(08-29-2018 12:59 AM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(08-28-2018 10:19 PM)Pony94 Wrote:  

(08-28-2018 10:11 PM)P5PACSEC Wrote:  Can the Big 12 kick TCU and Baylor out and maintain an 8 team league until the Big 12 blows up?

I realize every G6 school in the country will hope for those spots but I say NO.

Tcu is worth more than Texas Tech

If there’s one P5 school that hasn’t accomplished anything and it’s the perfect example of a P5 welfare queen is Texas Tech.

Baylor, at least, made it to a BCS and a NY6 Bowl. It has a Heisman Trophy . Granted, they lost both to UCF and Michigan State and its administration and athletic department are garbage but at least it’s on the record books.

TCU has been the best football program in the state. Period. Their Rose, Fiesta and Peach bowls speak for themselves and they have come a long way from their WAC days. I used to give them a hard time for jumping from one conference to another but they have earned my respect.

IIRC, Texas Tech was the only Texas school to have its team play in a bowl game, make the Elite 8 in the Men's NCAA Bball tournament and make the College World Series in 2017-2018.

Pretty dang good for a "P5 welfare queen". Just sayin

(08-29-2018 07:27 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(08-28-2018 10:31 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-28-2018 12:15 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(08-28-2018 10:20 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(08-28-2018 08:48 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  After SMU, no FBS football program will ever receive the death penalty again. Arguments could be made that Miami, Penn State and Baylor deserved extreme punishment for their respective scandals, but it is clear the NCAA is resistant to ever institute that type of penalty ever again. Each school, from consequence, was acknowledged to not only lack institutional control over their respective football programs, but also clearly prioritized a winning football program over their institutional mission, as well as the safety and well-being of student-athletes. However, the act of cleaning house, taking a tag of probation, and losing a number of scholarships over a couple of years has clearly been a satisfactory arrangement for the NCAA. If that is the worst that can happen, it is no wonder why there continues to be shameful and immoral decisions made within college football. Until there is real punishment and real consequence, I fear examples like these will only continue.

The NCAA's responsibility should begin and end with policing activities that bear upon gaining an unfair competitive edge in any given sport. They are overreaching when they choose to punish a member school for transgressions that, however heinous they may be, have nothing to do with competition....

OK, but in Baylor's case the transgressions clearly DID give the football team a competitive advantage. How so?

1) By shielding players from punishment which otherwise would've kept them out of one or more games, they gained depth at least and possibly talent as well.

2) It sounds like in some cases sex with co-eds may have been used as a highly unethical/immoral/illegal recruiting tool; if true, that sure sounds like an "impermissible benefit" to me.

Those things don't even consider the damage done to the victims, crimes committed (except indirectly), etc. - those are just advantages gained by the football team. That makes this a matter for the NCAA, in my opinion. Of course, it should also be investigated by police - but for totally different reasons.

I agree with the previous poster. However I agree with your take on Baylor. It is relevant. I don't think it was a competitive advantage at Penn St. and should not have been considered by the NCAA.

I agree there are aspects to Baylor's case in which the NCAA should be properly involved and some not. That's why I didn't include them in the examples I gave, where I was thinking specifically of Penn State and more recently Ohio State. The case at North Carolina was tenuous as well, as evidenced by the fact that the NCAA couldn't make it stick despite its egregious nature.

I think North Carolina was cut and dried. They just didn't want to go there. Players got grades they didn't earn and that made them eligible. That's academic fraud. That, in my mind, is the biggest type of violation. If they aren't true students, the whole system is a fraud. That they let other students slide also is an accreditation issue, but those students were incidental. The classes were opened for the athletes and they told a few friends about it. North Carolina should have had a couple of titles yanked. Instead, the NCAA has written a guidebook on how to cheat and get away with it.

And the whistleblower was harassed. This was every bit as bad as Jan Kemp at Georgia in the 80s.

(08-29-2018 08:58 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 07:27 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(08-28-2018 10:31 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-28-2018 12:15 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(08-28-2018 10:20 AM)ken d Wrote:  The NCAA's responsibility should begin and end with policing activities that bear upon gaining an unfair competitive edge in any given sport. They are overreaching when they choose to punish a member school for transgressions that, however heinous they may be, have nothing to do with competition....

OK, but in Baylor's case the transgressions clearly DID give the football team a competitive advantage. How so?

1) By shielding players from punishment which otherwise would've kept them out of one or more games, they gained depth at least and possibly talent as well.

