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The Elam Ending
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #41
RE: The Elam Ending
(02-17-2020 09:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-15-2018 10:20 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Has anyone been watching The Basketball Tournament? It's a winner-take-all ($2 million this year) tournament where anyone can participate, if they get enough support to be included.

The way they end games is pretty unique.

First, have no idea why people are calling this the "Elam ending" when it's just the way that basically 99% of street and park hoops games have ended since well forever. All street games are "first to X points" games, almost none are timed.

Second, I do not like the "plus seven" as it arbitrarily adds or removes points from the leading team. If you lead by 2 or 12 or 20 after the 3rd quarter or whatever, you should lead by 2 or 12 or 20 going in to the final "Elam" phase, and the other team has to make that up.

Third, the Elam thing worked wonders for the NBA All-Star Game last night, produced effort and energy in that game I haven't seen since at least the 1980s, probably 1970s.

I think you're misunderstanding the Elam Ending.

The target score for both teams is 7 points more than the leading team has when time runs out. If you lead by 12 when the clock is turned off, you have to score 7 points before your opponent scores 19 points (i.e. 7 + 12). If you lead by 20, you have to score 7 before your opponent scores 27.
02-17-2020 10:02 AM
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Post: #42
RE: The Elam Ending
(07-15-2018 11:11 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(07-15-2018 10:20 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Has anyone been watching The Basketball Tournament? It's a winner-take-all ($2 million this year) tournament where anyone can participate, if they get enough support to be included.

The way they end games is pretty unique. It's called the Elam Ending, the brainchild of a Ball State professor. The way it works is this: At the first deadball after the 4:00 mark of the fourth quarter, the clock is turned off. Seven points are added to the score of the team that's leading, and that becomes the "target score." The teams play until someone reaches that score.

So say Team A is beating Team B 73-67 when the clock stops. The target score is set at 80; whoever matches or beats 80 first wins.

The idea is to eliminate the parade of fouls in the closing minutes, because there's no benefit to fouling: if the target score is 88 and you're down 84-79, you're not going to foul and give them a chance to get closer to the target.

It seems to be working for TBT so far, though it's a small sample size.

Would this work for college basketball, or is it a bridge too far?

I don't know. I have seen a few games where the fouls benefitted very much. Especially against a team the has poor free throw shooting.

Go to the old NBA rule of 3 to make 2 as a bonus. Then there is little benefit.
02-17-2020 10:13 AM
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Post: #43
RE: The Elam Ending
(07-15-2018 10:20 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Has anyone been watching The Basketball Tournament? It's a winner-take-all ($2 million this year) tournament where anyone can participate, if they get enough support to be included.

The way they end games is pretty unique. It's called the Elam Ending, the brainchild of a Ball State professor. The way it works is this: At the first deadball after the 4:00 mark of the fourth quarter, the clock is turned off. Seven points are added to the score of the team that's leading, and that becomes the "target score." The teams play until someone reaches that score.

So say Team A is beating Team B 73-67 when the clock stops. The target score is set at 80; whoever matches or beats 80 first wins.

The idea is to eliminate the parade of fouls in the closing minutes, because there's no benefit to fouling: if the target score is 88 and you're down 84-79, you're not going to foul and give them a chance to get closer to the target.

It seems to be working for TBT so far, though it's a small sample size.

Would this work for college basketball, or is it a bridge too far?

I must confess that I know very little about basketball rules, but if fouls are such a problem, it would seem that more severe penalties should be in place to prevent them. Like, say, the opposing team gets a free point or two. That way you don't need such apparently ridiculous shenanigans as this Elam ending.
02-17-2020 10:40 AM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #44
RE: The Elam Ending
(02-17-2020 10:02 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(02-17-2020 09:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-15-2018 10:20 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Has anyone been watching The Basketball Tournament? It's a winner-take-all ($2 million this year) tournament where anyone can participate, if they get enough support to be included.

The way they end games is pretty unique.

First, have no idea why people are calling this the "Elam ending" when it's just the way that basically 99% of street and park hoops games have ended since well forever. All street games are "first to X points" games, almost none are timed.

Second, I do not like the "plus seven" as it arbitrarily adds or removes points from the leading team. If you lead by 2 or 12 or 20 after the 3rd quarter or whatever, you should lead by 2 or 12 or 20 going in to the final "Elam" phase, and the other team has to make that up.

Third, the Elam thing worked wonders for the NBA All-Star Game last night, produced effort and energy in that game I haven't seen since at least the 1980s, probably 1970s.

I think you're misunderstanding the Elam Ending.

