(11-11-2018 10:21 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(11-11-2018 07:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  If we could join those leagues it might work. But I'm not sure playing every sport in a different league is a great idea. And the bigger problem is that we aren't really good enough in any of those sports to attract interest now.

I can't remember the specifics, but UT does sailing in a league other than the B12 and Fla State in WLAX and others.
Is this ideal? Of course not... and it needs to be investigated... I'm just saying we can't summarily dismiss it.

Quote:As I've said, that's 15 teams with a hole on the same weekend. We can only play one of them, and that leave 3-4 more weekends in November and 4-5 in October, where there are far fewer opportunities. And we're not the only ones wanting those slots.

All I did was select this year... I didn't cherry pick... We play 13 games this year and are done in just 2 weekends. October has tons of bye weeks and non-conference games... and as you note, we only need one of them. Last weekend had 2 byes in the top 25 and I'm sure many non-conference games as well. I'll look if I need to, but do I really? This weekend there are 16. To think there would be 16 week 10 and none week 9 seems unlikely... and if it is? SO what? Take a bye week the first weekend of November and another in October. The final weekend Liberty and NMSU play each other for the second time, so we play one one week, and one the next. That puts us a week beyond this years schedule... potentially 14 games.... AND we had a bye week in September THIS year??
We could have had 3 bye weeks and STILL get 12 games.
I understand what you're saying... but the idea that it 'can't be done' is demonstrably untrue. There are a significant number of unusual pairings and bye weeks all year long.

I realize you didn't cherry pick. But that is the situation every year. There are a bunch more opportunities this coming weekend because that's the weekend SEC schools all play a warmup game for their big rivalry games the following weekend. So there will always be 14 opportunities this weekend. But not the same any other weekend. When schools start playing conference games, they don't like distractions. And when they ave a bye week, they want to rest and recover, not schedule a game in that slot.

I really think our scheduling opportunities as an independent would be extremely limited in October and November.

The fact that BYU, NMSU, UMASS, and Liberty are all looking for conference homes, tells me that independence is hell. It's not a realistic option.
Army is an attractive opponent, but they have Eastern Michigan, Lafayette, San Jose State, Buffalo, Miami Ohio, and Colgate on their schedule. Rice is much better off in a CUSA without crossover games, the MWC, or a newly created regional conference. Independence is the last option.

Any thoughts on my suggestion that Rice try to form a loose confederacy, rather than true independence? this might involve trying to attract a few others out of their conferences if it helped solve some of the scheduling issues.

(11-12-2018 05:21 PM)mrbig Wrote:  Any thoughts on my suggestion that Rice try to form a loose confederacy, rather than true independence? this might involve trying to attract a few others out of their conferences if it helped solve some of the scheduling issues.

What "few others"?

The Confederacy of Dunces, if one believes how many teams don't want to be independent after all.

(11-12-2018 05:21 PM)mrbig Wrote:  Any thoughts on my suggestion that Rice try to form a loose confederacy, rather than true independence? this might involve trying to attract a few others out of their conferences if it helped solve some of the scheduling issues.

This has real merit if Rice had national appeal. We'll never have that. As it is, we're really nothing but an afterthought right here in TX. BYU and Notre Dame can pull that off. They're very desirable commodities. If I were the MWC, I might force BYU's hand soon. They need to be full members, or not associated at all with the conference. BYU needs to be in the MWC. So does Rice.

If nothing else, our division should split. That's seven schools right there for a conference. If UAB doesn't want to come aboard, replace them with someone else. Free up space on these schedules for out-of-conference rivals. We know who they are. Flexibility. Add the AAC private schools if you want. That conference could be B12 backfill someday. No one may like having them more than our conference of 7 or so. Create that kind of possibility. Be proactive as possible. They're are better possibilities out there that don't involve power conferences.

(11-12-2018 08:55 AM)Ourland Wrote:  The fact that BYU, NMSU, UMASS, and Liberty are all looking for conference homes, tells me that independence is hell. It's not a realistic option.
Army is an attractive opponent, but they have Eastern Michigan, Lafayette, San Jose State, Buffalo, Miami Ohio, and Colgate on their schedule. Rice is much better off in a CUSA without crossover games, the MWC, or a newly created regional conference. Independence is the last option.

Are you suggesting that CUSA wouldn't take Army or BYU? That tells you that we're in hell already.... you're just comparing the various circles.

