I know this would cost money, but I would love to see more football/basketball combos for arenas in the MAC. Hopefully would quiet the attendance argument about it being.....too cold or whatever else excuse there is.

BTW, ESPN, midweek games, ESPN3, etc. are all part of the same deal.

We also got ESPN3 out of the last TV deal.

(12-27-2018 07:37 AM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  The money can't make up for shortcomings it causes at the live gate. If it changes attendance by 5k fans showing up on a saturday vs. on a tuesday, that can be a healthy chunk of change.

It almost certainly does make up for it, though.

Assume $20 per ticket (and let's be honest, the true figure is probably more like $10 per ticket), we are talking about a theoretical $100,000 lost per weeknight game. Two weeknight home games means a theoretical loss of $200,000.

But ESPN is doling out close to $1 million per program. And MAC programs aren't really getting $20 per ticket, so the real cost is less. Finally: I'm not ready to concede that programs are really losing 5,000 per game in November because of weeknight MACtion. Attendance was always pretty shoddy in most of the MAC in November, even on Saturdays.

And none of this quantifies the exposure the MAC gets through weeknight MACtion that it simply wouldn't be getting without this ESPN contract. This exposure is an important reason the MAC pursues FBS football.

(12-27-2018 10:42 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 07:37 AM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  The money can't make up for shortcomings it causes at the live gate. If it changes attendance by 5k fans showing up on a saturday vs. on a tuesday, that can be a healthy chunk of change.

It almost certainly does make up for it, though.

Assume $20 per ticket (and let's be honest, the true figure is probably more like $10 per ticket), we are talking about a theoretical $100,000 lost per weeknight game. Two weeknight home games means a theoretical loss of $200,000.

But ESPN is doling out close to $1 million per program. And MAC programs aren't really getting $20 per ticket, so the real cost is less. Finally: I'm not ready to concede that programs are really losing 5,000 per game in November because of weeknight MACtion. Attendance was always pretty shoddy in most of the MAC in November, even on Saturdays.

And none of this quantifies the exposure the MAC gets through weeknight MACtion that it simply wouldn't be getting without this ESPN contract. This exposure is an important reason the MAC pursues FBS football.

And what has this exposure done for the MAC schools so far?

Quote:But ESPN is doling out close to $1 million per program. And MAC programs aren't really getting $20 per ticket, so the real cost is less.

I agree....

Quote:Finally: I'm not ready to concede that programs are really losing 5,000 per game in November because of weeknight MACtion. Attendance was always pretty shoddy in most of the MAC in November, even on Saturdays.

It's a Yes and No. Depends on the program. EMU? No. Especially if playing on Saturday in the shadow of UM.

But say, WMU/CMU playing on a Saturday VS say, Wednesday night in the cold -- YES. More than 5k. So YMMV.

It's easy to see conditions change what would be 18k showing up to 13k or less. Change a Saturday afternoon in the colder months in sunnier weather VS Tues/Wed at night in the cold... when you can watch it on TV -- no brainer that it'd drop fast. And importantly, it'd hold back getting attendance Up.

The counter to this would be what the commissioner said: During the week games in Nov have been had. Okay, sure. Thursday night games. They will draw more folks in though than Tues/Wed though. But they won't be as big as Saturday afternoon or evenings either.

In the end -- there IS a notable drop in attendance when going Tues/Wed VS mostly Saturday with some Thursdays. Especially when you're putting most of them on CBS Sports & ESPN/ESPN2/ESPNU, and in colder months on Tues/Wed you'd rather watch it on TV at night even if you "only" lived 25 minutes away.

But your point that the tickets averaging more like $10 of income vs $20, I agree with.

For games that-would get good attendance on Sat, but Wed night on ESPN2 (it's not Akron vs Kent) -- they get dinged. Let's say it loses 7k @ $14 a pop -- that's $98k lost for that 1 game. Each team loses out on $49k for that game. Are you saying the baseline is $1m they get for all those weekday games (thus as long as it doesn't total to $1m, it's fine)?