The target score for both teams is 7 points more than the leading team has when time runs out. If you lead by 12 when the clock is turned off, you have to score 7 points before your opponent scores 19 points (i.e. 7 + 12). If you lead by 20, you have to score 7 before your opponent scores 27.

Yes, I misunderstood. Thanks for the correction.

04-cheers
02-17-2020 10:46 AM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #45
RE: The Elam Ending
(02-17-2020 10:46 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-17-2020 10:02 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(02-17-2020 09:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(07-15-2018 10:20 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Has anyone been watching The Basketball Tournament? It's a winner-take-all ($2 million this year) tournament where anyone can participate, if they get enough support to be included.

The way they end games is pretty unique.

First, have no idea why people are calling this the "Elam ending" when it's just the way that basically 99% of street and park hoops games have ended since well forever. All street games are "first to X points" games, almost none are timed.

Second, I do not like the "plus seven" as it arbitrarily adds or removes points from the leading team. If you lead by 2 or 12 or 20 after the 3rd quarter or whatever, you should lead by 2 or 12 or 20 going in to the final "Elam" phase, and the other team has to make that up.

Third, the Elam thing worked wonders for the NBA All-Star Game last night, produced effort and energy in that game I haven't seen since at least the 1980s, probably 1970s.

I think you're misunderstanding the Elam Ending.

The target score for both teams is 7 points more than the leading team has when time runs out. If you lead by 12 when the clock is turned off, you have to score 7 points before your opponent scores 19 points (i.e. 7 + 12). If you lead by 20, you have to score 7 before your opponent scores 27.

Yes, I misunderstood. Thanks for the correction.

04-cheers

No problem. You actually highlight one of the weaknesses of the Elam Ending: it's hard to understand at first.

That's not a dealbreaker. For example, it took several years for people to understand college football overtime rules. However, it's another hurdle that the Elam Ending faces in being adopted.
02-17-2020 10:49 AM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #46
RE: The Elam Ending
(02-17-2020 10:40 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(07-15-2018 10:20 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Has anyone been watching The Basketball Tournament? It's a winner-take-all ($2 million this year) tournament where anyone can participate, if they get enough support to be included.

The way they end games is pretty unique. It's called the Elam Ending, the brainchild of a Ball State professor. The way it works is this: At the first deadball after the 4:00 mark of the fourth quarter, the clock is turned off. Seven points are added to the score of the team that's leading, and that becomes the "target score." The teams play until someone reaches that score.

So say Team A is beating Team B 73-67 when the clock stops. The target score is set at 80; whoever matches or beats 80 first wins.

The idea is to eliminate the parade of fouls in the closing minutes, because there's no benefit to fouling: if the target score is 88 and you're down 84-79, you're not going to foul and give them a chance to get closer to the target.

It seems to be working for TBT so far, though it's a small sample size.

Would this work for college basketball, or is it a bridge too far?

I must confess that I know very little about basketball rules, but if fouls are such a problem, it would seem that more severe penalties should be in place to prevent them. Like, say, the opposing team gets a free point or two. That way you don't need such apparently ridiculous shenanigans as this Elam ending.

To me, the main benefit of the Elam ending isn't that it reduces the impact of free throws, it is that it forces a team to "finish". That's one thing I like about sports like baseball and tennis - no matter how big the lead you have, you can't just run out the clock on the other team, you have to finish in terms of doing stuff - get 27 outs in baseball, get to 6 games to win a set in tennis. You have to finish strong, you can't, as in boxing, dance around the ring the last 3 rounds not fighting because you built up an insurmountable lead on the cards in the first 9.

I like the idea of teams having to reach a target score. If the target is 100 points and you currently have 90, you still have to figure out a way to score 10 more to win, even if you are ahead 90 - 70. You can't dribble out the clock.
(This post was last modified: 02-17-2020 10:52 AM by quo vadis.)
02-17-2020 10:50 AM
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ken d Online
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Post: #47
RE: The Elam Ending
I seem to recall that at one time there was a rule against intentional fouling, in which the penalty was essentially the same as for a technical foul. That is, the team that was fouled got possession after shooting the free throws.

In the current NCAA rule book (which is ridiculously long and complicated) there is no mention of the term "intentional foul". It has been replaced by "flagrant 1" or "flagrant 2" fouls.

Does anyone know when this change occurred? And why?
02-17-2020 11:12 AM
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Post: #48
RE: The Elam Ending
Another way to discourage the ridiculous number of non-shooting fouls by trailing teams at the end of a game would be to borrow a rule from football: The 10-second runoff.

Here's a basketball 10-second runoff rule. If a trailing team commits a non-shooting foul in the last 2 minutes of regulation, or the last 2 minutes of an overtime period, the leading team gets two options:
(1) shoot the free throws, or
(2) inbound the ball with 10 seconds run off of the game clock and the shot clock reset.