The ONLY way we should stay in CUSA is the elimination of the crossovers AND control of our marketing

(11-16-2018 12:27 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(11-12-2018 08:55 AM)Ourland Wrote:  The fact that BYU, NMSU, UMASS, and Liberty are all looking for conference homes, tells me that independence is hell. It's not a realistic option.
Army is an attractive opponent, but they have Eastern Michigan, Lafayette, San Jose State, Buffalo, Miami Ohio, and Colgate on their schedule. Rice is much better off in a CUSA without crossover games, the MWC, or a newly created regional conference. Independence is the last option.

Are you suggesting that CUSA wouldn't take Army or BYU? That tells you that we're in hell already.... you're just comparing the various circles.
The ONLY way we should stay in CUSA is the elimination of the crossovers AND control of our marketing

Army and BYU wouldn't take CUSA, obviously. But that's probably what they could get offered. Army could join Navy in the American, but that would mess up the Army-Navy game timing. BYU seems a natural to rejoin Mountain West, but there may be too much bad blood there. American would also seem an obvious fit for BYU. Maybe BYU and Rice to American?

I think both CUSA and SunBelt would be better off if they did a geographic split. Basically the two west divisions merge into one conference and the two east divisions merge into a separate conference. Something like this (geography altered a bit to keep 6 schools from each old conference together in a new conferences to keep NCAA basketball automatic slot):

NEW CUSA (9 former CUSA, 6 former SunBelt, 1 new)

EAST DIVISION
Alabama-Birmingham-CUSA
Arkansas State-SB
Florida Atlantic-CUSA
Florida International-CUSA
Louisiana-Lafayette-SB
Louisiana-Monroe-SB
Southern Miss-CUSA
Arkansas-Little Rock-SB (no football for now)

WEST DIVISION
Louisiana Tech-CUSA
North Texas-CUSA
Rice-CUSA
Texas-El Paso-CUSA
Texas-San Antonio-CUSA
Texas State-SB
Texas-Arlington-SB (no football for now)
Add: New Mexico State

Travel pairs would be FAU-FIU, Arkansas State-UALR, UAB-Southern Miss, and LaLa-ULM in east, and UTEP-NMSU, UTA-UNT, UTSA-Texas State, and Rice-LaTech in west.

NEW SUNBELT (6 former SunBelt, 5 former CUSA, 1 new)

NORTH DIVISION
Appalachian State-SB
Marshall-CUSA
Middle Tennessee-CUSA
Old Dominion-CUSA
Western Kentucky-CUSA
Add: Liberty

SOUTH DIVISION
Charlotte-CUSA
Coastal Carolina-SB
Georgia Southern-SB
Georgia State-SB
South Alabama-SB
Troy-SB

Travel pairs woudl be Liberty-ODU, App State-Marshall, and MidTenn-WestKy in North, and Charlotte-Coastal, South Alabama-Troy, and GaSouthern-GaState in South.

WEST CONFERENCE (7 per division for football, 8 for other sports) - football plays every team in division plus 2 in other division (8 conference games); basketball plays every team in division home and home plus 1 game against 4 teams in other division (18 conference games).

EAST CONFERENCE (6 per division) - football plays every other team in division plus 3 in other division (8 conference games); basketball plays every team in division home and home, plus 1 game against every team in other division (16 conference games).

For football we'd have 4 conference games against teams in Texas and one more against a long-term CUSA opponent. Basketball we'd add a 5th opponent in Texas. NMSU will be the furthest away in our division. This would give us a chance to build some regional rivalries, and it would definitely help with travel costs, particularly with the travel pairs.

OK, none of them are anywhere close to academic peers (closest is probably UAB because of med school), but there aren't any academic peers available, and this does seem to be about the best sorting of athletic peers available.

(11-16-2018 10:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  WEST DIVISION
Louisiana Tech-CUSA
North Texas-CUSA
Rice-CUSA
Texas-El Paso-CUSA
Texas-San Antonio-CUSA
Texas State-SB
Texas-Arlington-SB (no football for now)
Add: New Mexico State

Travel pairs would be FAU-FIU, Arkansas State-UALR, UAB-Southern Miss, and LaLa-ULM in east, and UTEP-NMSU, UTA-UNT, UTSA-Texas State, and Rice-LaTech in west.

Better than the current arrangement. At least this would make geographic sense, even though peer institutions would be absent. Rice being in the same conference as ODU, Marshall, WKU, and MTSU (and really the florida schools as well) makes so little sense.

