I was disappointed to learn that, as a result of changes to tax laws, seat licenses will now be a separate donation from regular Tribe Club donations. Understanding that this is a very minor difference to many donors, the result is that a $250 per seat license will be required for my basketball seats, over an above the donation I make to Tribe Club. I could certainly reduce my Tribe Club giving by that amount, but I'll lose the very nice parking spot I've had. Yes, this is a minor, even trivial concern, especially for those who donate far more than I do, but I wish there had been another way to get to compliance with the non-deductibility of ticket related donations.

(04-27-2018 08:50 AM)3xTribe Wrote:  I was disappointed to learn that, as a result of changes to tax laws, seat licenses will now be a separate donation from regular Tribe Club donations. Understanding that this is a very minor difference to many donors, the result is that a $250 per seat license will be required for my basketball seats, over an above the donation I make to Tribe Club. I could certainly reduce my Tribe Club giving by that amount, but I'll lose the very nice parking spot I've had. Yes, this is a minor, even trivial concern, especially for those who donate far more than I do, but I wish there had been another way to get to compliance with the non-deductibility of ticket related donations.

I, for one, do not find your concerns to be trivial at all. I fully understand the need, from a record keeping standpoint, for the College to now treat a mandatory contribution required to purchase a season ticket as a separate contribution, a license fee so to speak, because the new tax law does not allow you to deduct that portion of your contribution on your tax return. The College, therefore, needs to separate the contributions into two buckets so that you only get credit for a tax deductible contribution for any contributions not related to the required license. What concerns me, however, is that I feel that the College is taking advantage of this change in tax law as a way to indirectly squeeze donors into upping their annual contributions.

I am certainly no expert on fund accounting for governmental entities, and it has been decades since I used my license to actually work in a CPA firm, but something just does not seem right about how the College will apparently choose to recognize the various transactions resulting from these changes when looking at us as donors.

I actually called the Tribe Club this morning looking for clarification and answers to specific questions. I got the impression that the questions that I was asking had either not yet been fully addressed by the Tribe Club, or the questions result in uncomfortable answers which the Tribe Club has not been very transparent in addressing with Tribe Club donors. As best as I can understand, I get the impression that the license fee revenues will now filter into Tribe Athletics the same way that ticket sale revenue is accounted for. The W&M student athlete is going to get the same benefit from dollars that I spend on this fee that they would if I gave the money directly to the Tribe Club. But instead of my giving the money to the Tribe Club, and the Tribe Club using it to help fund Tribe Athletics, it bypasses the Tribe Club altogether and goes directly, as I understand it, to Tribe Athletics. If, as 3XTribe suggests, I simply carve up my annual contribution into 2 parts, I will still be supporting Tribe Athletics the same way that I have in the past, but the Tribe Club will not be getting as much credit for this contribution and my standing as a Tribe Club contributor will go down.

in all fairness, I was pounding the individual on the other end of the phone with questions that he/she had either not yet considered or was uncomfortable answering, but the answer that I got was that the folks in the Tribe Club were hopeful that donors such as me would continue to make the same Tribe Club related contributions that we have in the past so that the student athletes would not suffer as a result of the tax law change.

Let's be clear here. The W&M student athlete is only negatively impacted by the new tax law if I decide that the total amount that I am willing to pay for a seat license plus a Tribe Club donation is less than it was before because I am unwilling to make a payment on which I do not get a tax deduction. But as long as I am contributing the same amount of money, even if part of it is for a license that I cannot deduct, the student athlete has not been impacted one iota by the mix of my disbursements, but I am now less of a donor in the eyes of the Tribe Club.

What little bit that I could find on the Tribe Club website about this issue was something that Bobby Dwyer put out there in late 2017 encouraging donors to consider making their full 2017-18 Tribe Club contribution prior to 12/31/17 so that you got one more year of tax deductibility on the portion related to season ticket requirements, prior to the 2018 tax law change. Very good tax advice indeed. Just because the College has to account for the "license" portion of my disbursement separately does not mean that they cannot continue to give me credit for my overall disbursements to Tribe Athletics.

I have no problem forcing me to make a contribution to Tribe Athletics in order to have a right to purchase a season ticket. Never have. Forcing me to make that contribution, however, and not giving me credit as a contributor, is quite a different matter, and has absolutely nothing to do with the intended impact of the new tax law.

(04-27-2018 12:13 PM)WMTRIBE75 Wrote:  As best as I can understand, I get the impression that the license fee revenues will now filter into Tribe Athletics the same way that ticket sale revenue is accounted for. The W&M student athlete is going to get the same benefit from dollars that I spend on this fee that they would if I gave the money directly to the Tribe Club. But instead of my giving the money to the Tribe Club, and the Tribe Club using it to help fund Tribe Athletics, it bypasses the Tribe Club altogether and goes directly, as I understand it, to Tribe Athletics.