2) It sounds like in some cases sex with co-eds may have been used as a highly unethical/immoral/illegal recruiting tool; if true, that sure sounds like an "impermissible benefit" to me.

Those things don't even consider the damage done to the victims, crimes committed (except indirectly), etc. - those are just advantages gained by the football team. That makes this a matter for the NCAA, in my opinion. Of course, it should also be investigated by police - but for totally different reasons.

I agree with the previous poster. However I agree with your take on Baylor. It is relevant. I don't think it was a competitive advantage at Penn St. and should not have been considered by the NCAA.

I agree there are aspects to Baylor's case in which the NCAA should be properly involved and some not. That's why I didn't include them in the examples I gave, where I was thinking specifically of Penn State and more recently Ohio State. The case at North Carolina was tenuous as well, as evidenced by the fact that the NCAA couldn't make it stick despite its egregious nature.

I think North Carolina was cut and dried. They just didn't want to go there. Players got grades they didn't earn and that made them eligible. That's academic fraud. That, in my mind, is the biggest type of violation. If they aren't true students, the whole system is a fraud. That they let other students slide also is an accreditation issue, but those students were incidental. The classes were opened for the athletes and they told a few friends about it. North Carolina should have had a couple of titles yanked. Instead, the NCAA has written a guidebook on how to cheat and get away with it.

And the whistleblower was harassed. This was every bit as bad as Jan Kemp at Georgia in the 80s.

Bullett, it was much worse than the Jan Kemp era at Georgia. Some classes at North Carolina were essentially fictitious and some instructors were not present. North Carolina's scandal was institutionalized right up to the bursar's office. Kemps issue was pressure to fix grades in legitimate classes.

(08-29-2018 08:30 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 01:13 AM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 12:34 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-28-2018 10:31 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-28-2018 12:15 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  OK, but in Baylor's case the transgressions clearly DID give the football team a competitive advantage. How so?

1) By shielding players from punishment which otherwise would've kept them out of one or more games, they gained depth at least and possibly talent as well.

2) It sounds like in some cases sex with co-eds may have been used as a highly unethical/immoral/illegal recruiting tool; if true, that sure sounds like an "impermissible benefit" to me.

Those things don't even consider the damage done to the victims, crimes committed (except indirectly), etc. - those are just advantages gained by the football team. That makes this a matter for the NCAA, in my opinion. Of course, it should also be investigated by police - but for totally different reasons.

I agree with the previous poster. However I agree with your take on Baylor. It is relevant. I don't think it was a competitive advantage at Penn St. and should not have been considered by the NCAA.

The Penn State situation was much more tenuous, by concealing avoided whatever recruiting hit might have happened, but I'd say Penn State's rebound despite the sanctions and horrible publicity demonstrates Penn State gained no real value.

More telling, the NCAA emails made it clear their whole case was pure bluff because they knew it didn't fit the rule book and unlike UNC where the argument it didn't fit the rule book was well made, it also didn't fit the jurisdiction of the accrediting body well either.

As a current Penn State student, all I can say based on my experience is they are ashamed of what happened. The fans on message boards for the most part still defend Joe Paterno, especially the ones who were students or fans before the scandal hit in 2010. I found the entire thing disgusting and it’s the reason I felt guilty rooting for Penn State for the first time last year. Penn State was lucky to have the fanbase, resources, history and tradition to make a comeback as fast as they did. I doubt they would’ve recovered if they were a Rutgers, Illinois, Indiana type of program. We don’t have to go that far, Baylor, the topic of this thread might never recover from their scandal.

Yeah well Baylor already bounced back from the murder of a basketball player where the coach tried to hinder the police investigation and paint the deceased as a drug dealer to explain all the stuff he had that he couldn't have afforded.

I remember that in the early 2000’s but one murder and a massive rape coverup are way too many scandals for a school like Baylor. It shows a lack of institutional control from the President’s office to all the way down to the Athletic Department. How many second chances will they get? They didn’t learn from the first one, they will not learn from this one either.

Baylor could be back in the crosshairs of SACS, who accredits them. They're only month from having their three warnings from the Pepper Hamilton report removed. They were:
1. If they had sufficient student support services in place.
2. that Baylor's president had appropriate administrative and fiscal control over the athletics program,
3. that Baylor provided a healthy, safe, and secure environment for all campus constituents.

#1 and 3 may get a deeper look at from SASCCOC.

I say that Baylor should get their accreditation pulled. They would be the next VU-Lynchberg. Vu-Lynchberg had to bow out of the NCAA. That would mean any games against Baylor would not count until they get everything fixed.