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The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
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Big Ron Buckeye Offline
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Post: #1
The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/reco...by=Win+Pct


When Jim Delany is asked about the power of the East division compared to the West he often brings up how the SEC East was once dominant then things turned to the West. While that is indisputable I don't think that comparison is Apples to Apples. What do I mean... Looking at traditional powers (winning record since 1945 aka the common era link above) shows why that logic is a little bit of a stretch IMO. To elaborate further lets pull out the win% rankings for the SEC and B1G since 1945.

B1G
#3 Ohio State
#4 Penn State
#6 Michigan
#9 Nebraska
#27 Sparty
#37 Wisconsin
#55 Iowa
#56 Maryland
#59 Rutgers
#72 Purdue
#79 Minnesota
#89 Illinois
#102 Northwestern
#104 Indiana

SEC
#5 Alabama
#12 Georgia
#13 Tennessee
#14 LSU
#15 Florida
#17 Auburn
#21 Arkansas
#29 Ole Miss
#39 Texas A&M
#49 Mizzou
#61 South Carolina
#86 Mississippi State
#87 Kentucky
#109 Vanderbilt

Now you may or may not agree with me but I think win % is the common era is a good proxy for prestige of the program. Top 20 means you have a solid program and probably a National title in the common era. Notice apart from The SEC having a much higher average the balance of teams from the East and the West that fill the top 20. I would argue that the SEC West by virtue of a much higher average has more tradition than the SEC East. Also notice that apart from Nebraska, Wisconsin is the only other team that cracked the top 50 in the B1G West. There is a long and enduring dominance Eastward in the B1G. Most of the population, talent, tradition, and Administrative support resides in the East. And has for a long time.

What I propose as new Divisional Alignment would not erase this tilt but slightly reduce it. B1G East...........B1G West
-----------------------------------
Rutgers.............Sparty
Maryland...........Purdue
Penn State.........Northwestern
Ohio State..........Wisconsin
Michigan............Minnesota
Indiana...............Iowa
Illinois.................Nebraska

Logic behind this shift. There are 4 obvious East and 4 obvious West teams leaving us with the 3 states that have 2 schools per state (obviously they would be locked annual games)
Northwestern goes West because the Western Division needs to recruit the hell out of Chicago and Northwestern is recently though not historically a better program.

Purdue goes West because they are Historically a better program.

Sparty Goes West because they are a team that has made the B1G CCG and consistently had success against all opponents in the Conference. SPARTY COULD BECOME A MONSTER OF A PROGRAMS WITH THIS ALIGNMENT.

Illinois and Indiana goes East as programs with potential that could legitimately contend for 3rd or 4th place in the division along with Maryland and Rutgers.

Michigan goes East because there are big TV dollars playing PSU and OSU annually for division supremacy along with massive alumni in the NYC to DC that would probably want them to continue coming to College Park and Piscataway.
07-26-2018 07:10 PM
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Big Ron Buckeye Offline
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RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
The only change is Sparty to the West and Illinois to the East, after all I did say a gentle division redo, however I think that one Change would be enough to change the rhetoric about the overrepresented East in the Power rankings.
(This post was last modified: 07-26-2018 08:31 PM by Big Ron Buckeye.)
07-26-2018 08:20 PM
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GE and MTS Offline
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Post: #3
RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
I could see a MSU for Purdue trade. That way there would only be one locked crossover opponent still (MSU - Michigan). But my understanding is that the current geography keeps the most rivals as currently constructed.

I would like to see the temporary locked crossover opponent to be eliminated to play each school more often.
07-26-2018 08:57 PM
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Win5002 Offline
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RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
There is no real fix to the East vs West as long as you are leaving OSU,PSU, and Michigan in the same division especially when you throw in the 4 best recruiting grounds of Ohio, Maryland/DC, New Jersey & Pennsylvania. Maybe Illinois competes for 3 or 4 in a given year. Moving MSU over won't solve anything.

If the league wants balance you need something like this:

OSU, Mich, MSU, Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois
PSU, Neb. Iowa, Wisky, Rutgers, maryland , Minnesota
**Or you could flip Wisky/Minnesota for Northwestern/illinois. whoever gets the Badgers in this situation is going to have the tougher division. But this would balance the leagues better and give Nebraska, Iowa and possibly Wisky more exposure for recruits. The best thing is a single set of standings where you only lock in 3 rivalry games and rotate the other 6 games around which isn't allowed at this time but I think would be good for leagues and maybe its a possibility in the future.
07-27-2018 01:05 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #5
RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
(07-27-2018 01:05 PM)Win5002 Wrote:  There is no real fix to the East vs West as long as you are leaving OSU,PSU, and Michigan in the same division especially when you throw in the 4 best recruiting grounds of Ohio, Maryland/DC, New Jersey & Pennsylvania. Maybe Illinois competes for 3 or 4 in a given year. Moving MSU over won't solve anything.

