(08-23-2018 09:27 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Few thoughts.

I don't understand G5 leagues scheduling rivalry games in November, especially post-Thanksgiving. Attendance is too linked to success and half the teams are going to have a poor record and diminished interest. Playing in October makes more sense. Combine the rivalry passion with the not yet dashed dreams for the season and get a bigger crowd.

MAC made a choice. I think they understood the trade-off and took it. My personal experience with AState's scheduling has been one weeknight game at home isn't a bad thing. It's the second one that sort of sucks the fun out of it. But I LOVE weeknight road games. I can come home from work have supper and settle in to watch the game and I get a free Saturday out of the deal.

The timing of the MAC games is the real pain. Late season it can be uncomfortably cold in Arkansas so I can't imagine having similar temps earlier in the year and having the game at night isn't a fun combination. Been a few times for late season day games that I've abandoned my seats and crashed the other side of the stadium to sit in the sun. Ain't no sunshine for late season MACtion.

Because rivalry games draw regardless of the teams records.

(08-23-2018 07:39 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-23-2018 09:27 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Few thoughts.

I don't understand G5 leagues scheduling rivalry games in November, especially post-Thanksgiving. Attendance is too linked to success and half the teams are going to have a poor record and diminished interest. Playing in October makes more sense. Combine the rivalry passion with the not yet dashed dreams for the season and get a bigger crowd.

MAC made a choice. I think they understood the trade-off and took it. My personal experience with AState's scheduling has been one weeknight game at home isn't a bad thing. It's the second one that sort of sucks the fun out of it. But I LOVE weeknight road games. I can come home from work have supper and settle in to watch the game and I get a free Saturday out of the deal.

The timing of the MAC games is the real pain. Late season it can be uncomfortably cold in Arkansas so I can't imagine having similar temps earlier in the year and having the game at night isn't a fun combination. Been a few times for late season day games that I've abandoned my seats and crashed the other side of the stadium to sit in the sun. Ain't no sunshine for late season MACtion.

Because rivalry games draw regardless of the teams records.

I don't think that is true but for some of the big rivalries.

The Iron Bowl or Bedlam exist as a critical test of the season for fans of each program.
With low tier P5's and the G5's it isn't the norm to have a game that people are going to plan their year around.

MAC is different in that regard.

Kent St-Akron (wagon wheel)
BGSU-Toledo (battle of I-75)
CMU-WMU (victory cannon)
Ohio-Miami (battle of the bricks)

NIU in football and Ball St in bb is a pretty big deal on the schedule with their traditions in those sports.

EMU in the house is unofficial smalltime night across the MAC.

Buffalo plays the spoiler role for the MAC.

(08-23-2018 10:45 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  MAC is different in that regard.

Kent St-Akron (wagon wheel)
BGSU-Toledo (battle of I-75)
CMU-WMU (victory cannon)
Ohio-Miami (battle of the bricks)

NIU in football and Ball St in bb is a pretty big deal on the schedule with their traditions in those sports.

EMU in the house is unofficial smalltime night across the MAC.

Buffalo plays the spoiler role for the MAC.

So these draw better crowds on Wednesday in November than a random game on Saturday afternoon in September or October?

(08-21-2018 03:19 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(08-21-2018 01:13 PM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(08-21-2018 12:47 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  As someone from outside the region with no ties to any MAC schools I love the middle of the week FB games when you are bored. Also since MACtion the MAC has had a BCS rep and a NY6 rep.

Sure some MACtion is good, but we have 3 home MACtion games this year, all in October/November. That's wayy overboard. Attendance will be poor, so when you see people make arguments as to why the MAC is a piss poor conference they use the crappy attendance figures. And most of those numbers are skewed because of MACtion.

To that point, there are 16 MACtion games scheduled this year. Eight of the 12 MAC teams will play in 15 of them, while the other four teams will play a total of twice combined.

