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Interesting NCAA Division 1 Men's Basketball Graduation Percentage Rate
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BearcatMan Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Interesting NCAA Division 1 Men's Basketball Graduation Percentage Rate
(05-07-2018 08:02 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  
(05-04-2018 01:17 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Toledo has always been one of the best in terms of athletics academics. What MO'B and the staff in Larimer have done in recent years is extremely commendable...I believe UT was one of only 9 schools in NCAA Division I to have an APR score above 970 in every sport over the last 5 years.

Without rehashing the entire point of GPA relativity, the additional resources for that "success" are paid for by one of the higher student fees in the state, no?

There's movement on this issue. Statewide and on campus. I'm just the messenger.

AS I UNDERSTAND IT: While the athletic Dept. or the university might choose to promote this team GPA in order to recruit or glad hand some pay raises, to other students it might (well, does) say, how much better they might be able to perform with access to the same resources. These are resources the general student pays for and has no access to. Correct and fair?

And the university is also considering return to "athletic dorms." Do I recall that correctly?

"Higher" in a manner of speaking, yes. I believe they are 5th in percentage of athletics budget being pulled from the general fee, but the fees themselves are relatively low in comparison to other institutions.

Also, as someone who has previously worked at the University (with no degrees from UT unfortunately), I would agree with your third paragraph in principle, but also realize the effect that having athletics as a part of the institution has on our University as a whole. If we stripped away athletics, we would lost our primary form of promotion/advertising outside of the immediate vicinity of Toledo and it would further impact enrollment. In the latest Ruffalo, Noel, Levitz study on admissions factors, students stated that student life opportunities and campus life were the two primary factors in their decision to attend a given institution (OVER financial factors oddly enough, which could be a completely different discussion given our current discount rate). Pulling out of athletics would diminish those factors quite considerably, and at least at UT students do get to take part in athletics with no added cost (tickets)...so there are some "positives" to the situation, but there are certainly "better" ways to use that money in an academic sense given how strapped we are on the academic side of things financially.

As for your last comment, every conversation I have had with Brad and Matt (in Res Life) in recent months and years leads me to believe you're way off base in your assumption of "athletics dorms' becoming a thing again. Due to the 2-year occupancy requirement and diminishing capacity with the impending removal of Carter, there simply would not be a place where they could strictly cut out all students who are not athletes. They are placed in "pods" (as I was at my undergraduate institution while on the soccer team), but there simply is no way to justify completely roping off a dorm for athletics, especially given how big a positive selling point Honors Academic Village, the renovated Scott and Tucker Halls, and Ottawa Halls are to incoming students.

I can also tell you from experience as a student athlete at another institution of higher repute, athletes are treated with kid gloves everywhere, it's not a UT specific thing. Is there GPA inflation here that's well above where things are elsewhere? Abso-fricking-lutely. Hell, anecdotally speaking, I was a top ten graduate of an engineering discipline in my undergrad out of a class of roughly 120 with a 3.52...that GPA would put me in the 30-40 out of roughly 70 in that same discipline at UT, and it isn't because of student quality. A lot of that falls on the faculty, it truly isn't the students' fault here...and there has been a significant upturn in curriculum review out of the Provost's and VPAA's offices that will hopefully help build better courses and better graduates.
(This post was last modified: 05-08-2018 09:07 AM by BearcatMan.)
05-08-2018 08:51 AM
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indianasniff Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Interesting NCAA Division 1 Men's Basketball Graduation Percentage Rate
(05-06-2018 09:25 AM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  
(05-04-2018 03:57 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  I'll be the sour puss.

UT's academic rating is so low. Grade inflation? There seemed to be a lot of show up, get an 'A' classes. Never had one at the first alma mater, but UT? lol. Add in the same tests semester after semester and the files, the tutors that compile at study tables... I'm not convinced of the credibility. And it's not worth promoting a dubious number when you'd be comparing UT to obviously far superior academic institutions. We're not comparing MAC to non-Miami MAC.