This is precisely my understanding.

<lawyerNerdTalk>
Any tax lawyer want to opine on whether we're an "institution of higher education" as defined in 3304(f)? Read literally, we're not, because we occasionally admit students without high school degrees. And if we're not, the whole dang ticket rule wouldn't apply to us.
</lawyerNerdTalk>

There is one other angle that might cause concern. Season ticket holders who only gave enough to the Tribe Club to cover the seat license for their parquet or box seats - $100 per seat last year - will now be on the hook for $250 per seat in addition to the ticket price. That's an extra $400 for a pair of seats. I have no idea what percentage of season ticket holders give only enough to cover the seat license, but that might be a serious case of sticker shock for some. Will this cut into the season ticket base?

(04-27-2018 12:44 PM)3xTribe Wrote:  There is one other angle that might cause concern. Season ticket holders who only gave enough to the Tribe Club to cover the seat license for their parquet or box seats - $100 per seat last year - will now be on the hook for $250 per seat in addition to the ticket price. That's an extra $400 for a pair of seats. I have no idea what percentage of season ticket holders give only enough to cover the seat license, but that might be a serious case of sticker shock for some. Will this cut into the season ticket base?

It sure will effect ticket sales. I still remember in the 80's when the mandatory contribution took place, hundreds if not a couple thousand of our younger fans quit coming. Many just could not afford it. Now that I have retired, I will probably give up one of my seats. No place for my coat, LOL!!

(04-27-2018 12:44 PM)3xTribe Wrote:  There is one other angle that might cause concern. Season ticket holders who only gave enough to the Tribe Club to cover the seat license for their parquet or box seats - $100 per seat last year - will now be on the hook for $250 per seat in addition to the ticket price. That's an extra $400 for a pair of seats. I have no idea what percentage of season ticket holders give only enough to cover the seat license, but that might be a serious case of sticker shock for some. Will this cut into the season ticket base?

My actual introduction to what is now known as the Tribe Club came what now is probably decades ago when they started requiring the $100 per seat contribution for the parquet seats. The football season tickets, which I started getting about a decade ago, work a bit differently in that you have to make a certain annual contribution to the Tribe Club, dictated by where your seats are, in order to have the right to purchase up to 4 season tickets. And if you then also had basketball season tickets, you did not have to pay the $100 per seat contribution as long as the contribution that you were making to get your football tickets exceeded what you would have had to pay to get the basketball tickets.

For what it is worth, I was told this morning that if you paid the license fee for football you would not have to pay it for basketball.

I received the e- mail yesterday.

I've reviewed these posts.

Despite my W&M education, I'm totally confused.

I'm in 106 for football. It cost me $100 per 4 tix last year. It's going to cost me $100 per 4 tix this year. The only difference is that this year the $100 is not tax deductible.

What am I missing?

(04-27-2018 03:24 PM)nj alum Wrote:  I received the e- mail yesterday.

I've reviewed these posts.

Despite my W&M education, I'm totally confused.

I'm in 106 for football. It cost me $100 per 4 tix last year. It's going to cost me $100 per 4 tix this year. The only difference is that this year the $100 is not tax deductible.

What am I missing?

You may not be missing anything. I have flown off the handle without having even read the email yet. HOWEVER, what I am afraid of can be explained with a very simple example.

Let's say that you have been giving the Tribe Club $500 annually. Under the old rules, this $500 contribution was more than enough to allow you to cover the $100 per ticket contribution that you apparently have to make to purchase your 4 football season tickets. AND, under the old rules, the same $500 contribution would be more than enough to cover the $300 that you have to contribute in order to buy 3 basketball season tickets in the parquet section. AND, under the old tax laws, you got to deduct 80% on the portion of your contribution that you had to make in order to get tickets, and 100% of the remainder.

Under the new arrangement, I have gone off the handle without knowing about the email and assumed that you would now need to pay $400 in license fees for your 4 football tickets, $750 in license fees (3X$250) for your three basketball season tickets, not be able to deduct a dime(that would definitely be the case under the new tax law) AND......the Tribe club would consider you to be a ZERO dollar donor for the year because they do not get credit for the license fees!!! So you become persona non grata with the Tribe Club unless you give them your normal annual contribution in addition to all of the license fees that you are paying out.

Once again, perhaps I should not have gone off without getting all of my facts straight. But I did get a queasy feeling when I called the Tribe Club office this morning.

Interesting.

So my $100 per four tix goes to W&M, and not the Tribe Club.

The ramifications of the $$ going to W&M, and not the Tribe Club are ...?

Not trying to be obtuse, but what is the reality here? What's different?

I get the non-deductibility, but other than that, what else is going on here?

Somebody hit me over the head please, and enlighten me!