(11-16-2018 10:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  For football we'd have 4 conference games against teams in Texas and one more against a long-term CUSA opponent. Basketball we'd add a 5th opponent in Texas. NMSU will be the furthest away in our division. This would give us a chance to build some regional rivalries, and it would definitely help with travel costs, particularly with the travel pairs.

OK, none of them are anywhere close to academic peers (closest is probably UAB because of med school), but there aren't any academic peers available, and this does seem to be about the best sorting of athletic peers available.

While certainly a well thought out position, I really don't see any significant advantages here. What we save in travel costs is probably offset by even GREATER depletion of our reputation and conference income. If regional rivalries were to develop, why would they be any greater by adding UTA or NMSU than they are without them?

I'd much prefer we scale back rather than expand CUSA... eliminate the cross-over and add ANY of those teams you mentioned as non-conference games... a few of which probably wouldn't require a return trip. Much of what you describe could be done without adding those schools. Create alliances between the belt and CUSA for the sports that play 15+ games per season that CAN spill over into other sports if rivalries begin to develop... but the minute you're in a conference, you lose control.

Seriously, if we're not taking advantage of and exploiting our academic superiority and the reputation of our university, then how will we EVER out-recruit any of our conference mates? We're a vastly smaller school with a student body that isn't all that interested in athletics and some won't understand why you're even there... that will put substantially more demands on your time than our competition... but come play for us anyway?

If one of the issues we're having is 'guilt by association' then why are we EXPANDING that association rather than scaling it back? We're reaching down, not up... and by reaching down, we reduce our ability to reach up because there are fewer holes to fit those 'up' schools in to.

(11-16-2018 12:27 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(11-12-2018 08:55 AM)Ourland Wrote:  The fact that BYU, NMSU, UMASS, and Liberty are all looking for conference homes, tells me that independence is hell. It's not a realistic option.
Army is an attractive opponent, but they have Eastern Michigan, Lafayette, San Jose State, Buffalo, Miami Ohio, and Colgate on their schedule. Rice is much better off in a CUSA without crossover games, the MWC, or a newly created regional conference. Independence is the last option.

Are you suggesting that CUSA wouldn't take Army or BYU? That tells you that we're in hell already.... you're just comparing the various circles.

The ONLY way we should stay in CUSA is the elimination of the crossovers AND control of our marketing

Yeah, I've been an advocate of eliminating all the crossover games as well. There are enough Sun Belt and start-up programs in our own region to schedule. Geographically, we need something similar to the MAC, but smaller. But as bad as it is, I'd still take CUSA over independence any day.

(11-16-2018 11:30 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 10:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  WEST DIVISION
Louisiana Tech-CUSA
North Texas-CUSA
Rice-CUSA
Texas-El Paso-CUSA
Texas-San Antonio-CUSA
Texas State-SB
Texas-Arlington-SB (no football for now)
Add: New Mexico State

Travel pairs would be FAU-FIU, Arkansas State-UALR, UAB-Southern Miss, and LaLa-ULM in east, and UTEP-NMSU, UTA-UNT, UTSA-Texas State, and Rice-LaTech in west.

Better than the current arrangement. At least this would make geographic sense, even though peer institutions would be absent. Rice being in the same conference as ODU, Marshall, WKU, and MTSU (and really the florida schools as well) makes so little sense.

+1

(11-16-2018 11:30 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 10:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  WEST DIVISION
Louisiana Tech-CUSA
North Texas-CUSA
Rice-CUSA
Texas-El Paso-CUSA
Texas-San Antonio-CUSA
Texas State-SB
Texas-Arlington-SB (no football for now)
Add: New Mexico State

Travel pairs would be FAU-FIU, Arkansas State-UALR, UAB-Southern Miss, and LaLa-ULM in east, and UTEP-NMSU, UTA-UNT, UTSA-Texas State, and Rice-LaTech in west.

Better than the current arrangement. At least this would make geographic sense, even though peer institutions would be absent. Rice being in the same conference as ODU, Marshall, WKU, and MTSU (and really the florida schools as well) makes so little sense.

There aren't any peer institutions. There just aren't. So trying to associate with peer institutions is a forlorn hope. If we were in Vermont, we'd have the Ivy League. But we aren't and we don't. So the only thing to do is make the best of what we have.

I put the Florida schools in the New CUSA group rather than the New SunBelt, because you have to retain at least 6 schools to keep your NCAA basketball automatic bid (or at least that used to be the rule, haven't read it lately). And it gets complicated to try to maintain travel pairs and do that, unless you keep the Florida schools on the CUSA side. And that does give New CUSA media exposure in Miami, where New SunBelt has Atlanta, so that makes some sense.

