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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #21
RE: MAC Hockey
(01-17-2019 09:13 AM)kreed5120 Wrote:  
(01-17-2019 08:13 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(01-16-2019 09:07 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I live in a hockey mad state so I get the idea that hockey is cool and sexy and whatever. But adding hockey, especially men's hockey, seems like a poor financial and TitleX decision is today's day and age. There are many easier sports to add.
If you are in an area where people will turn out for a college hockey game, it can be a break even sport in operating costs (including Title IX offsets) ... similar to baseball in the best areas for college baseball.

It's the capital cost of the rink that is the killer for starting a program.

I know Miami spent ~$35 million on a ice rink 10 or so years back while Millett Hall hasn't been updated in what seems to be decades. Similarly, BGSU spent ~$30 mil on a basketball arena when their hockey rink was built in the 60s. I can't imagine it would be that much more costly to build an arena that could serve as both a basketball and hockey rink. Is the cost/man hours just too costly of switching back and forth between a hockey rink/basketball court that it's just more financially wise to keep two separate arenas?

I'm told that, in the 1970s, the State of Ohio had funded some campus sheets of ice, probably through the usual capital budget process. I'm not sure which ones. Seeing this, in 1978, BGSU began trying to persuade the state to retroactively award a $6 million grant for the BGSU Ice Arena, which the university had finished a few years earlier. (I think they got the money, too, although I'm not certain.)

As far as combination basketball/hockey facilities: Sure, that's possible, I guess. The thing is, though, if you have ice, people are going to want to skate. In Bowling Green, the BGSU hockey team is not the only tenant. The local high school, which has several state titles, has also used the ice, and I assume there are club teams, open skates, phys ed classes, and other stuff.

When Bowling Green was planning a new basketball arena, I don't think they ever seriously contemplated building a combination facility. Instead, donors have invested in improvements to what is now the Slater Family Ice Arena.

Another big issue in launching a program, as has been mentioned here, is Title IX. Kent State started a hockey program in the late 1980s or early 1990s, and had successfully talked themselves into the CCHA with Bowling Green, Miami, Western Michigan, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Michigan, Michigan State, etc. Then, suddenly, they dropped the program. I think Title IX was a factor there, although others closer to that program may remember more.

Most of Division I college hockey is either P5 schools or Division II schools that play up a division in the sport. It is a heavy lift for G5 schools.
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2019 11:10 AM by Schadenfreude.)
01-17-2019 09:31 AM
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Steve1981 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: MAC Hockey
Since there is not a generic scheduling football thread will post it here and related in the last sentence.

Guess you guys don't totally hate us as it seems to be rotating. We've been playing a MAC team every year and now it goes through 2025.

https://umassathletics.com/sports/2018/2...dules.aspx

Now to relate the post to the thread.
Guess who is #1 in college hockey. (-:
01-17-2019 05:58 PM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #23
RE: MAC Hockey
(01-17-2019 05:58 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  Guess who is #1 in college hockey. (-:

This is unprecedented, right? If it can't be one of us, good for you.
01-17-2019 06:27 PM
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kreed5120 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: MAC Hockey
Unless I missed something, I didn't think there was any animosity with UMass. I was under the impression the MAC offered them full membership, knowing full well they'd decline, that way we could get back to 12 football members.
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2019 08:15 PM by kreed5120.)
01-17-2019 08:14 PM
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Steve1981 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: MAC Hockey
There was Buffalo and a few unnamed programs that did not want to see us prosper in the MAC.
You will never see a home and home with Buffalo.

That said, Ohio was the most supportive and the first to offer home and home football games.
Generally assume teams willing to have home and home were supportive, all though assumed NIU was one of those unnamed teams but has finally scheduled us.
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01-17-2019 09:17 PM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #26
RE: MAC Hockey
(01-17-2019 09:17 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  There was Buffalo and a few unnamed programs that did not want to see us prosper in the MAC.
You will never see a home and home with Buffalo.

