My post was that I haven't seen them yet, literally. I know who has won the CAA Rookie of the week, but that's about it. I'm interested in seeing the kid from Wilmington play. I want to see Owens play more minutes, but I think he can make all rookie. Audige seems like a lock for the all rookie team right now. This is one of the thinnest freshman classes across the CAA in my memory in terms of impact/star players.

Well, we just played two of the top teams in the conference and they had a combined 0 freshmen, so that probably has something to do with it.

To what year I have been a fan since, 2010 was really when I can clearly remember back to. As for the points about development. In my mind, there is a big difference between development from coaches, individual development, and increased opportunity.

Burchfield was simply increased opportunity. Milon when at BC was a top 5 shooter in the country. Cohn instantly came in beat NC state and regressed until last season. Prewitt regressed as well. Dixon and Tarpey got bigger, stronger, and more opportunities to lead once Thornton was gone. Any improvements from these players is from increased opportunity or the simple fact that they have gotten into better shape, which masks the fact that the talent level has always been the same.

Easy examples are Knight, Pierce, and Milon. All played big minutes last year and you would think all would improve this year. There has been no improvement. In fact you could probably say they have regressed. Nate the last 2 years had a baby hook in the lane and also took guys off the dribble. That has decreased to basically 3 power dribbles and an off balance throw up to the basket. Hes got great touch so it works but no real post development. He also gets so few shots. He should be leading the team in shots every game but this has always been a perimeter team unable to adjust to when best players are in the post.

Pierce gets his shot from pure effort and this has always been the case. He hasnt developed an ability to get to the basket unless he catches the ball in motion, and his shooting from everywhere on the court has gotten worse.

Milon was an elite shooter coming from BC and should be a great scorer the way he can always get his shot off. But hes frequently lost his spot in the lineup to freshman, seems to have progressively gotten less confident with the ball in his hands, and has yet to improve on defense.

When I watch a game, from the coaching staff everything seems negative. So when Milon makes an error, which seems to be more times than not, it seems to just be yelling with never any positive so now the guy will play scared in fear of the screams to come which cycles and cycles until he is a shell of his former self.

As for Knight being the best player in the CAA. It is without question, wrightforeman shot like 1 of 20 from 3 against us. If Knight got 20 shots a game total, this would not even be a question. Everyone else in this conference can be guarded. No one can guard Knight, and that includes Cacok and Brantlay. Let him go 1 on 1 until he gets stopped or is doubled. This isnt a team from the past that has elite guard play to spark the offense and never seems to adjust to that.

With that being said, we will likely beat up on Elon as we always do and all will be forgotten.

(01-18-2019 09:58 AM)TribalBeaver Wrote:  To what year I have been a fan since, 2010 was really when I can clearly remember back to. As for the points about development. In my mind, there is a big difference between development from coaches, individual development, and increased opportunity.

Burchfield was simply increased opportunity. Milon when at BC was a top 5 shooter in the country. Cohn instantly came in beat NC state and regressed until last season. Prewitt regressed as well. Dixon and Tarpey got bigger, stronger, and more opportunities to lead once Thornton was gone. Any improvements from these players is from increased opportunity or the simple fact that they have gotten into better shape, which masks the fact that the talent level has always been the same.

Easy examples are Knight, Pierce, and Milon. All played big minutes last year and you would think all would improve this year. There has been no improvement. In fact you could probably say they have regressed. Nate the last 2 years had a baby hook in the lane and also took guys off the dribble. That has decreased to basically 3 power dribbles and an off balance throw up to the basket. Hes got great touch so it works but no real post development. He also gets so few shots. He should be leading the team in shots every game but this has always been a perimeter team unable to adjust to when best players are in the post.

Pierce gets his shot from pure effort and this has always been the case. He hasnt developed an ability to get to the basket unless he catches the ball in motion, and his shooting from everywhere on the court has gotten worse.

Milon was an elite shooter coming from BC and should be a great scorer the way he can always get his shot off. But hes frequently lost his spot in the lineup to freshman, seems to have progressively gotten less confident with the ball in his hands, and has yet to improve on defense.

When I watch a game, from the coaching staff everything seems negative. So when Milon makes an error, which seems to be more times than not, it seems to just be yelling with never any positive so now the guy will play scared in fear of the screams to come which cycles and cycles until he is a shell of his former self.

As for Knight being the best player in the CAA. It is without question, wrightforeman shot like 1 of 20 from 3 against us. If Knight got 20 shots a game total, this would not even be a question. Everyone else in this conference can be guarded. No one can guard Knight, and that includes Cacok and Brantlay. Let him go 1 on 1 until he gets stopped or is doubled. This isnt a team from the past that has elite guard play to spark the offense and never seems to adjust to that.