If so, I can understand immediate gains. But exposure shows fewer fans than if it was a Saturday 12PM - 7PM game. BUT how much fewer? A certain Visual line drawn where it can Seem like there's "barely enough" VS "omg it's dead there"... which would vary from team to team (EMU vs Ohio).

(12-27-2018 11:53 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  And what has this exposure done for the MAC schools so far?

It makes the presidents happy by boosting visibility and prestige. This is kind of the point of these investments in FBS football.

The MAC is alive because of weeknight games period

No way Kent or EMU or Akron have a football program without the influx of cash from ESPN

The league would cease to exist


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(12-27-2018 12:24 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 11:53 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  And what has this exposure done for the MAC schools so far?

It makes the presidents happy by boosting visibility and prestige. This is kind of the point of these investments in FBS football.

Just wonder how much prestige they get out of presenting an almost completely empty stadium with announcers that spend half the time talking about an upcoming game.

And are there any numbers that show that the exposure helps?

(12-27-2018 02:05 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 12:24 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 11:53 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  And what has this exposure done for the MAC schools so far?

It makes the presidents happy by boosting visibility and prestige. This is kind of the point of these investments in FBS football.

Just wonder how much prestige they get out of presenting an almost completely empty stadium with announcers that spend half the time talking about an upcoming game.

And are there any numbers that show that the exposure helps?

How much do you think it would cost to buy 3 hours worth of advertising during prime time on a station as popular as ESPN? There are teenage kids who have only heard of schools like Akron or WMU because of athletics.

(12-27-2018 02:34 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 02:05 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 12:24 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  

(12-27-2018 11:53 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  And what has this exposure done for the MAC schools so far?

It makes the presidents happy by boosting visibility and prestige. This is kind of the point of these investments in FBS football.

Just wonder how much prestige they get out of presenting an almost completely empty stadium with announcers that spend half the time talking about an upcoming game.

And are there any numbers that show that the exposure helps?

How much do you think it would cost to buy 3 hours worth of advertising during prime time on a station as popular as ESPN? There are teenage kids who have only heard of schools like Akron or WMU because of athletics.

They're never on ESPN. At best they're on ESPN2 and much more likely ESPNU, or ESPN+.

So we say screw ESPN and play all the games on Saturday without the ESPN money and TV. How will that help recruiting and the quality of play? The MAC would be invisible except for an occasional OOC game on BTN or CBSSN.

How much were they on TV in 2003?

(12-27-2018 04:44 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  How much were they on TV in 2003?

That’s pretty much irrelevant to the media landscape in 2019. It’s all relative to how much other conferences are available to view. Without a media deal like ESPN—which pays the MAC well compared to some other G5 conferences, the MAC would disappear from the national radar. How would that improve the MAC, given that there would be less money conference-wide to support football? It would become a conference for die-hard MAC fans only. And we know how many of those there are

Its already a conference for hard core MAC fans only. No one else goes to the games and only a small number watch on TV. Based on the ratings, almost no one else watches either.

(12-27-2018 07:18 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Its already a conference for hard core MAC fans only. No one else goes to the games and only a small number watch on TV. Based on the ratings, almost no one else watches either.

So on one side, there are those that see value in less tv exposure for more Saturdays, and on the other, see value in tv exposure for mid-week games.

Neither probably makes much difference in recruiting. If we take that completely out of the equation, which side is more preferable?

I'll take the tv publicity over the game day Saturday "experience". Crowds are going to be light for most MAC schools in November. #MACTION does more for the MAC than the loss of those Saturdays for most schools. Even if you argue that "not that many" are watching, it's not only about the amount of people but the "who" is watching that could be important. A large company may bring their advertising dollars to the MAC (or a specific school) based on what they saw on a MACTION broadcast.