What was Buffalo's objection?
01-18-2019 06:37 AM
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Steve1981 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: MAC Hockey
They want to be ahead of us in getting an invite to the AAC.
01-18-2019 08:38 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #28
RE: MAC Hockey
(01-17-2019 08:14 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  Unless I missed something, I didn't think there was any animosity with UMass. I was under the impression the MAC offered them full membership, knowing full well they'd decline, that way we could get back to 12 football members.
AFAIU, the MAC fully expected that UMass would decline, but was prepared to go ahead if by some fluke UMass had accepted.

And now the MAC is ahead of the A10 in conference RPI ... maybe UMass should have accepted.

I'm not plugged into the grapevine, so I'm not saying that this is based on "inside info" or any such malarkey, but I would presume that Kent was not among the unnamed murky opponents of adding UMass.

(01-17-2019 09:13 AM)kreed5120 Wrote:  I know Miami spent ~$35 million on a ice rink 10 or so years back while Millett Hall hasn't been updated in what seems to be decades. Similarly, BGSU spent ~$30 mil on a basketball arena when their hockey rink was built in the 60s. I can't imagine it would be that much more costly to build an arena that could serve as both a basketball and hockey rink. Is the cost/man hours just too costly of switching back and forth between a hockey rink/basketball court that it's just more financially wise to keep two separate arenas?

One issue is where the team practices ... if there is an on campus rink of the right size to be configured like the home ice that makes it easier to use a dual purpose arena. Another issue is lock-in ... even if you don't put in the ice making equipment right away, you have to build in the option to have an ice rink when you build the arena if you want to add it later at lower cost, but often times when schools are building/expanding their arenas, they are scrimping to make their budget, and that flexibility can easily get taken out to cut costs.

A third issue is the logistics ... if rental of the arena for other uses has been budgeted into the business plan, non-university rentals can make it look good on paper, but the time of year that a college arena is more competitive against outdoor spaces is exactly the same time that BBall and hockey would be competing for arena use.

Finally, the Penn State plan is "wait until a wealthy benefactor wants to donate the money for the facility", and having a wealthy benefactor who wants to support the establishment of an ice hockey team who is synchronized with a second wealthy benefactor who wants to help out the Basketball team is not the kind of coincidence that happens very often.
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2019 09:46 AM by BruceMcF.)
01-18-2019 09:35 AM
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Steve1981 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: MAC Hockey
What UMass did was build a practice ring with refreshments and viewing area. Then for the sell job, making it open to the public and local hockey teams. It's across from the Mullins Center and most of the time see kids and parents coming out. It is heavily utilized as most hockey rings are.
01-18-2019 11:15 AM
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Pulltown Falcon Offline
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Post: #30
RE: MAC Hockey
(01-17-2019 09:31 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  When Bowling Green was planning a new basketball arena, I don't think they ever seriously contemplated building a combination facility. Instead, donors have

According to former AD Christopher, we did consider building a combination facility but decided not to pursue it after speaking with the folks from Ohio $tate. Evidently O$U officials indicated they wished they had added an ice arena to the Schottenstein Center instead of having the ice underneath their basketball floor.
01-18-2019 12:33 PM
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Steve1981 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: MAC Hockey
Yup, having it under the basketball court and having an Olympic size ring pushes the bb seats away from the court, hurting to some extent the atmosphere. Since it's our situation, we needed a practice ring that was posted above.
01-18-2019 12:43 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #32
RE: MAC Hockey
(01-18-2019 08:38 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  They want to be ahead of us in getting an invite to the AAC.

At this moment you've got to say its working for them where their FB and BB programs are.
01-18-2019 01:39 PM
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Steve1981 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: MAC Hockey
(01-18-2019 01:39 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(01-18-2019 08:38 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  They want to be ahead of us in getting an invite to the AAC.

At this moment you've got to say its working for them where their FB and BB programs are.

Have to agree, but things can always change. Hey, it only took a few years for our hockey coach to turn things and we've been number #1 a few times this year. Hockey East is tough and playing #8 now, weekend series, which is common to have back to back games.