With that being said, we will likely beat up on Elon as we always do and all will be forgotten.

TribalBeaver: I'm having trouble following your logic.

1) The three primary reasons that Knight, Pierce, and Milon don't look as good as last year have nothing to do with coaching. 1: we've lost the best PG W&M has ever had. 2: we're needing to work 4 players into the regular rotation who had no to minimal playing time last year. 3: injuries. Not excusing their inconsistent play, nor am I saying the coaches don't get some blame, but to not mention those 3 factors when trying to support your claim that this staff is not good is extremely biased analysis.

2) Re: Cohn - you're saying he regressed because he started his career with us with a bang at the NC State game, had a downward sloping 2-year run (is this true?), and then had one of the best single seasons from a Tribe PG ever ... not to mention ending his career as our all-time assist leader after playing for only 3 years?! Sounds to me like someone who was learning the system year 1, finding his role and deferring too much to Prewitt/Dixon in year 2, and then crushing it in year 3. Yep, that's definitely regression, and something the coaching staff should get no credit for, and only blame. Huh?

3) Re: Milon, you talk about what a great shooter he was at BC. Well, he was also a great shooter last year at W&M, under these coaches. See point #1 about the primary reasons his shooting has regressed. Not to do with coaching. And even last year, when Milon displayed his streakiness, he was benched for periods of time. I don't see him being treated any differently this year than last in terms of the coaches riding him hard.

4) Increased opportunity (e.g. for Burchfield, Dixon, Tarpey, etc.) is something we can't give coaches credit for, but decreased opportunity (e.g. when they are giving freshmen playing time over Milon) is something we can blame the coaches for? The staff makes decisions on all playing time - so they get credit / blame in all scenarios.

All parties, coaching staff included, need to do better for this team to turn it around. But this is not as simple a story as you are trying to make it. And if we have to pick a single reason for the team's struggles this year, it is undoubtedly the departure of Cohn. Nothing is an even close #2.

I appreciate the post, TribeBeaver, but I could not disagree more with it. The only part I agree with is the disappointment. Knight has dramatically improved this season. Burchfield and Cohn were not mere opportunities and neither involved real regression(they were each much better all around players when they graduated). Cohn's season last season was one of the best by a point guard ever at W&M and was mentioned as such by the staff. Dixon and Tarpey massively improved during their time here as have many of the players in the last 8 years during the time you reference. Prewitt might have regressed slightly during his final year, but he had an excellent 4 year career at W&M. Had he made 2 free throws in the final minute at the CAA Championship, his jersey would already be retired and in the rafters(that might not be fair, but it is the truth). There is a good argument that there was no regression. Finally, for Pierce, to the extent that he is struggling this season, may be all related to his wrist, knee, and ankle issues. He is still, even at 60-70%, an impact player. He also represents a critical piece to any team success we hope to have. The current freshman are at a level beyond anything I have seen in any Tribe class since 1987 with the possible exception of this season's current juniors. Finally, if all players remain and continue to improve, we lose 1 player, Paul Rowley, at the end of this season.

It is apparent that you are not enamored with the coaching staff. I suggest you take a look at a recent posting on the UNCW board that comes from a different perspective concerning Tribe basketball. Some of us might be a little more patient than you because we lived thru the Swenson and Boyages years of absolutely dreadful basketball. Yes, Coach Shaver has not won a CAA tourney title. But, he, the staff and players have gone to 4 tourney finals, won more conference games than any other school over that period, been to the semifinals 5 consecutive years(the only program to do that), and during that last 5 seasons been fairly successful. Prior to his arrival, we had 1(one) winning successful season in the prior 15 years and a total of 2 CAA tournament wins in 15 years. Also, the only time the Tribe has been the favorite and also had the larger fanbase at the tourney was in 2015(Northeastern, sigh). That game followed one of the hardest and most emotional wins in Tribe history the day before and our guys were likely mentally and physically exhausted as were some of our fans.

This season, the CAA has 3 schools(Hofstra, Charleston and Northeastern) that are filled with upperclassmen. All 3 of those schools finished 1-3 last year. As good as they look, they have a total of 2 combined CAA titles(Northeastern in 2015(sigh)) and Charleston last season(2018). It is not easy to win consistently in this league. I wish we had won against Hofstra and against Delaware and were 5-1 right now, but we didn't. It is far too early to pack it in on the team or the staff. If I could transport you back to 1990 when we walked in and sat in the front row for games to see us get destroyed, you would understand why some of us are still optimistic.
We might not have enough ultimately to overcome JWF, Grant Riller, and Vasa Pusica and all of the upperclassmen at Northeastern this season, but we definitely have a real chance. I'm not ready to say that 2 home losses(one in triple OT) means the season is over.