If the league wants balance you need something like this:

OSU, Mich, MSU, Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois
PSU, Neb. Iowa, Wisky, Rutgers, maryland , Minnesota
**Or you could flip Wisky/Minnesota for Northwestern/illinois. whoever gets the Badgers in this situation is going to have the tougher division. But this would balance the leagues better and give Nebraska, Iowa and possibly Wisky more exposure for recruits. The best thing is a single set of standings where you only lock in 3 rivalry games and rotate the other 6 games around which isn't allowed at this time but I think would be good for leagues and maybe its a possibility in the future.

OR

EAST: Rutgers, Maryland, PSU, OSU, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois
WEST: Michigan, Mich. St, N'Western, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska

One protected crossover: Michigan/Ohio State
07-27-2018 01:18 PM
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Win5002 Offline
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RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
(07-27-2018 01:18 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-27-2018 01:05 PM)Win5002 Wrote:  There is no real fix to the East vs West as long as you are leaving OSU,PSU, and Michigan in the same division especially when you throw in the 4 best recruiting grounds of Ohio, Maryland/DC, New Jersey & Pennsylvania. Maybe Illinois competes for 3 or 4 in a given year. Moving MSU over won't solve anything.

If the league wants balance you need something like this:

OSU, Mich, MSU, Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois
PSU, Neb. Iowa, Wisky, Rutgers, maryland , Minnesota
**Or you could flip Wisky/Minnesota for Northwestern/illinois. whoever gets the Badgers in this situation is going to have the tougher division. But this would balance the leagues better and give Nebraska, Iowa and possibly Wisky more exposure for recruits. The best thing is a single set of standings where you only lock in 3 rivalry games and rotate the other 6 games around which isn't allowed at this time but I think would be good for leagues and maybe its a possibility in the future.

OR

EAST: Rutgers, Maryland, PSU, OSU, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois
WEST: Michigan, Mich. St, N'Western, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska

One protected crossover: Michigan/Ohio State

If you did that scenario, you would need to flip Wisky to the East or other wise the East is too weak. But I am afraid that would damage the Michigan brand over time. Everyone talks about how Maryland and Rutgers are bad content but their recruiting grounds has helped the B1G and especially PSU rebound. Again, there is not enough recruiting grounds in the West.
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2018 01:41 PM by Win5002.)
07-27-2018 01:40 PM
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Win5002 Offline
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RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
The recruiting issues in the B1G is why it would be so huge to get Texas to come. I don't believe Texas ever comes with just OU and no Kansas and Rice do nothing for Texas football. If I was the B1G I would tell Texas they could bring any 2 partners in addition to OU they want to make it happen. I don't care if it is TT & Houston/TCU, TT & Arkansas. What really be interesting is what if A&M and Arkansas come with Texas & OU and essentially shut off the state of Texas to other leagues and at the same time essentially demote TT, TCU & Baylor from P5 status in the state.
07-27-2018 01:48 PM
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Big Ron Buckeye Offline
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Post: #8
RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
(07-27-2018 01:18 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-27-2018 01:05 PM)Win5002 Wrote:  There is no real fix to the East vs West as long as you are leaving OSU,PSU, and Michigan in the same division especially when you throw in the 4 best recruiting grounds of Ohio, Maryland/DC, New Jersey & Pennsylvania. Maybe Illinois competes for 3 or 4 in a given year. Moving MSU over won't solve anything.

If the league wants balance you need something like this:

OSU, Mich, MSU, Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois
PSU, Neb. Iowa, Wisky, Rutgers, maryland , Minnesota
**Or you could flip Wisky/Minnesota for Northwestern/illinois. whoever gets the Badgers in this situation is going to have the tougher division. But this would balance the leagues better and give Nebraska, Iowa and possibly Wisky more exposure for recruits. The best thing is a single set of standings where you only lock in 3 rivalry games and rotate the other 6 games around which isn't allowed at this time but I think would be good for leagues and maybe its a possibility in the future.