I wouldn't even promote its teams' average GPA. WAY too many ways to play that number. And not just at UT. Play the success of the graduates. If it's there, it can't be denied. Get too haughty over those athletic team numbers, you give even one competitor reason to challenge these athletic team numbers.... you lose.

AGP? Someone tells me "100%" and I'll say, look at the transfers.

Promote the concrete. Successful academic graduates, I presume they exist. Those programs, which are nationally rated by credible organizations. Diversity of offerings. Don't grab at weak straws, when you don't need to.

Oh ffs, if it is so damn easy, why doesn't everyone graduate with 4.0s? If there are "a lot of show up, get an 'A' classes", then way more people should be graduating with 3.0-3.5-4.0s.

And your pretty much just giving all UT graduates a slap in the face with your comments. Congrats, a**hole.

+2
05-08-2018 12:27 PM
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Rocket Pirate Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Interesting NCAA Division 1 Men's Basketball Graduation Percentage Rate
(05-07-2018 11:19 AM)NashHall61 Wrote:  
(05-07-2018 09:59 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-07-2018 08:25 AM)PTLROCK Wrote:  
(05-06-2018 07:27 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  
(05-04-2018 03:57 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  I'll be the sour puss.

UT's academic rating is so low. Grade inflation? There seemed to be a lot of show up, get an 'A' classes. Never had one at the first alma mater, but UT? lol. Add in the same tests semester after semester and the files, the tutors that compile at study tables... I'm not convinced of the credibility. And it's not worth promoting a dubious number when you'd be comparing UT to obviously far superior academic institutions. We're not comparing MAC to non-Miami MAC.

I wouldn't even promote its teams' average GPA. WAY too many ways to play that number. And not just at UT. Play the success of the graduates. If it's there, it can't be denied. Get too haughty over those athletic team numbers, you give even one competitor reason to challenge these athletic team numbers.... you lose.

AGP? Someone tells me "100%" and I'll say, look at the transfers.

Promote the concrete. Successful academic graduates, I presume they exist. Those programs, which are nationally rated by credible organizations. Diversity of offerings. Don't grab at weak straws, when you don't need to.

Went to a top 15 University. transferred to UT after 2 years because a parent's heath issues. Top UT students can compete at top schools. Programs like Engineering, Finance, Pharmacy, etc. aren't show up programs. You see that some of the Rocket recruits have Ivy League offers coming in.

I totally agree with this. “Top UT students can compete at top schools. Programs like Engineering, Finance, Pharmacy, etc. aren't show up programs. You see that some of the Rocket recruits have Ivy League offers coming in.”

I trained pharmacy students from multiple Universities of all sizes. UT students are sharp and well trained. The UT students were excellent students from an intelligence and work ethic perspective. The comments made against UT students and faculty were inappropriate and reflect a lack of true understanding.

I'll just say this in support...there's a reason why UT has been #1 in placement rates for Engineering grads in the state of Ohio each of the last 6 years. This is coming from a guy with engineering degrees from two other institutions in the State (Cincinnati and Ohio State).

RE: Eastisbest: Won't even call u an a..hole! After reading a good number of your posts I'm often surprised at your constant negativity on any issue related to praising UT. This often leads me to move on to the next post after seeing your name. I've received advanced degrees from two universities (Seton Hall and Rutgers) after my time at Toledo. I can definitely say that a lot of what I do in my present job I learned from my time in Toledo!

What's stunning is there another person who has degrees from both Toledo and Seton Hall! Though my degree order was the opposite (undergrad at SHU, grad at UT). I know of one other person who did SHU undergrad and UT grad (medical) a couple years after me, but it's always fun to see somebody else with this unique combination of degrees.
05-08-2018 12:57 PM
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eastisbest Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Interesting NCAA Division 1 Men's Basketball Graduation Percentage Rate
(05-08-2018 08:51 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-07-2018 08:02 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  
(05-04-2018 01:17 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Toledo has always been one of the best in terms of athletics academics. What MO'B and the staff in Larimer have done in recent years is extremely commendable...I believe UT was one of only 9 schools in NCAA Division I to have an APR score above 970 in every sport over the last 5 years.