(01-18-2019 10:56 AM)ColonelEbirt Wrote:  4) Increased opportunity (e.g. for Burchfield, Dixon, Tarpey, etc.) is something we can't give coaches credit for, but decreased opportunity (e.g. when they are giving freshmen playing time over Milon) is something we can blame the coaches for? The staff makes decisions on all playing time - so they get credit / blame in all scenarios.

You can give coaches credit or blame for a change in playing time on merit (in the coach's opinion), but not increased playing time due to departures.

As for regression, Pierce and Milon are worse than last season. Knight is about the same, and if I had to pick I would say slightly better this season.

(01-14-2019 04:55 PM)TribalBeaver Wrote:  I have been a Tribe fan for, jeez, half my life now which has prompted me to post this but I have so disappointed in this team. It does not make sense to me how we are losing all the games we are. We are the deepest, and likely the most talented team in the conference. Every time we step on the court, we have the most talented player in Knight, the best shooter in the conference in Milon, the best pair of first years in Audige and Owens, and that does not even include the best all around player on our team, Pierce or the smartest guy on the court in Rowley.

Seems to be that players do not develop or improve over their time with the Tribe, we have a constant system that is great when we are not the most talented team but seems to hinder us the more talented our roster is, and we seem to never really adjust.

The above would point me towards coaching being the issue but maybe someone here can fill me in on what I am missing.

A fan since 2010?

You want us to fill you in on what you’re missing?

Okay.

Before my time, legendary Blow Gym was the home court, and current ACC teams were on the home schedule.

During my time, lost by 4 at Pauley, lost in OT at home to Wake, and beat #2 UNC at home, with ANNUAL home games vs. Richmond, VCU, and ODU.

After my time, the bottom falls out during the Swenson years, at the same time that college hoops is exploding on the national scene. Instead of riding the college hoops wave / craze due to the above paragraphs, W&M men’s hoops is no where to be found, can’t keep up, and has to use a style of play that made the Princeton offense look like the Runnin Rebels.

At the same time, the rabid student fan base (aka the frats) was run off campus by the school.

The fall of Tribe men’s hoops was steep and disgraceful, and the Hall was a morgue. Painful, painful, painful.

Charlie provided a brief respite.

Then Tony arrived. Herculean task. It has taken a lot of hard work and sweat. The home schedule. The style of play. Recruiting. Game day atmosphere. Conference defections. On and on and on.

Here we are...2019. Most individual talent we’ve seen in a long, long time. Hasn’t jelled as a team. Will it? When? March, 2019? Next year?

Honestly, not sure I care. We have our program back ... it was MIA for decades. Big picture ... that’s what counts.

I by no means am against this staff. I was not around for the previous years but understand and appreciate the relevancy they have ushered in. I will also give them an enormous amount of credit for their recruiting ability and now their ability in the transfer arena. They do an unbelievable job of attracting talent. Even Malinowski is having a solid year at Georgetown.

Issues that I have been trying to say: This team consistently does not play as well as their talent level would suggest. If you put all the CAA players into a draft and selected them, William and Mary would have far more high selections than other teams which is a reflection of the coaching staffs ability to find talent. However, this talent does not translate as well as it should. Tarpey won a title in France, Dixon and Burchfield in the G league, Thornton an nba draft pick, the postgraduate careers of Tribe players goes on and on and likely will continue with this bunch of juniors and below. JMU won a title with Goins as their starting center. I understand that WM nearly won a title had prewitt knocked down his shots but at what point does that become not enough? Shaver and co has taken the Tribe into relevancy and has climbed the mountain, but has proven time and time again whatever level he coaches on he cannot reach the mountain top. This team may win a championship by sheer happenstance but I think it is time to take the next logical progression in coaching to someone who can take this team over the top. It is the CAA and a CAA on the downswing at that but at what point do you move on? Will a final appearance with two 7 footers, JP, Chase, LJ, Matt and co buy this staff another 5 years?