OR

EAST: Rutgers, Maryland, PSU, OSU, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois
WEST: Michigan, Mich. St, N'Western, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska

One protected crossover: Michigan/Ohio State

I love it except the possible playing of Ohio State v Michigan on back to back weeks.
07-27-2018 04:43 PM
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Big Ron Buckeye Offline
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Post: #9
RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
(07-27-2018 01:18 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-27-2018 01:05 PM)Win5002 Wrote:  There is no real fix to the East vs West as long as you are leaving OSU,PSU, and Michigan in the same division especially when you throw in the 4 best recruiting grounds of Ohio, Maryland/DC, New Jersey & Pennsylvania. Maybe Illinois competes for 3 or 4 in a given year. Moving MSU over won't solve anything.

If the league wants balance you need something like this:

OSU, Mich, MSU, Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois
PSU, Neb. Iowa, Wisky, Rutgers, maryland , Minnesota
**Or you could flip Wisky/Minnesota for Northwestern/illinois. whoever gets the Badgers in this situation is going to have the tougher division. But this would balance the leagues better and give Nebraska, Iowa and possibly Wisky more exposure for recruits. The best thing is a single set of standings where you only lock in 3 rivalry games and rotate the other 6 games around which isn't allowed at this time but I think would be good for leagues and maybe its a possibility in the future.

OR

EAST: Rutgers, Maryland, PSU, OSU, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois
WEST: Michigan, Mich. St, N'Western, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska

One protected crossover: Michigan/Ohio State

I love it except the possible playing of Ohio State v Michigan on back to back weeks.
07-27-2018 04:43 PM
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GE and MTS Offline
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Post: #10
RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
(07-27-2018 04:43 PM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  
(07-27-2018 01:18 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(07-27-2018 01:05 PM)Win5002 Wrote:  There is no real fix to the East vs West as long as you are leaving OSU,PSU, and Michigan in the same division especially when you throw in the 4 best recruiting grounds of Ohio, Maryland/DC, New Jersey & Pennsylvania. Maybe Illinois competes for 3 or 4 in a given year. Moving MSU over won't solve anything.

If the league wants balance you need something like this:

OSU, Mich, MSU, Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois
PSU, Neb. Iowa, Wisky, Rutgers, maryland , Minnesota
**Or you could flip Wisky/Minnesota for Northwestern/illinois. whoever gets the Badgers in this situation is going to have the tougher division. But this would balance the leagues better and give Nebraska, Iowa and possibly Wisky more exposure for recruits. The best thing is a single set of standings where you only lock in 3 rivalry games and rotate the other 6 games around which isn't allowed at this time but I think would be good for leagues and maybe its a possibility in the future.

OR

EAST: Rutgers, Maryland, PSU, OSU, Indiana, Purdue, Illinois
WEST: Michigan, Mich. St, N'Western, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska

One protected crossover: Michigan/Ohio State

I love it except the possible playing of Ohio State v Michigan on back to back weeks.

Michigan last won the Big Ten in 2004 as co-champ, outright in 2003. I think we can take the chance of a rematch with OSU in the finals.

I want Penn State to play Ohio State, Maryland, and Rutgers annually whether or not it is locked cross division match ups or in the same division. Those are non-negotiable in my mind. Not that Maryland and Rutgers are rivals but they are where Penn State has lots of alumni and athletes.
07-27-2018 10:02 PM
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Sparty84 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
I understand this discussion is about business etc. As a Spartan fan I have zero interest in being in the West Division. While i like when we compete against Wisconsin, Nebraska and Iowa, competing with them could never take the place of competing against tOSU, PSU and Lil Sister (UofM).

What are the chances that a Northern Division and Southern Division would work? Then everyone gets some exposure from East to West across the conference.

NORTH
Nebraska
Minnesota
Wiscosin
Michigan State
Penn State
Rutgers
Indiana

SOUTH
Iowa
Illinois
Purdue
Northwestern
Michigan
Ohio State
Maryland

With this plan you get two blue blood programs in each division. You get two typically good programs in each division and 3 cannon fodder schools with teams playing east to west all across the conference. I think that the divisions should also be made fluid to change up the groupings every 5 years or 10 years to mix up the blue blood partners and account for the rise and fall of good teams and alternate cannon fodder teams and for exposure in different areas.
07-28-2018 02:56 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
(07-28-2018 02:56 PM)Sparty84 Wrote:  I understand this discussion is about business etc. As a Spartan fan I have zero interest in being in the West Division. While i like when we compete against Wisconsin, Nebraska and Iowa, competing with them could never take the place of competing against tOSU, PSU and Lil Sister (UofM).