(11-10-2018 04:57 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-10-2018 04:10 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(11-09-2018 03:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't really understand how going 1-11 as an independent is better than going 1-11 as a member of CUSA.
That's the real problem. We've got to get better--and a lot better--on the field before any of this matters.

If it would be easier to recruit to a 1-11 team that plays a schedule at 3-4 G5 schools plus a couple of academies, and the remainder local Texas schools, then presumably you could get to be a 4-6 to 6-4 team faster that way than you might be able to in CUSA.

I think all of these independent scenarios are assuming a schedule that we can't do. Notre Dame is probably the most appealing independent in the country, and they choose to get 3 games a year out of a scheduling arrangement with the ACC. I'd like to think those scheduling scenarios are possible. But I don't.

https://www.newsadvance.com/sports/liber...185ea.html

Are we as attractive as Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va?

They have games with the following over the next 5-7 years:
Syracuse (H&A)
BYU (H&A)
Virginia (H&A)
Vir. Tech (H&A)
NC St.
Ole Miss
Army (H&A)
Wake Forest (H&A)
Duke (H&A)
UNC (H&A)

Ian McCaw, formerly of Baylor, is their AD. He is getting it done

(02-15-2019 10:31 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(11-10-2018 04:57 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-10-2018 04:10 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(11-09-2018 03:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't really understand how going 1-11 as an independent is better than going 1-11 as a member of CUSA.
That's the real problem. We've got to get better--and a lot better--on the field before any of this matters.

If it would be easier to recruit to a 1-11 team that plays a schedule at 3-4 G5 schools plus a couple of academies, and the remainder local Texas schools, then presumably you could get to be a 4-6 to 6-4 team faster that way than you might be able to in CUSA.

I think all of these independent scenarios are assuming a schedule that we can't do. Notre Dame is probably the most appealing independent in the country, and they choose to get 3 games a year out of a scheduling arrangement with the ACC. I'd like to think those scheduling scenarios are possible. But I don't.

https://www.newsadvance.com/sports/liber...185ea.html

Are we as attractive as Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va?

They have games with the following over the next 5-7 years:
Syracuse (H&A)
BYU (H&A)
Virginia (H&A)
Vir. Tech (H&A)
NC St.
Ole Miss
Army (H&A)
Wake Forest (H&A)
Duke (H&A)
UNC (H&A)

Ian McCaw, formerly of Baylor, is their AD. He is getting it done

That's a pretty low bar.

(02-15-2019 10:41 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(02-15-2019 10:31 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(11-10-2018 04:57 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-10-2018 04:10 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(11-09-2018 03:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't really understand how going 1-11 as an independent is better than going 1-11 as a member of CUSA.
That's the real problem. We've got to get better--and a lot better--on the field before any of this matters.

If it would be easier to recruit to a 1-11 team that plays a schedule at 3-4 G5 schools plus a couple of academies, and the remainder local Texas schools, then presumably you could get to be a 4-6 to 6-4 team faster that way than you might be able to in CUSA.

I think all of these independent scenarios are assuming a schedule that we can't do. Notre Dame is probably the most appealing independent in the country, and they choose to get 3 games a year out of a scheduling arrangement with the ACC. I'd like to think those scheduling scenarios are possible. But I don't.

https://www.newsadvance.com/sports/liber...185ea.html

Are we as attractive as Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va?

They have games with the following over the next 5-7 years:
Syracuse (H&A)
BYU (H&A)
Virginia (H&A)
Vir. Tech (H&A)
NC St.
Ole Miss
Army (H&A)
Wake Forest (H&A)
Duke (H&A)
UNC (H&A)

Ian McCaw, formerly of Baylor, is their AD. He is getting it done

That's a pretty low bar.

okay- over the next 2 years:
Syracuse (H&A)
BYU (H&A)
Virginia (H&A)
Vir. Tech (H&A)
NC St.

over the next 3 years:
Syracuse (H&A)
BYU (H&A)
Virginia (H&A)
Vir. Tech (H&A)
NC St.
Ole Miss
Army (H&A)

over the next 4 years:
Syracuse (H&A)
BYU (H&A)
Virginia (H&A)
Vir. Tech (H&A)
NC St.
Ole Miss
Army (H&A)
Wake Forest (H&A)

https://www.liberty.edu/flames/index.cfm?PID=38108

(02-15-2019 10:31 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(11-10-2018 04:57 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-10-2018 04:10 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(11-09-2018 03:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't really understand how going 1-11 as an independent is better than going 1-11 as a member of CUSA.
That's the real problem. We've got to get better--and a lot better--on the field before any of this matters.

