.......

2. Huge did not care one way or the other whether Shaver could do it next year -- because she had her own agenda. That is, the returning team is so good potentially that she thinks any competent coach can lead them to success. If so, then Huge would rather that success come at the hands of the coach she hired rather than a coach previously hired (and who she would never be able to get rid of once he won the CAA tournament).

So, in my opinion, this is truly a case of one person taking total advantage of all the hard work of another person and then stealing the thunder and the credit. I call that sleazy. Is there anyone on this board who truly thinks that Shaver was incapable of leading this team to a title next year?

If Huge believes that next year's team is going to be "so good", she's out of her mind. Their success is hardly inevitable. Even if we assume that the entire roster returns (a generous assumption), it strikes me as the height of folly to simply assume that a team will go from 14-17 to dominant in one season, and to further assume that any coach was capable of overseeing said transformation.[/b]

Sounds like Luke Ford is out, too

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

(03-13-2019 09:04 PM)tribeinexile Wrote:  WYDaily is reporting that W&M is "mum" on whether Shaver was fired or not. The school did say he did not resign.

I have a very hard time believing he “resigned” His statement reflects that, IMO.

(03-13-2019 09:10 PM)Tribal Wrote:  Sounds like Luke Ford is out, too

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

If you were talking about his tweet, to me, it sounded more like a “Thank you Shaver” than him leaving/ being fired. Shavers @ is “@TribeBasketball”

Tony was close but fell short on his and our ultimate goal. I just wished he was little more aggressive on pairing Nathan with able big men. I've been frustrated watching MBB with thin front line in recent years I'm not happy with Huge's decision as Tony deserved at least 1 more season. But like it or not she is our AD and she will be judged later on.

(03-13-2019 09:03 PM)WMTribe90 Wrote:  

(03-13-2019 07:08 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  I posted below on UNCW board, thought it belonged here as an opinion.

W&M has been transitioning away from the Old Guard way of management for over a year now. Tony is just the latest to take a hit.

Post: #28RE: Tony Shaver out at William & Mary
(Today 04:01 PM)solohawks Wrote:
An AD comes in a runs off a successful coach...stop me if.youve heard this before

I really like Shaver and have been pleased with his leadership at W&M. Class guy with class players, fun to watch, never any problems. Fan base overall content.

New AD sees a coach who has been there 16 years, has an overall losing record and a program that hasn't been able to get in the tourney.

I think it's the difference on how people define success.

I think its a lack of historical context and understanding of WMs standing (i.e., resources) relative to the overall DI basketball landscape. This is the downside of hiring from outside the "Tribe".

Sure, if WM were in the ACC Shaver would have been fired after his first three years. Huge doesn't seem to understand where the program was before Shaver arrived and that the only reason we can even talk about the possibility of dancing now is because of Shaver.

Well said about the lack of historical context. I used that same idea (but worded it much more poorly) in my email to President Rowe. I also wish I had thought of that line about the difference on how people define success --- that truly says it all about this situation. To some of us, Shaver epitomized the truly successful program (good kids graduating and actually winning more than they lose) while to others he was just a loser who couldn't win the big game. Give me a thousand Shavers before you give me one Pitino or Calipari or (fill in your own choice).

I NEVER thought that I would say this but Huge is actually making Terry Driscoll look good.

(03-13-2019 09:02 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-13-2019 05:24 PM)Tribeheart Wrote:  

(03-13-2019 05:14 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  I’m interested to see where Shaver ends up.

I hope the positive for Tony and staff will be that the timing will leave him primed to be picked up by a great landing spot with the coaching musical chairs between now and the Final Four weekend.

We all are grateful, Tony!

Seriously, folks, Tony has to be at least 65 years old. No major program is going to hire someone that old to resuscitate their program. They don't have the time and maybe Tony's health doesn't have the time.

Plus, if Tony does still have several years on his contract then he can get paid for nothing. Does he still have the fire for another rebuilding job somewhere else? Really, the only reason for him to coach again (assuming someone wants him at the Div-1 level) is for him to "stick it" to W&M (and he doesn't strike me as that kind of guy). I think he might like to coach again but it would probably be at a lower division level. How would an AD at a mid-major or above justify hiring a 65 year old man for a minimum 3-4 year repair job?

Tony is 65. Miami hired Jim Larranaga when he was 62. Not the same, but not that far off.

(03-13-2019 09:14 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  

(03-13-2019 09:02 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-13-2019 05:24 PM)Tribeheart Wrote:  

(03-13-2019 05:14 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  I’m interested to see where Shaver ends up.

I hope the positive for Tony and staff will be that the timing will leave him primed to be picked up by a great landing spot with the coaching musical chairs between now and the Final Four weekend.

We all are grateful, Tony!

Seriously, folks, Tony has to be at least 65 years old. No major program is going to hire someone that old to resuscitate their program. They don't have the time and maybe Tony's health doesn't have the time.

Plus, if Tony does still have several years on his contract then he can get paid for nothing. Does he still have the fire for another rebuilding job somewhere else? Really, the only reason for him to coach again (assuming someone wants him at the Div-1 level) is for him to "stick it" to W&M (and he doesn't strike me as that kind of guy). I think he might like to coach again but it would probably be at a lower division level. How would an AD at a mid-major or above justify hiring a 65 year old man for a minimum 3-4 year repair job?

Tony is 65. Miami hired Jim Larranaga when he was 62. Not the same, but not that far off.

Yeah, but Larranaga had been to a Final 4. A lot easier to justify for the hiring AD.

(03-13-2019 09:23 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-13-2019 09:14 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  

(03-13-2019 09:02 PM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-13-2019 05:24 PM)Tribeheart Wrote:  

(03-13-2019 05:14 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  I’m interested to see where Shaver ends up.

I hope the positive for Tony and staff will be that the timing will leave him primed to be picked up by a great landing spot with the coaching musical chairs between now and the Final Four weekend.

We all are grateful, Tony!

Seriously, folks, Tony has to be at least 65 years old. No major program is going to hire someone that old to resuscitate their program. They don't have the time and maybe Tony's health doesn't have the time.

Plus, if Tony does still have several years on his contract then he can get paid for nothing. Does he still have the fire for another rebuilding job somewhere else? Really, the only reason for him to coach again (assuming someone wants him at the Div-1 level) is for him to "stick it" to W&M (and he doesn't strike me as that kind of guy). I think he might like to coach again but it would probably be at a lower division level. How would an AD at a mid-major or above justify hiring a 65 year old man for a minimum 3-4 year repair job?

Tony is 65. Miami hired Jim Larranaga when he was 62. Not the same, but not that far off.

Yeah, but Larranaga had been to a Final 4. A lot easier to justify for the hiring AD.

Like I said, not the same.

A lot of these posts assume next year’s team looks the same after Tony’s firing. What if this move, and prospect of breaking in a new coach, is just enough for Nathan to sit out a year, transfer to a Power 5 school, and increase his draft stock? Every defection from next year’s team now lies at the feet of Huge.

(03-13-2019 09:39 PM)wrnbldg Wrote:  A lot of these posts assume next year’s team looks the same after Tony’s firing. What if this move, and prospect of breaking in a new coach, is just enough for Nathan to sit out a year, transfer to a Power 5 school, and increase his draft stock? Every defection from next year’s team now lies at the feet of Huge.

not only Nate, but Andy could leave as a Graduate Transfer and so could Milon. We still have to be able to hold on to the Freshmen and the new recruit.