But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what fans think about this. The only thing that matters is whether the league's 12 members like it or not.

They should definitely spread them out more. Perhaps limit it to one home and one away for each team.

(08-24-2018 08:49 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-23-2018 10:45 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  MAC is different in that regard.

Kent St-Akron (wagon wheel)
BGSU-Toledo (battle of I-75)
CMU-WMU (victory cannon)
Ohio-Miami (battle of the bricks)

NIU in football and Ball St in bb is a pretty big deal on the schedule with their traditions in those sports.

EMU in the house is unofficial smalltime night across the MAC.

Buffalo plays the spoiler role for the MAC.

So these draw better crowds on Wednesday in November than a random game on Saturday afternoon in September or October?

What you said before is it's not normal for a G5 to have a big rivalry game.

In the MAC at least there are several "sell out" rivalry games in conference which are desirable to protect.

1) Proximity of some of the schools.
2) MAC fans tend to be more casual and stay away from smaller games. They tend to load up for a couple of big games a year.

The MAC should make sure the rivalry games stay in October and not midweek. They dont do a good job of optimizing the schedule.

In the MAC desirability of conference home games go something thing like this.

1) Rivalry game
2) Homecoming
3) Division on the line.

ESPN has moved rivalry games midweek or Black Friday.

The only way the MAC has been able to protect homecoming is to have it not be televised.

Games that impact the standings also have been moved to November.

ESPN has too much control on the schedule. I think we should move to FS1, make AAC level money and have more control over what games are being put on TV.

My Thoughts:
1.) It has transformed the MAC into a national brand. Now people know who the MAC is a D1 FBS conference. I love being able to watch road games on TV too, and love nothing better then getting home from work and turning on a football game. I love weeknight football, NFL or FBS.

2.) Recruiting has improved. It does not hurt recruiting. Recruits care about playing time and a scholarship. And the MAC is no longer the bottom of the non BCS conferences and at least 2 schools have recently had their best recruiting classes in school history: Toledo and Western Michigan

3.) The weeknight games are in November, a time of the year when attendance would be low for a MAC game even on a Saturday. You play these games on Saturdays, you won't see the kind of attendance increase lot of fans think.

4.) The big problem to me is that too many games are on weeknights. Should be no more than 2 games a week. It should be a special thing, not the whole Conference playing on a weeknight.

5.) Rivalry games should be played on Saturdays. (You'd then get people complaining that rivalry games should be played later in the season, but that doesn't bother me.)

6.) The deal is too long. I believe it's until 2028 or something. ESPN wants all Conference games during the week? Then the deal gets shortened.

7.) The MAC makes money off of this.

(08-21-2018 04:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  The MAC benefitted from Marshall and Miami's great years. That is what raised their profile.

It certainly helped it, but the MAC is still doing fine without Marshall.

(08-21-2018 03:12 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(08-21-2018 09:17 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  Is it good for the MAC? We all know it kills attendance, but it does give national exposure and is potentially a decent recruiting tool.

As a college football fan I love Maction! FB on Tuesday and Wednesday!!

If I rooted for a team in the MAC I’d hate Maction. It’s destroying MAC FB programs. You simply can’t get butts in the seats on a Tuesday and Wednesday. It’s ridiculously awful for the MAC

It's not destroying MAC programs.

(08-21-2018 11:43 AM)BeatWestern! Wrote:  

(08-21-2018 10:37 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  MACtion is a good thing. The MAC was struggling to draw big crowds for November football even before the shift to weeknights.

The value of being the only football on TV some nights is immense. It has introduced our humble conference to a lot of people who might never have otherwise heard of us.

Bingo! The MAC went from a regional brand to a national brand with the ESPN midweek games.

yep

(08-21-2018 10:40 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I've said this before, I'll say it again.

The time of consistently high MAC attendance is gone. It's now the time to embrace the idea of the MAC being the first interactive, social media driven, high production value football games on TV.