What are the chances that a Northern Division and Southern Division would work? Then everyone gets some exposure from East to West across the conference.

NORTH
Nebraska
Minnesota
Wiscosin
Michigan State
Penn State
Rutgers
Indiana

SOUTH
Iowa
Illinois
Purdue
Northwestern
Michigan
Ohio State
Maryland

With this plan you get two blue blood programs in each division. You get two typically good programs in each division and 3 cannon fodder schools with teams playing east to west all across the conference. I think that the divisions should also be made fluid to change up the groupings every 5 years or 10 years to mix up the blue blood partners and account for the rise and fall of good teams and alternate cannon fodder teams and for exposure in different areas.

Yes, as I was reading other people's comments I had reached the same conclusion - the best solution is probably North/South rather than East/West. That said, I'd try to keep Maryland with Rutgers and Penn State, and I'd call that the South (particularly if Nebraska is in it!). I'd call the one with Michigan and Ohio State the North.

Probably flip Michigan State for Maryland?
07-28-2018 04:55 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
(07-28-2018 02:56 PM)Sparty84 Wrote:  I understand this discussion is about business etc. As a Spartan fan I have zero interest in being in the West Division. While i like when we compete against Wisconsin, Nebraska and Iowa, competing with them could never take the place of competing against tOSU, PSU and Lil Sister (UofM).

What are the chances that a Northern Division and Southern Division would work? Then everyone gets some exposure from East to West across the conference.

NORTH
Nebraska
Minnesota
Wiscosin
Michigan State
Penn State
Rutgers
Indiana

SOUTH
Iowa
Illinois
Purdue
Northwestern
Michigan
Ohio State
Maryland

With this plan you get two blue blood programs in each division. You get two typically good programs in each division and 3 cannon fodder schools with teams playing east to west all across the conference. I think that the divisions should also be made fluid to change up the groupings every 5 years or 10 years to mix up the blue blood partners and account for the rise and fall of good teams and alternate cannon fodder teams and for exposure in different areas.

Yes, as I was reading other people's comments I had reached the same conclusion - the best solution is probably North/South rather than East/West. That said, I'd try to keep Maryland with Rutgers and Penn State, and I'd call that the South (particularly if Nebraska is in it!). I'd call the one with Michigan and Ohio State the North.

Probably flip Michigan State for Maryland?
07-28-2018 04:55 PM
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GE and MTS Offline
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RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
Legends - Leaders
Penn State - Ohio State
Wisconsin - Michigan State
Minnesota - Michigan
Iowa - Purdue
Nebraska - Illinois
Rutgers - Northwestern
Maryland - Indiana

Make at least PSU - OSU locked annually. I think everyone's primary rival is taken care of, as well as some secondary ones. Legends get Pennsylvania, Maryland, and New Jersey recruiting grounds. Leaders get Ohio, Michigan, and Illinois.

I like the divisions as currently constructed though. The east is a juggernaut now, but who knows in a decade. The SEC fluctuates in strength. The ACC divided up by strength and that is considered a disaster as everyone wants to redo divisions but can't agree to anything.
07-28-2018 06:55 PM
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Big Ron Buckeye Offline
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RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
@ Sparty84... Nice swipe at UofM. I hear what you are saying as far as not wanting to lose OSU and PSU. But I think moving MSU (one of the stronger teams in the league since D'Antonio got there) to the West is the only way to balance the league from a competitive standpoint.

Simply put, the West lacks heft at the top although there are the makings of a very competitive middle.
Consider my original Suggestion:
East........................West
-------------------------------------------------------
Rutgers..............................Nebraska
Maryland...........................Iowa
Penn State.........................Minnesota
Ohio State..........................Wisconsin
Michigan..........(locked).....Sparty
Indiana.............(locked).....Purdue
Illinois................(locked)...Northwestern

Rundown of the East... Big 3 plus 4 developing programs. It will be difficult for the less than 100k attendance schools to overtake the over 100k schools but with the natural talent pools that they can draw from... they have the ability to be dangerous and perhaps eventually add to the depth of the East.