Example: Trailing team commits a non-shooting foul with 42 seconds remaining. Leading team declines the free throws, and inbounds the ball with the clock reset to 32 seconds remaining, and the shot clock reset to its full amount of time.
02-17-2020 11:13 AM
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Post: #49
RE: The Elam Ending
I like it for All Star games and exhibitions. The current system is fine though for actual games though.
02-18-2020 04:26 PM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #50
RE: The Elam Ending
(02-17-2020 11:13 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Another way to discourage the ridiculous number of non-shooting fouls by trailing teams at the end of a game would be to borrow a rule from football: The 10-second runoff.

Here's a basketball 10-second runoff rule. If a trailing team commits a non-shooting foul in the last 2 minutes of regulation, or the last 2 minutes of an overtime period, the leading team gets two options:
(1) shoot the free throws, or
(2) inbound the ball with 10 seconds run off of the game clock and the shot clock reset.

Example: Trailing team commits a non-shooting foul with 42 seconds remaining. Leading team declines the free throws, and inbounds the ball with the clock reset to 32 seconds remaining, and the shot clock reset to its full amount of time.

That's a good idea too. Usually, I am a traditionalist, and fouling when behind in the hopes the leading team misses FTs is a time-honored hoops strategy. But not all longstanding practices are good, and it's always bothered me.

If you commit a foul, it should hurt your chances of winning, period, it should not be something that can be of benefit to you.
02-18-2020 05:14 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #51
RE: The Elam Ending
(02-17-2020 11:13 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Another way to discourage the ridiculous number of non-shooting fouls by trailing teams at the end of a game would be to borrow a rule from football: The 10-second runoff.

Here's a basketball 10-second runoff rule. If a trailing team commits a non-shooting foul in the last 2 minutes of regulation, or the last 2 minutes of an overtime period, the leading team gets two options:
(1) shoot the free throws, or
(2) inbound the ball with 10 seconds run off of the game clock and the shot clock reset.

Example: Trailing team commits a non-shooting foul with 42 seconds remaining. Leading team declines the free throws, and inbounds the ball with the clock reset to 32 seconds remaining, and the shot clock reset to its full amount of time.

I like the premise, but would probably go to 5 seconds.
02-18-2020 05:17 PM
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Post: #52
RE: The Elam Ending
(02-17-2020 11:12 AM)ken d Wrote:  I seem to recall that at one time there was a rule against intentional fouling, in which the penalty was essentially the same as for a technical foul. That is, the team that was fouled got possession after shooting the free throws.

In the current NCAA rule book (which is ridiculously long and complicated) there is no mention of the term "intentional foul". It has been replaced by "flagrant 1" or "flagrant 2" fouls.

Does anyone know when this change occurred? And why?

It used to be that if you grabbed someone it was an intentional foul, so you had to hack rather than grab, but I haven't seen that called in many years. I guess the change is why.
02-19-2020 12:10 PM
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Post: #53
RE: The Elam Ending
In football, the flying wedge was once a time honored tradition until it nearly ruined the game and was scrapped.

The foul the worst shooter strategy has become a major turn off for some fans and it might be time to let it go the way of the flying wedge.
02-19-2020 08:37 PM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #54
RE: The Elam Ending
(02-19-2020 08:37 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  In football, the flying wedge was once a time honored tradition until it nearly ruined the game and was scrapped.

The foul the worst shooter strategy has become a major turn off for some fans and it might be time to let it go the way of the flying wedge.

Agreed, just because something has been "that way" for a long time doesn't mean it is a good thing. Fouling in hope the opponent misses FTs isn't good for the game, IMO.
02-19-2020 08:51 PM
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Post: #55
The Elam Ending
I’m a big proponent of this, and not only for the reasons already mentioned.

So often the final score doesn’t reflect how close the game actually was, when a team down only a few points has to resort to fouling to get possessions, and then loses by a larger margin.

Since the scoring margin is actually used in the team metrics now, that’s another argument for using Elam.

I’d do two 18 minute halves followed by the decisive “final jeopardy” round to +7.

Or better yet, three 10-minute quarters followed by a fourth quarter played to a target score based on the average score so far. A 60-60 game after 3Q would play to 80 points. But so would a 70-50 game. So if it’s really a blow out, it gets everybody home earlier. At the same time, I’d rather try to come back from a 20 point deficit by knowing I have to simply outscore the other guys 30-9 than having to worry about the clock, too. (But mercifully, an 80-40 game after 3Q would end immediately)
02-27-2020 05:58 AM
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