If it would be easier to recruit to a 1-11 team that plays a schedule at 3-4 G5 schools plus a couple of academies, and the remainder local Texas schools, then presumably you could get to be a 4-6 to 6-4 team faster that way than you might be able to in CUSA.

I think all of these independent scenarios are assuming a schedule that we can't do. Notre Dame is probably the most appealing independent in the country, and they choose to get 3 games a year out of a scheduling arrangement with the ACC. I'd like to think those scheduling scenarios are possible. But I don't.

https://www.newsadvance.com/sports/liber...185ea.html

Are we as attractive as Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va?

They have games with the following over the next 5-7 years:
Syracuse (H&A)
BYU (H&A)
Virginia (H&A)
Vir. Tech (H&A)
NC St.
Ole Miss
Army (H&A)
Wake Forest (H&A)
Duke (H&A)
UNC (H&A)

Ian McCaw, formerly of Baylor, is their AD. He is getting it done

Approximately 3 games per year

(02-15-2019 10:50 AM)NYNightOwl Wrote:  

(02-15-2019 10:31 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(11-10-2018 04:57 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-10-2018 04:10 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(11-09-2018 03:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't really understand how going 1-11 as an independent is better than going 1-11 as a member of CUSA.
That's the real problem. We've got to get better--and a lot better--on the field before any of this matters.

If it would be easier to recruit to a 1-11 team that plays a schedule at 3-4 G5 schools plus a couple of academies, and the remainder local Texas schools, then presumably you could get to be a 4-6 to 6-4 team faster that way than you might be able to in CUSA.

I think all of these independent scenarios are assuming a schedule that we can't do. Notre Dame is probably the most appealing independent in the country, and they choose to get 3 games a year out of a scheduling arrangement with the ACC. I'd like to think those scheduling scenarios are possible. But I don't.

https://www.newsadvance.com/sports/liber...185ea.html

Are we as attractive as Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va?

They have games with the following over the next 5-7 years:
Syracuse (H&A)
BYU (H&A)
Virginia (H&A)
Vir. Tech (H&A)
NC St.
Ole Miss
Army (H&A)
Wake Forest (H&A)
Duke (H&A)
UNC (H&A)

Ian McCaw, formerly of Baylor, is their AD. He is getting it done

Approximately 3 games per year

Right- about 3 games a year (including some at home) with power 5 or national opponents. Added to the other 9 games, which are with a mixture of CUSA, AAC, MAC, and FCS. Plus it's Liberty- there are likely some schools that wouldn't schedule them for political/religious reasons and they are on the east coast, so not geographically convenient for half the country. I think Virginia is a pretty good state for recruiting, but Lynchburg is not Houston.


For clarity- this is not necessarily advocating independence (though I think we should explore it). Just pointing out that the fears about scheduling are overblown (assuming an aggressive AD)

(02-15-2019 10:41 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(02-15-2019 10:31 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  

(11-10-2018 04:57 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-10-2018 04:10 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(11-09-2018 03:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't really understand how going 1-11 as an independent is better than going 1-11 as a member of CUSA.
That's the real problem. We've got to get better--and a lot better--on the field before any of this matters.

If it would be easier to recruit to a 1-11 team that plays a schedule at 3-4 G5 schools plus a couple of academies, and the remainder local Texas schools, then presumably you could get to be a 4-6 to 6-4 team faster that way than you might be able to in CUSA.

I think all of these independent scenarios are assuming a schedule that we can't do. Notre Dame is probably the most appealing independent in the country, and they choose to get 3 games a year out of a scheduling arrangement with the ACC. I'd like to think those scheduling scenarios are possible. But I don't.

https://www.newsadvance.com/sports/liber...185ea.html

Are we as attractive as Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va?

They have games with the following over the next 5-7 years:
Syracuse (H&A)
BYU (H&A)
Virginia (H&A)
Vir. Tech (H&A)
NC St.
Ole Miss
Army (H&A)
Wake Forest (H&A)
Duke (H&A)
UNC (H&A)

Ian McCaw, formerly of Baylor, is their AD. He is getting it done

That's a pretty low bar.

You must mean the bar of the goalposts you just moved . . . again?

I mean, we've gone from "no P5 would play Rice as an independent" to "no P5 would play Rice after September" to "we'd be lucky to get one P5 a year to play us" to "they'd all be 2-for-1s or 3-for-1s" . . .