Hearing from Arkansas State fans, feel very good about our new football HC Walt Bell.
We've started to schedule out so the feeling is, yes we'll be independent for years. On a positive note having Missouri play on campus in 2024 is great and this year BYU is playing on campus.
01-18-2019 07:19 PM
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Steve1981 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: MAC Hockey
(01-18-2019 01:39 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(01-18-2019 08:38 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  They want to be ahead of us in getting an invite to the AAC.

At this moment you've got to say its working for them where their FB and BB programs are.

There is an interesting take in the UMass twitter world.

Quote:Maroon Musket


@MaroonMusket
Maroon Musket Retweeted ZACHISGOD
Maybe there will be an opening in the MAC after the AAC offers Buffalo membership.

@Curry Hicks Sage


@CurryHicksSage

UMass becomes a MAC school with a national power Hockey East hockey program is probably as ideal a scenario as you can get at the moment but I cling to the delusion that we are two great Walt Bell seasons away from something bigger.

Anyhow do miss some of you guys and would be nice seeing UMass in the same conference as Ohio. The images from Penn State,which added Ohio and UMass to their schedules.

[Image: DxnjBZWXcAEJxBx.jpg]
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2019 10:57 PM by Steve1981.)
01-23-2019 10:48 PM
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kreed5120 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: MAC Hockey
I'm guessing UMass used that football game as leveraging to get the home and home for basketball. I know Kent has done similar things in the past, but I wish more MAC teams utilized it.
01-24-2019 07:28 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #36
RE: MAC Hockey
If you asked me, and you didn't, I think UMASS made the wrong decision when they declined the MAC's offer of full sport membership. I thought it then, and I still think it now.
01-24-2019 09:43 AM
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kreed5120 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: MAC Hockey
The UMass fans who would like to see the football program succeed at the FBS level would most likely agree with you. Especially now since the A10 seems to have dropped as a basketball conference and isn't that much better than the MAC in basketball compared to what it once was. There seems to be another contingent of UMass fans who would prefer dropping their football program back down to FCS level and instead focus their resources on trying to get their basketball program back to the level it was under Calipari in the early 90s.
01-24-2019 10:06 AM
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Bronco'14 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: MAC Hockey
(01-18-2019 01:39 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(01-18-2019 08:38 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  They want to be ahead of us in getting an invite to the AAC.

At this moment you've got to say its working for them where their FB and BB programs are.

All it takes is a bad or even average coaching hire when the current coaches leave for higher pay.

(01-17-2019 08:14 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  Unless I missed something, I didn't think there was any animosity with UMass. I was under the impression the MAC offered them full membership, knowing full well they'd decline, that way we could get back to 12 football members.

My animosity towards UMASS comes towards them thinking they can get an AAC invitation. That is laughable to me!

(01-16-2019 09:40 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(01-16-2019 06:41 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  
(01-16-2019 12:07 AM)inductchuck16 Wrote:  I don't follow the sport but is it surprising that the MAC has multiple teams ranked and even a couple in the top 10? Imagine if that happened in football. Toledo needs to invest in a varsity hockey program.

It's kind of an apples to oranges comparison. There are only 60 D1 schools competing and the B1G is the only P5 conference that sponsors the sport and even then they aren't pouring money into the sport like they do football. It's definitely a much more even playing ground to compete. It's also really costly to operate a program.

But hockey can pay its annual costs
If it gets 3000 per game.
But the upfront costs to start a team and get in a conference are very intimidating and costly.

Conferences require other sports like fb and mbb for their existence, even if they lose money. It rare for a potential hockey school to have an appropriate rink near campus and autobid conferences don’t require them.

The conference changes with the WCHA and CCHA should have theoretically brought down hockey barriers for Toledo, GVSU, Oakland, Buffalo, etc, but it hasn’t happened yet.

If Mankato and BGSU were to leave the WCHA for the NCHC, I could definitely see some of the barriers coming down as the WCHA would need to expand or leave the remaining schools in trouble.