Without rehashing the entire point of GPA relativity, the additional resources for that "success" are paid for by one of the higher student fees in the state, no?

There's movement on this issue. Statewide and on campus. I'm just the messenger.

AS I UNDERSTAND IT: While the athletic Dept. or the university might choose to promote this team GPA in order to recruit or glad hand some pay raises, to other students it might (well, does) say, how much better they might be able to perform with access to the same resources. These are resources the general student pays for and has no access to. Correct and fair?

And the university is also considering return to "athletic dorms." Do I recall that correctly?

you're way off base in your assumption of "athletics dorms' becoming a thing again.

I'm "way off base" to ask a question of clarification? Or did you mistake a "?" for an "assumption?"

"PODS" from the perspective of other students, the ones paying the fees, you think that might be seen as just a bit of semantics? Rhetorical. We know they would. Okay then, Athletic "Pods" instead of "dorms."

"Fees" I've seen everywhere from fifth from the bottom to near the top. What seems a general trend is "fees" becoming a larger percentage of the bottom line to keep the programs afloat.

I'll repeat the question.

Is it fair to say, those fees help pay for the extra academic support available to athletes, additional support sources NOT provided to the general population? Correct or not, what do you think the belief is amongst the general student population?
(This post was last modified: 05-08-2018 03:46 PM by eastisbest.)
05-08-2018 03:16 PM
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eastisbest Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Interesting NCAA Division 1 Men's Basketball Graduation Percentage Rate
(05-08-2018 12:27 PM)indianasniff Wrote:  
(05-06-2018 09:25 AM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  
(05-04-2018 03:57 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  I'll be the sour puss.

UT's academic rating is so low. Grade inflation? There seemed to be a lot of show up, get an 'A' classes. Never had one at the first alma mater, but UT? lol. Add in the same tests semester after semester and the files, the tutors that compile at study tables... I'm not convinced of the credibility. And it's not worth promoting a dubious number when you'd be comparing UT to obviously far superior academic institutions. We're not comparing MAC to non-Miami MAC.

I wouldn't even promote its teams' average GPA. WAY too many ways to play that number. And not just at UT. Play the success of the graduates. If it's there, it can't be denied. Get too haughty over those athletic team numbers, you give even one competitor reason to challenge these athletic team numbers.... you lose.

AGP? Someone tells me "100%" and I'll say, look at the transfers.

Promote the concrete. Successful academic graduates, I presume they exist. Those programs, which are nationally rated by credible organizations. Diversity of offerings. Don't grab at weak straws, when you don't need to.

Oh ffs, if it is so damn easy, why doesn't everyone graduate with 4.0s? If there are "a lot of show up, get an 'A' classes", then way more people should be graduating with 3.0-3.5-4.0s.

And your pretty much just giving all UT graduates a slap in the face with your comments. Congrats, a**hole.

+2

What is a "slap in the face" of a UT graduate would be another UT graduate not able to participate in critical analysis. Not one word of MY post was derogatory towards another student. My comments were about coursework, instruction and product as perceived by ranking sources. So, unlike silver spoon, SHOW your education at work.

Debate me. Challenge me. Joining the moron that rants only adds to the credibility of my observations. THAT's a slap to your fellow alums. Discuss YOUR experiences and observations. That's the best way to counter. Not drivel down the chin ranting and name calling.

I never provided my credentials. Notice, none of your fellow alums (at last perusal, it's kind of a one-sided outgunned show here), challenged them or even asked for them? Of course, it's an anonymous message board, anyone could lie but I'd at least want to know the credibility of someone with observation/opinion different than mine, before telling them they're wrong.

Before giving +2 to someone filled with so many logical fallicies, might consider the damage someone like that is doing to your degree.

My comments are based upon personal observation. They're not a slap to any student. They are not a comment on the work ethic of any student. Your experience may be different. Do you think your university puts out experience surveys to get back slaps or to receive critical response?



KNOW the difference is you really want to be, what the University presumes to produce.