People here seem to be under the impression these guys came to William and Mary not able to play basketball. Burchfield was the best shooter from the time he stepped on the court as a freshman, we all saw it. Dixon literally never learned how to explode in the lane, otherwise he could have been one of the best players ever to come out of the CAA. Milon has seen hos percentage drop each year he has been here and perhaps the biggest indicator of this being a psychological thing is his drop in free throw shooting. Knight has not developed a post game to his capabilities and is nonexistent on the defensive boards, not up to his potential. It is really all about potential and this team has had the talent but does not play to its potential. I would say Thornton and Cohn did not even play to their potential. Thornton is without question a better player than wright foreman but do an extent, as good as he was, as great as he was, should have been given the opportunity to be better. Cohn was here for 4 years and we are saying he needs the perfect setup his senior year to reach his potential? That isnt something that should take 4 years for him to play the way we all knew he could play as soon as he showed up.

From what I read, hear, and see coaching is not a one shop fix all. We cannot be an outside oriented offense when our strength is the inside. You cannot treat all players as if they have the same psychological makeup. All puzzles cannot be put together in the exact same way. Pieces vary and so do players and opponents.

No one thought Cohn would be the best PG to ever play at W&M, or that Dixon had the potential to be one of the best players to ever come out of the CAA, the day they stepped on campus. What makes you suggest that they somehow didn’t progress as much as they should have / could have under other coaches? I mean Dixon was barely recruited out of high school. The coaches helped him grow into someone you would then criticize as not having one tool in his arsenal “or else” he could have been the best the CAA has ever seen. That says a lot about how much he developed when he was here!

(01-18-2019 06:58 PM)ColonelEbirt Wrote:  No one thought Cohn would be the best PG to ever play at W&M, or that Dixon had the potential to be one of the best players to ever come out of the CAA, the day they stepped on campus. What makes you suggest that they somehow didn’t progress as much as they should have / could have under other coaches? I mean Dixon was barely recruited out of high school. The coaches helped him grow into someone you would then criticize as not having one tool in his arsenal “or else” he could have been the best the CAA has ever seen. That says a lot about how much he developed when he was here!

I thought Dixon was very good as a Freshman, particularly on the defensive end. I didn't think he would become as good of a shooter as he did for us, but I thought he would be very good for us.

I also thought Cohn had all of the talent to be a great PG for us, but just seemed to not click in our offense until his senior year. His senior year, he was actually willing to shoot the ball, which forced teams to not just sit on the kick out passes which he usually did his first 2 years for us.

(01-18-2019 04:54 PM)TribalBeaver Wrote:  I by no means am against this staff.

This team may win a championship by sheer happenstance but I think it is time to take the next logical progression in coaching to someone who can take this team over the top. It is the CAA and a CAA on the downswing at that but at what point do you move on? Will a final appearance with two 7 footers, JP, Chase, LJ, Matt and co buy this staff another 5 years?

I figured as much, which is why my original response in this thread was a one sentence question asking how long you’ve been a Tribe fan.

You do know there is no practice facility.

You do know that practice times are shared with other sports, and are not consistent.

You do know that Marcus wanting to shoot hoops in non-practice hours, and the unavailability of facilities was an issue.

You do know that the summer program and foreign trips didn’t exist until alumni forced the issue recently.

You do know there are no video boards in the Hall.

You do know that a great T-R-I-B-E chant was lost, and when it was tried to be reintroduced, they couldn’t figure out how to do it right, and it’s still lost.

This hole that the school has gotten itself into is massive.

Tony has worked a miracle.

What coach is coming here to put this program “over the top” if the school lets Tony go? Dream on!

As for the allegation that Shaver can’t reach the mountaintop at whatever level he coaches, you smeared the man and you owe the man an apology:

http://hscathletics.com/information/hall...r?view=bio

The Tribe has good talent, better talent than i ever expected us to have, but only once in 2015, did we even potentially have the best talent. None of our opponents think we have the best talent and neither do our opponents' fans. Yet, we have the most wins over the last 10 years. The Tribe even won 3 straight tourney games, but did it in a year where it had to win 4. But don't let facts get in the way of your regression analysis and disappointment. Finally, actually go to the CAA tourney. Many of us went for years with no hope at all. In the last 5 years, the Tribe has won 7 times. I believe on March 13th that number will be 10. I don't care if only 15 other people believe it as long as those 15 wear Green and Gold. But, i know a lot of people have showed up in Baltimore and Charleston hoping to see it.

(01-18-2019 10:07 PM)nj alum Wrote:  As for the allegation that Shaver can’t reach the mountaintop at whatever level he coaches, you smeared the man and you owe the man an apology:

http://hscathletics.com/information/hall...r?view=bio

Your correction is right on point --- but I had to laugh about how Hampden-Sydney needs to update its bio on Tony. It says his middle son Austin is a sophomore at the University of Virginia. (I also doubt that his oldest son is still a pitcher in the Cubs organization).