Along with this, it's time for a big marketing drive to get MAC team gear to buy in every every gas station, residence, warehouse, farmhouse, henhouse, outhouse and doghouse in at least the Midwest to start, then expand nationwide.

The future is now. Innovate or die. The market is electronic, not butts in seats.

I agree. We don't have the budget to have MAC gear in every store though unfortunately.
Great business idea tho.

(08-21-2018 10:35 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(08-21-2018 09:17 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  Is it good for the MAC? We all know it kills attendance, but it does give national exposure and is potentially a decent recruiting tool.

We have empirical data about the impact on attendance. But what evidence is there that the league is benefitting from exposure, or that this has helped recruiting?

If there were a benefit, at some point it would show up in improved performance on the field. I would assert that there hasn't been any improvement yet.

Unless the league members are getting a boatload of money for this, it's hard to see how it benefits anybody but ESPN.

2 schools - Western Michigan and Toledo - have both had their best recruiting classes in school history.
2 schools - Western Michigan and Northern illinois - have also made BCS bowls.
The MAC is no longer considered the bottom non-power conference but has moved up a couple rungs.

(08-21-2018 10:37 AM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  MACtion is a good thing. The MAC was struggling to draw big crowds for November football even before the shift to weeknights.

The value of being the only football on TV some nights is immense. It has introduced our humble conference to a lot of people who might never have otherwise heard of us.

I agree. :) :) :)

Here's what I think would be the ideal tv plan for the MAC:

1 weeknight Home game and Away game per team

These 12 games would be played the last 6 weeks of the season, one on Tuesday and one on Wednesday on ESPN or ESPN 2.

Featured games on ESPN family networks on Black Friday

The SBC and/or C-USA could have a similar set up and air on the opposite channel both Tuesday and Wednesday. You could also start MACTION earlier in the season and let the Southern conferences play more of the November night games.

What this does: it makes the weeknight games special again. They are stale and fans are getting bored with them and aren't willing to deal with the inconvenience and cold of watching an outdoor football game after dark in the Midwest on a work night in November. The MAC is killing off its own fanbase by making their games inaccessible to fans. Most MAC schools play just 5 or 6 home games, 1 is usually a crappy FCS school, and 2 are in these awkward times lots.

(08-24-2018 09:08 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Here's what I think would be the ideal tv plan for the MAC:

1 weeknight Home game and Away game per team

These 12 games would be played the last 6 weeks of the season, one on Tuesday and one on Wednesday on ESPN or ESPN 2.

Featured games on ESPN family networks on Black Friday

The SBC and/or C-USA could have a similar set up and air on the opposite channel both Tuesday and Wednesday. You could also start MACTION earlier in the season and let the Southern conferences play more of the November night games.

What this does: it makes the weeknight games special again. They are stale and fans are getting bored with them and aren't willing to deal with the inconvenience and cold of watching an outdoor football game after dark in the Midwest on a work night in November. The MAC is killing off its own fanbase by making their games inaccessible to fans. Most MAC schools play just 5 or 6 home games, 1 is usually a crappy FCS school, and 2 are in these awkward times lots.

Why does the MAC want a shared setup on ESPN with SBC/CUSA?

The MAC needs to take the next step and get a big money deal like the AAC is doing, even if it means leaving mother ESPN.

kitten head: I'm not saying that the MAC WANTS to share the week night games with another league but they are over saturating the market and diluting their product with all these late fall week night games. Filling the schedule with other G5 games just seems to be the natural reaction by the network and they already own the SBC rights.

The MAC doesn't have enough appeal to get the same tv deal as the AAC.

Now what would be really intriguing is if the G5 leagues not named the AAC were able to bundle some of their tv rights into a G5 network.

(08-24-2018 09:32 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  kitten head: I'm not saying that the MAC WANTS to share the week night games with another league but they are over saturating the market and diluting their product with all these late fall week night games. Filling the schedule with other G5 games just seems to be the natural reaction by the network and they already own the SBC rights.