(01-16-2019 12:07 AM)inductchuck16 Wrote:  I don't follow the sport but is it surprising that the MAC has multiple teams ranked and even a couple in the top 10?
Not at all. The only 'Power 5 schools' are the 6 Big 10 schools, Notre Dame, Arizona St, and Boston College. D1 hockey is primarily schools that aren't football powerhouse, and many are D2 in other sports. WMU and Miami-Ohio play in a very tough conference and have been pretty good for several years now, while BGSU has won a national championship.

(01-15-2019 10:05 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  If the NCHC adds Arizona State, I wonder if the MAC members would consider alternatives, given the additional cost.
My guess is WMU and Miami Ohio would campaign for the addition of a more-east school to balance ASU out, like BGSU.

(01-14-2019 04:29 PM)TalonsUpPuckDown Wrote:  
(01-14-2019 02:43 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  Your wins over WMU were huge for NCAA hopes. I'm hoping BGSU can string some more good years together so if the NCHC ever looks at expansion they're a good candidate. Need to hold on to Bergeron.

Nacho's sent out feelers to gauge our interest back when Mankato and ASU applied. Rumor was that if we wanted in they'd bring us and Mankato in as a package deal. The NCHC wasn't/isn't a fit for us so the advance was spurned which subsequently hosed Mankato.

So in actuality we ARE a good candidate, it's just that you're simply not good enough for us!!! 03-thumbsup (I'm kidding of course...)

So apps from Arizona St and Mankato, yet the NCHC was curious about BGSU's interest? Weird. So the NCHC was considering accepting MSU and BGSU, but not ASU.

(01-14-2019 08:29 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  Bowling Green is ranked 10th, but may slip after only getting a split at Michigan Tech. Our league isn't great; we need to win nearly every game from here on out to ensure we make the NCAA tournament for the first time in far too long.

The WCHA Champion is an auto-bid. You'll still have a decent shot.
(This post was last modified: 01-25-2019 11:25 PM by Bronco'14.)
01-25-2019 11:24 PM
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TalonsUpPuckDown Offline
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Post: #39
RE: MAC Hockey
(01-25-2019 11:24 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  
(01-15-2019 10:05 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  If the NCHC adds Arizona State, I wonder if the MAC members would consider alternatives, given the additional cost.
My guess is WMU and Miami Ohio would campaign for the addition of a more-east school to balance ASU out, like BGSU.

(01-14-2019 04:29 PM)TalonsUpPuckDown Wrote:  
(01-14-2019 02:43 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  Your wins over WMU were huge for NCAA hopes. I'm hoping BGSU can string some more good years together so if the NCHC ever looks at expansion they're a good candidate. Need to hold on to Bergeron.

Nacho's sent out feelers to gauge our interest back when Mankato and ASU applied. Rumor was that if we wanted in they'd bring us and Mankato in as a package deal. The NCHC wasn't/isn't a fit for us so the advance was spurned which subsequently hosed Mankato.

So in actuality we ARE a good candidate, it's just that you're simply not good enough for us!!! 03-thumbsup (I'm kidding of course...)

So apps from Arizona St and Mankato, yet the NCHC was curious about BGSU's interest? Weird. So the NCHC was considering accepting MSU and BGSU, but not ASU.

Remember this all went down when ASU had no tangible plans for a rink. And both easternmost Nacho teams wanted (and still want) BG to join.

(01-25-2019 11:24 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  
(01-14-2019 08:29 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  Bowling Green is ranked 10th, but may slip after only getting a split at Michigan Tech. Our league isn't great; we need to win nearly every game from here on out to ensure we make the NCAA tournament for the first time in far too long.

The WCHA Champion is an auto-bid. You'll still have a decent shot.

We're #11 for an at-large -- right behind you. We can lose 2 more regular season games and still be solid for an at-large (lose 3 and we start needing help). Since we swept our series with you, every win you lock down helps our cause so GO BRONCOS!

What should make folks nervous is that Lake Superior is currently sitting at #19 and could make a run for the auto bid or even an at-large if they win 7 out of 9. That would put 3 WCHA teams in the dance. While there are some really crappy teams in our league, overall our league is not as crappy as people make it out to be.
01-26-2019 12:35 AM
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