There is almost NOTHING in MY post that many of your own in-major professors wouldn't agree with. I know this. 03-wink
05-08-2018 03:30 PM
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PaulJ Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Interesting NCAA Division 1 Men's Basketball Graduation Percentage Rate
(05-08-2018 03:16 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  
(05-08-2018 08:51 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-07-2018 08:02 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  
(05-04-2018 01:17 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Toledo has always been one of the best in terms of athletics academics. What MO'B and the staff in Larimer have done in recent years is extremely commendable...I believe UT was one of only 9 schools in NCAA Division I to have an APR score above 970 in every sport over the last 5 years.

Without rehashing the entire point of GPA relativity, the additional resources for that "success" are paid for by one of the higher student fees in the state, no?

There's movement on this issue. Statewide and on campus. I'm just the messenger.

AS I UNDERSTAND IT: While the athletic Dept. or the university might choose to promote this team GPA in order to recruit or glad hand some pay raises, to other students it might (well, does) say, how much better they might be able to perform with access to the same resources. These are resources the general student pays for and has no access to. Correct and fair?

And the university is also considering return to "athletic dorms." Do I recall that correctly?

you're way off base in your assumption of "athletics dorms' becoming a thing again.

I'm "way off base" to ask a question of clarification? Or did you mistake a "?" for an "assumption?"

"PODS" from the perspective of other students, the ones paying the fees, you think that might be seen as just a bit of semantics? Rhetorical. We know they would. Okay then, Athletic "Pods" instead of "dorms."

"Fees" I've seen everywhere from fifth from the bottom to near the top. What seems a general trend is "fees" becoming a larger percentage of the bottom line to keep the programs afloat.

I'll repeat the question.

Is it fair to say, those fees help pay for the extra academic support available to athletes, additional support sources NOT provided to the general population? Correct or not, what do you think the belief is amongst the general student population?

I will say that the additional support services provided to the general population (advising, tutoring, writing center, career services, peer mentoring, study groups etc...) are extremely underutilized by the general student population even though they are free, available and widely promoted.
05-08-2018 03:54 PM
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eastisbest Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Interesting NCAA Division 1 Men's Basketball Graduation Percentage Rate
(05-08-2018 03:54 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  I will say that the additional support services provided to the general population (advising, tutoring, writing center, career services, peer mentoring, study groups etc...) are extremely underutilized by the general student population even though they are free, available and widely promoted.

and who or what do you blame...? See as the cause? Or is it bad decision making by the University to provide them in the first place? Do you have any evidence for or against those services being of the same quality? They have the same qualifications for staffing those services for the general population as they do for the athletes or is getting into the athletic services gig perhaps a bit more... competitive?
(This post was last modified: 05-08-2018 05:32 PM by eastisbest.)
05-08-2018 05:28 PM
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BearcatMan Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Interesting NCAA Division 1 Men's Basketball Graduation Percentage Rate
(05-08-2018 03:16 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  
(05-08-2018 08:51 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-07-2018 08:02 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  
(05-04-2018 01:17 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Toledo has always been one of the best in terms of athletics academics. What MO'B and the staff in Larimer have done in recent years is extremely commendable...I believe UT was one of only 9 schools in NCAA Division I to have an APR score above 970 in every sport over the last 5 years.

Without rehashing the entire point of GPA relativity, the additional resources for that "success" are paid for by one of the higher student fees in the state, no?

There's movement on this issue. Statewide and on campus. I'm just the messenger.

AS I UNDERSTAND IT: While the athletic Dept. or the university might choose to promote this team GPA in order to recruit or glad hand some pay raises, to other students it might (well, does) say, how much better they might be able to perform with access to the same resources. These are resources the general student pays for and has no access to. Correct and fair?

And the university is also considering return to "athletic dorms." Do I recall that correctly?

you're way off base in your assumption of "athletics dorms' becoming a thing again.

I'm "way off base" to ask a question of clarification? Or did you mistake a "?" for an "assumption?"

"PODS" from the perspective of other students, the ones paying the fees, you think that might be seen as just a bit of semantics? Rhetorical. We know they would. Okay then, Athletic "Pods" instead of "dorms."