Rundown of the West. This alignment is at present DEEPER than the East. The top of the West would likely be Nebraska, Sparty, and Wisconsin in no particular order. But given what we have seen as far as coaching hires (Purdue and Minnesota) and commitment of resources at a places like (Minnesota & Northwestern) and the normally dangerous Iowa... The West would be competitive from top to bottom unlike the top heavy East.
(This post was last modified: 07-28-2018 11:55 PM by Big Ron Buckeye.)
07-28-2018 11:38 PM
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RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
As far as the North/South alignments that split the Naturally Eastern and Western schools... We have to realize the era that we live in. Attendance has been falling with loss of regional rivals. We have to try to keep as much proximity in the league as possible so nearly broke college students and alumni can make a 4-5 hour roady and be back at work or school by Monday.
07-28-2018 11:47 PM
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RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
To me, the shakeup has to occur among Ohio State, Penn State, and Michigan. Can't have those three in the same division.

So just send Michigan west and trade them for a weak West team.

There's no issue with Michigan and Ohio State not being in the same division, their rivalry can be protected, and who cares if they play a rematch in the title game.
(This post was last modified: 07-29-2018 07:57 AM by quo vadis.)
07-29-2018 07:55 AM
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RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
(07-29-2018 07:55 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  To me, the shakeup has to occur among Ohio State, Penn State, and Michigan. Can't have those three in the same division.

So just send Michigan west and trade them for a weak West team.

There's no issue with Michigan and Ohio State not being in the same division, their rivalry can be protected, and who cares if they play a rematch in the title game.

Sliding Michigan over will not do it. Its not just the teams at the top its the recruiting areas. Sliding Michigan to the west would give regular access to these recruiting grounds.
West: Michigan, Illinois
East: Ohio, New Jersey, Maryland & DC, Pennsylvania, Michigan

That's a BIG part of the problem, no pun intended. The other part of that is if you ranked the recruiting areas Michigan and Illinois this year are probably #5 & 6 and probably typically fall in that area.

Michigan vs OSU are always going to end the season so you might as well put them in the same league so you have the least chance of repeating the last regular season game in the conference championship and diminishing that game. Protect OSU vs PSU, and even if you look below that would protect 5 rivalries with crossovers if you lock in a rivalry with the team in the opposite league in the same position.

Division 1: PSU, MSU, Neb, Iowa Northwestern, Purdue, Maryland,
Division 2: OSU, Mich, Wisky, Minnesota, Illinois, Indiana, Rutgers
07-29-2018 02:03 PM
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Sparty84 Offline
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RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
(07-28-2018 11:38 PM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  @ Sparty84... Nice swipe at UofM. I hear what you are saying as far as not wanting to lose OSU and PSU. But I think moving MSU (one of the stronger teams in the league since D'Antonio got there) to the West is the only way to balance the league from a competitive standpoint.

Simply put, the West lacks heft at the top although there are the makings of a very competitive middle.
Consider my original Suggestion:
East........................West
-------------------------------------------------------
Rutgers..............................Nebraska
Maryland...........................Iowa
Penn State.........................Minnesota
Ohio State..........................Wisconsin
Michigan..........(locked).....Sparty
Indiana.............(locked).....Purdue
Illinois................(locked)...Northwestern

Rundown of the East... Big 3 plus 4 developing programs. It will be difficult for the less than 100k attendance schools to overtake the over 100k schools but with the natural talent pools that they can draw from... they have the ability to be dangerous and perhaps eventually add to the depth of the East.

Rundown of the West. This alignment is at present DEEPER than the East. The top of the West would likely be Nebraska, Sparty, and Wisconsin in no particular order. But given what we have seen as far as coaching hires (Purdue and Minnesota) and commitment of resources at a places like (Minnesota & Northwestern) and the normally dangerous Iowa... The West would be competitive from top to bottom unlike the top heavy East.

As a SPARTAN I hate Michigan as much or more than Buckeyes do. I know that's saying a lot.
07-29-2018 04:11 PM
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RE: The B1G has to gently redo division to get more Strength in the West
(07-28-2018 11:47 PM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  As far as the North/South alignments that split the Naturally Eastern and Western schools... We have to realize the era that we live in. Attendance has been falling with loss of regional rivals. We have to try to keep as much proximity in the league as possible so nearly broke college students and alumni can make a 4-5 hour roady and be back at work or school by Monday.

I agree regional games are important for traveling alums and students. But i still think letting every team get exposure east to west is good also.

What if the two divisions were set up so that every year one team from each division rotates to the other division and stays there for the 7 years or whatever till it rotates out. The next year another team rotates and so on. So you have continually shifting divisions. I think this would keep all parties happy and help build/maintain/renew rivalries and diversify recruiting grounds.
07-29-2018 04:21 PM
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