The MAC doesn't have enough appeal to get the same tv deal as the AAC.

Now what would be really intriguing is if the G5 leagues not named the AAC were able to bundle some of their tv rights into a G5 network.

MAC has midweek games and should be paid handsomely for its sacrifice.

(08-24-2018 01:57 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(08-24-2018 08:49 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-23-2018 10:45 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  MAC is different in that regard.

Kent St-Akron (wagon wheel)
BGSU-Toledo (battle of I-75)
CMU-WMU (victory cannon)
Ohio-Miami (battle of the bricks)

NIU in football and Ball St in bb is a pretty big deal on the schedule with their traditions in those sports.

EMU in the house is unofficial smalltime night across the MAC.

Buffalo plays the spoiler role for the MAC.

So these draw better crowds on Wednesday in November than a random game on Saturday afternoon in September or October?

What you said before is it's not normal for a G5 to have a big rivalry game.

In the MAC at least there are several "sell out" rivalry games in conference which are desirable to protect.

1) Proximity of some of the schools.
2) MAC fans tend to be more casual and stay away from smaller games. They tend to load up for a couple of big games a year.

The MAC should make sure the rivalry games stay in October and not midweek. They dont do a good job of optimizing the schedule.

I said only big rivalry games draw well regardless of record. Simply listing rivalries doesn't establish those games draw well regardless of record nor that they will draw regardless of date.

(08-25-2018 01:05 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-24-2018 01:57 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(08-24-2018 08:49 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-23-2018 10:45 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  MAC is different in that regard.

Kent St-Akron (wagon wheel)
BGSU-Toledo (battle of I-75)
CMU-WMU (victory cannon)
Ohio-Miami (battle of the bricks)

NIU in football and Ball St in bb is a pretty big deal on the schedule with their traditions in those sports.

EMU in the house is unofficial smalltime night across the MAC.

Buffalo plays the spoiler role for the MAC.

So these draw better crowds on Wednesday in November than a random game on Saturday afternoon in September or October?

What you said before is it's not normal for a G5 to have a big rivalry game.

In the MAC at least there are several "sell out" rivalry games in conference which are desirable to protect.

1) Proximity of some of the schools.
2) MAC fans tend to be more casual and stay away from smaller games. They tend to load up for a couple of big games a year.

The MAC should make sure the rivalry games stay in October and not midweek. They dont do a good job of optimizing the schedule.

I said only big rivalry games draw well regardless of record. Simply listing rivalries doesn't establish those games draw well regardless of record nor that they will draw regardless of date.

Those rivalries do draw well regardless or record and schedule for the most part.

MAC has games like that.

(08-21-2018 10:35 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(08-21-2018 09:17 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  Is it good for the MAC? We all know it kills attendance, but it does give national exposure and is potentially a decent recruiting tool.

We have empirical data about the impact on attendance. But what evidence is there that the league is benefitting from exposure, or that this has helped recruiting?

If there were a benefit, at some point it would show up in improved performance on the field. I would assert that there hasn't been any improvement yet.

Unless the league members are getting a boatload of money for this, it's hard to see how it benefits anybody but ESPN.

Yea, I've been asking that question also. Eventually it should improve the MAC's record against OOC foes, at the beginning of the season and in the bowls. It certainly has not helped in bowl games. I don't really see an improvement in the early OOC games either.

And I would say, since they've been doing this for some time, if there isn't improvement by now, there won't be. I mean, recruits can watch the game on TV (if they have ESPN2, ESPNU, and ESPN+, etc.), but they also see mostly empty stands. I don't see how that is going to help recruiting.

(08-26-2018 01:05 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(08-21-2018 10:35 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(08-21-2018 09:17 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  Is it good for the MAC? We all know it kills attendance, but it does give national exposure and is potentially a decent recruiting tool.