We'll never know. Bottom line, for any business, if the benefits doesn't outweigh the cost, you don't keep doing it. The fact that MACTION has been ongoing for a while is an indicator that it has benefits to the conference.

The reason it's a November-mostly-no-Saturday thing is because that's when the big & important B1G games are on, and the non-MAC fans + the mild MAC fans are going to in the very least be focused on those for the most part.

Would I want WMU vs CMU going on even close to the time MSU vs UM is going on? No.

Are people going to watch Ohio State vs Iowa, or a decent Ohio vs CMU game? Answer's pretty clear.

Tues/Wed may not be the most ideal, but you do want the MAC games in the meat of conference season separated from the B1G, for the most part.

The recruiting argument is never going to be won by either side.

Personally I don't believe NIU goes to the Orange Bowl or WMU hosts Gameday without the deal, for a couple examples. Also the attendance hit is being very overblown as people don't turn out in the MAC when it's cold anyway unless their team is really good.

The benefits are fading though, as cord cutting gets more popular and also more conferences are playing midweek.

(12-25-2018 09:45 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  Steinbrecher is aware the MAC is 2-16 over the last 3 years in bowl games, right? I'm not buying mid-week games help recruiting.

kreed5120 is aware that bowl games are exhibition games, right? And exhibition games that are sometimes true neutral site games but often quasi-away games?

If you are selling bowl games being the best barometer of recruiting, I'm not buying.

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(12-27-2018 07:59 AM)thanksjim Wrote:  I know this would cost money, but I would love to see more football/basketball combos for arenas in the MAC. Hopefully would quiet the attendance argument about it being.....too cold or whatever else excuse there is.

It'd also be great if ifs and buts were candies and nuts ... then we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

Seriously, if money were to fall out of the sky to allow Kent to build a football/BBall dome. Playing all of their BBall games in a cavernous arena because it's in a combo dome is surrendering too much home court advantage in advance.

Unfortunately I believe the money is going to continue to be on linear TV and the Midweek package is the MAC's contribution to the linear landscape.

Bowls are now set up where the MAC had an appearance a day on ESPN the week before Christmas. Not ESPN2 or CBSSN but on ESPN in every bar in the country.

Putting football aside, basketball scheduling in the MAC has been adjusted away from its Wednesday-Saturday format to get more national TV games. If basketball were to go all to ESPN+ game times could be set to accommodate fans attending in person again.

If I had to pick my poison, I'd rather poison FB since this G5 thing is as good as it gets right now and keeps us in the conversation for more TV money down the road.

Remember its not just the TV money the MAC receives as part of its linear deal with ESPN. Its also the money from the CFP which combined was 32 million for the MAC for the season following WMU's Cotton Bowl.

(12-29-2018 04:33 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(12-25-2018 09:45 PM)kreed5120 Wrote:  Steinbrecher is aware the MAC is 2-16 over the last 3 years in bowl games, right? I'm not buying mid-week games help recruiting.

kreed5120 is aware that bowl games are exhibition games, right? And exhibition games that are sometimes true neutral site games but often quasi-away games?

If you are selling bowl games being the best barometer of recruiting, I'm not buying.

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(12-27-2018 07:59 AM)thanksjim Wrote:  I know this would cost money, but I would love to see more football/basketball combos for arenas in the MAC. Hopefully would quiet the attendance argument about it being.....too cold or whatever else excuse there is.

It'd also be great if ifs and buts were candies and nuts ... then we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

Seriously, if money were to fall out of the sky to allow Kent to build a football/BBall dome. Playing all of their BBall games in a cavernous arena because it's in a combo dome is surrendering too much home court advantage in advance.

Say whatever you want, but going 2-16 against your G5 peers isn't a good look. You act as though MAC coaches are telling their players before games that it doesn't matter if we win or lose as these are just exhibitions. That's not the case. MAC coaches are prepping their teams in an effort to win, but are failing miserably.