"Fees" I've seen everywhere from fifth from the bottom to near the top. What seems a general trend is "fees" becoming a larger percentage of the bottom line to keep the programs afloat.

I'll repeat the question.

Is it fair to say, those fees help pay for the extra academic support available to athletes, additional support sources NOT provided to the general population? Correct or not, what do you think the belief is amongst the general student population?

Unawareness and apathy. Very few of the students care either way honestly. You can look up the full University Budgetary Allocation to see, but I believe a majority of the student fees go towards the operations and facilities maintenance, not the staff positions (could be wrong, but that's how it was in the past). I know there was previous legislation within the OBOR that stated the AD's had to provide scholarship funding from their own coffers first, so the scholarship side of things is typically handled from the operational revenue not student fees (outside of Akron, where their operational revenue is damn near zero).

Also...the athletic pods are the same as every other Living Learning Community that any student can choose to live in for their major or involvement...so yeah, you're off base in thinking things are different for athletes there.

Lastly, the Student-Athlete Academic Services Office has two advisors and a tutoring coordinator in it...so three full-time staff. Roughly $120,000 made between the three of them per year. That's $6.50/year from every student (if they're even funded from general fees, I would need to check the Allocation to be certain)...again, I don't think they care. To compare, there are advisors for literally every department on campus, the Learning Enhancement Center, and every student has success coaches as well, so every student on campus has the same exact support that athletes do....they simply aren't required to utilize them in order to remain a student athlete, so they don't see the benefits the way the athletes do (good point PaulJ). The bulk of the student fee goes towards facilities maintenance and operations, not the academic services, so this is kind of a moot point.

To add to your other point on the reply to PaulJ, all academic advising positions have the exact same salary range and minimum requirements across the board at UT, so there is no difference in incentive to "get the best". There were 112 applicants for the last Success Coaching job in the University College (general population) and only 22 for the last academic advising job in OSAAS, so once again, no, there is not an increase in competition. There is also much more work on their end as the Athletics Compliance Office is a much more needy beast than most Student Services Offices in the colleges...but again, this is just actual information and not opinion, so it may not be relevant in this discussion.
05-09-2018 08:43 AM
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BearcatMan Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Interesting NCAA Division 1 Men's Basketball Graduation Percentage Rate
(05-08-2018 05:28 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  
(05-08-2018 03:54 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  I will say that the additional support services provided to the general population (advising, tutoring, writing center, career services, peer mentoring, study groups etc...) are extremely underutilized by the general student population even though they are free, available and widely promoted.

and who or what do you blame...? See as the cause? Or is it bad decision making by the University to provide them in the first place? Do you have any evidence for or against those services being of the same quality? They have the same qualifications for staffing those services for the general population as they do for the athletes or is getting into the athletic services gig perhaps a bit more... competitive?

To directly reply...student athletes are REQUIRED to take advantage of those resources and general students are not (and we all know how most teens to 20-somethings like to do things they're not required to do...). That's the culprit, nothing more.
05-09-2018 08:44 AM
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PaulJ Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Interesting NCAA Division 1 Men's Basketball Graduation Percentage Rate
(05-08-2018 05:28 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  
(05-08-2018 03:54 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  I will say that the additional support services provided to the general population (advising, tutoring, writing center, career services, peer mentoring, study groups etc...) are extremely underutilized by the general student population even though they are free, available and widely promoted.

and who or what do you blame...? See as the cause? Or is it bad decision making by the University to provide them in the first place? Do you have any evidence for or against those services being of the same quality? They have the same qualifications for staffing those services for the general population as they do for the athletes or is getting into the athletic services gig perhaps a bit more... competitive?

Many students fail to take advantage of the services provided to them. Never said or implied that UT should not be providing these services, they are well supported and staffed, students just choose not to seek their assistance. The advantage the athletics have is more control over student athletes including required advising and academic support services. The general student population has more freedom and self choice to decide whether to take advantage of the services. Not just an issue at UT but broader longer term challenge in colleges is how to get students to make better use of the support services provided to them.
05-09-2018 08:46 AM
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