We have empirical data about the impact on attendance. But what evidence is there that the league is benefitting from exposure, or that this has helped recruiting?

If there were a benefit, at some point it would show up in improved performance on the field. I would assert that there hasn't been any improvement yet.

Unless the league members are getting a boatload of money for this, it's hard to see how it benefits anybody but ESPN.

Yea, I've been asking that question also. Eventually it should improve the MAC's record against OOC foes, at the beginning of the season and in the bowls. It certainly has not helped in bowl games. I don't really see an improvement in the early OOC games either.

And I would say, since they've been doing this for some time, if there isn't improvement by now, there won't be. I mean, recruits can watch the game on TV (if they have ESPN2, ESPNU, and ESPN+, etc.), but they also see mostly empty stands. I don't see how that is going to help recruiting.

Half the problem with the midweek games is the dance partner...ESPN.

They screw up the rivalry games and sublicense out the CBSSN. A MAC fan then is forced into picking up an expensive TV plan with CBSSN.

I'd say move to FS1 for big bucks and better timeslots. Two consistent midweek games every week instead of a firehose in November.

(08-26-2018 01:05 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(08-21-2018 10:35 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(08-21-2018 09:17 AM)Fthechips Wrote:  Is it good for the MAC? We all know it kills attendance, but it does give national exposure and is potentially a decent recruiting tool.

We have empirical data about the impact on attendance. But what evidence is there that the league is benefitting from exposure, or that this has helped recruiting?

If there were a benefit, at some point it would show up in improved performance on the field. I would assert that there hasn't been any improvement yet.

Unless the league members are getting a boatload of money for this, it's hard to see how it benefits anybody but ESPN.

Yea, I've been asking that question also. Eventually it should improve the MAC's record against OOC foes, at the beginning of the season and in the bowls. It certainly has not helped in bowl games. I don't really see an improvement in the early OOC games either.

And I would say, since they've been doing this for some time, if there isn't improvement by now, there won't be. I mean, recruits can watch the game on TV (if they have ESPN2, ESPNU, and ESPN+, etc.), but they also see mostly empty stands. I don't see how that is going to help recruiting.

I posted on why I think it has been helping the MAC on the field earlier.

Also, I'm not sure how much stock a recruit puts into empty stands or full stands.

(08-21-2018 04:17 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-21-2018 01:13 PM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(08-21-2018 12:47 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  As someone from outside the region with no ties to any MAC schools I love the middle of the week FB games when you are bored. Also since MACtion the MAC has had a BCS rep and a NY6 rep.

Sure some MACtion is good, but we have 3 home MACtion games this year, all in October/November. That's wayy overboard. Attendance will be poor, so when you see people make arguments as to why the MAC is a piss poor conference they use the crappy attendance figures. And most of those numbers are skewed because of MACtion.

Right. Some MACtion is good. Too much MACtion is fatal.

They need about half as many games on T/W. Logical would be the MAC and Sun Belt pairing up to each have two games a week. There were NO Saturday MAC games on at least one and maybe several weekends last year. That means when everyone is paying attention, the MAC isn't even there.

Low attendance now means less fans in the future.

The MAC benefitted from Marshall and Miami's great years. That is what raised their profile.

The MAC had some good teams in the 70s too.

Miami finished the season ranked top-15 3 years in a row in the 70s.

Toledo finished the season ranked top-15 twice in the 70s.

3 of the 6 MAC teams were ranked a some point in 1973 (Miami, Bowling Green, Kent)

I like MACtion but I'm perplexed by how ESPN has morphed it on the schedule the last 2-3 years. MACtion use to happen one weeknight a week every week then kinda ramp up in late October. Add in some CUSA and MWC and Sun Belt and it was semi-common towards the end of the season to be able to watch college football every night of the week except Sunday and Monday. Now it's Th-Fri-Sat until November and they just pour on all the MAC during the week then. I'd like to see more G5 games during the week all season long, not just crammed into November.