Do not let past failures make you accept anything less than excellence. The biggest contributor to the illusion of the success that you all mention is the fact that half the CAA has up and left the conference.

I do not know much about the facilities but are the other CAA setups that great? I was under the impression we had the largest arena and most steady fanbase. Guessing recruiting at this level is also geared a bit more to academics if that was the point about facilities.

(01-18-2019 11:38 PM)TribalBeaver Wrote:  Do not let past failures make you accept anything less than excellence. The biggest contributor to the illusion of the success that you all mention is the fact that half the CAA has up and left the conference.

I do not know much about the facilities but are the other CAA setups that great? I was under the impression we had the largest arena and most steady fanbase. Guessing recruiting at this level is also geared a bit more to academics if that was the point about facilities.

Largest arena does not mean the nicest. Kaplan is old - I think the oldest arena in the conference other than Matthews Arena. Towson and Elon just built brand new arenas, and JMU's is on its way. They might be a few thousand seats smaller, but they're louder and have less empty seats. Our attendance is above average in the CAA, but not the top. Our academics are borderline a negative for recruiting, we can't recruit with quite as wide a net, and it makes bringing in transfers (especially JUCOs) harder.

W&M is a tough school to win games at, but I believe Coach Shaver will get us into the dance sooner rather than later.

(01-18-2019 11:38 PM)TribalBeaver Wrote:  Do not let past failures make you accept anything less than excellence. The biggest contributor to the illusion of the success that you all mention is the fact that half the CAA has up and left the conference.

I do not know much about the facilities but are the other CAA setups that great? I was under the impression we had the largest arena and most steady fanbase. Guessing recruiting at this level is also geared a bit more to academics if that was the point about facilities.

You are completely ignoring / failing to understand some institutional hurdles that are at play in the CAA.

Football. Five CAA schools have football; five do not.

Location. Boston, NYC, Philly, Charleston, and the beach vs. two burgs, Newark, Baltimore, and the interior of North Carolina (non-ACC school).

We do share frustration that this team hasn’t jelled. As a fan sitting in the cheap seats, we all question players and coaches, strategy and tactics. It’s the nature of the beast.

I’m glad you’re demanding excellence. Direct your fire at those above Tony, past and present, and direct your fire at the student body which does not support the program as it should.

Case in point. UVa had a game during Christmas break. Their pep band was there.

Funny, if the Hall became a true pit a la Blow Gym, the W’s and L’s might change a little.

Finally, the out of conference scheduling in college basketball, where the Duke’s of the world play all of their games at home or on neutral courts (save the occasional league challenge games) is an absolute travesty which is also reflected in the W’s and L’s as it’s tough to put together an attractive home schedule, which translates into less enthusiasm to buy tickets, which results in it’s tougher to generate a home atmosphere, etc., let alone the fact that the home team wins by a great percentage in college hoops.

The elephant in the room here, beside those being mentioned above is money. William & Mary runs its complete basketball program on between 20-25% of Coach K's reported basketball earnings of $8.98 million. Now I know Coach K is the highest paid coach nationally, but according to an article in The Street in Nov., Tony Bennett is the 14th highest paid coach at $3.0 million, Buzz Williams is 19th at $2.75 million, and Bruce Pearl is 27th at $2.52 million. I'm not sure how good the rankings are because Roy Williams is not list in the top 27.

I'd love to see us have Buzz Williams salary to to run our whole program, although that is less than the D1 average total cost to run a program.

With only 6200-6300 or so undergrads and a total enrollment of 8600-8700, student fees are limited vs other institutions. So if we are in a conference without a tv deal and limited to 1 NCAA pay-off per year, with a small student body, outside of a metropolitan area, and state limitations on how much of the student fees can be spent on athletics, where does the money come from?

Then throw in the handicaps of our facilities. This all takes moolah. Well the answer would seem to be from those alumni and fans engaged enough to care. A significant number of those people are here. How do you propose that we fix that TribalBeaver? If the answer is to hire a new coaching staff, where do we get a better bang for our buck? Have you even looked at our salaries in comparison to what our peers pay?

I highly, highly recommend the video of Matt Painter discussing Purdue’s recent success against IU, and the age of the players being a key (food for thought for those of you concerned about this year’s Tribe team):

https://mobile.twitter.com/AndrewPogar?r....162152%2F

And by the way, despite having beaten IU 7 out of the last 8 times, there’s a portion of the Boilermaker fan base that wants to run Painter out of town because he hasn’t made the Final Four. Sound familiar?

Coach Shaver is the best thing that has ever happened to Tribe basketball. He is a winner and, despite all the financial problems at W&M, produced marvelous teams and players to watch.