:-)

Football tickets carry a single seat license fee of $100 for up to 4 tickets. Basketball seats require $250 per seat plus the ticket price. The separate donation to the Tribe Club is what is required for Tribe Club perks like parking and halftime reception. The seat license fee does not apply to this, but does accrue loyalty points.

I'm not a tax lawyer. I'm not an accountant.

Disclaimer aside, I dont think you can write off money spent on services rendered unless it's a business expense.

I'm tired, so maybe I'm reading this thread through droopy eyes, but is the OP's complaint that he can't claim the "donation" that allows him to sit in special seats?

I'll have to go back and reread it.


Okay, so he needs to fork over money for special seats that used to be a perk for giving a certain amount of money to Tribe Club. Tribe Club donations are tax deductible because you aren't paying for a product or service. That is totally understandable. It sucks for the OP, but I get the reasoning behind it.

So if you used to donate 1000 you could only write off 800 but now you can write off the full 1000. Im guessing if you go to the hall and write a check for your tix you could probably write donation in the memo line and still write that off.

I'm going to preface this post by saying it's predicated on the following statement being correct. The concern is that in order to maintain Tribe Club perks, there now needs to be an additional donation to Tribe Club in the amount now going to seat licenses. Basically, in order to get the same seats and Tribe Club benefits, required donations have doubled. Also, thus far, W&M's response to the new tax law has been to simply inform everyone that things are different and hope other people (ticket holders or the Tribe Club) will make any necessary changes.

For the basketball example, getting 4 tickets in the lower seats requires a $1000 seat license fee. That $1000 previously went towards Tribe Club perks as well as the seat license, whereas now you would have to separately donate an additional $1000 to the Tribe Club to get the perks you got before. The hope is that someone can clarify whether that example is correct or mistaken.

(04-28-2018 07:41 AM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  I'm going to preface this post by saying it's predicated on the following statement being correct. The concern is that in order to maintain Tribe Club perks, there now needs to be an additional donation to Tribe Club in the amount now going to seat licenses. Basically, in order to get the same seats and Tribe Club benefits, required donations have doubled. Also, thus far, W&M's response to the new tax law has been to simply inform everyone that things are different and hope other people (ticket holders or the Tribe Club) will make any necessary changes.

For the basketball example, getting 4 tickets in the lower seats requires a $1000 seat license fee. That $1000 previously went towards Tribe Club perks as well as the seat license, whereas now you would have to separately donate an additional $1000 to the Tribe Club to get the perks you got before. The hope is that someone can clarify whether that example is correct or mistaken.

100% correct. Your example is perfect. And the explanation being given for all of this is that the tax law changed.

The tax law did indeed change. Donors must now account for a contribution attached to a seat differently than those that are not. Contributions "required" in order to have the opportunity to purchase a season ticket are not deductible, while the others are. It appears that W&M has determined that the best way to account for things on their end is to assign different general ledger codes to what they now consider to be two distinctly different receipts, and that makes sense also. BUT nowhere in the tax legislation is the Tribe Club being required to not count the "seat license" contributions when divvying out Tribe Club perks, as TITB puts it. They came up with that little jewel on their own, attempting to increase overall contributions to Tribe Athletics under the guise of a tax law change, and not giving credit for the license fee contributions because they are considered to be ticket revenue and not a Tribe Club contribution. And to tell me that we hope that our loyal donors will continue to make their same Tribe Club contributions so that our "student athletes will not suffer" is sort of insulting since the newly described seat license better be going to support our student athletes also.

On a side note, I am really concerned that this change is going to result in a real punch in the gut to what have been wonderful efforts to grow men's basketball attendance. To the extent that many of our new attendees have been buying season tickets, their tickets have effectively gone from about $250 a ticket to $400 a ticket.

I'm just looking at it from the football angle. Nothing's changed, from what I can see, aside from non-deductibility. Am I correct?

Is the change strictly affecting basketball?

A thought.

All the school has to do is add Tribe Club points and Seat license points, and get to the same number re: perks that would have been the case previously.

Is it that simple?

(04-28-2018 11:29 AM)nj alum Wrote:  A thought.

All the school has to do is add Tribe Club points and Seat license points, and get to the same number re: perks that would have been the case previously.

Is it that simple?

Seems that way. Anybody with cred in the athletic department want to propose this? Still, I think there will be sticker shock for many basketball season ticket holders who don't make larger contributions already.

I currently have to donate 2500 to get my 4 chairbacks, 4 bleacherbacks and gold parking. It looks like I now have to give 1500 for seat licenses and 1500 to the gold club for an increased total of 3K.
I have sent an email to Athletics to confirm this. Not happy but I will continue to give until my wife hurts me.
Fortunately, I have corporate gift matching. I assume my employer will only match the portion going to the Tribe Club and not the seat licensing portion.

(04-28-2018 12:20 PM)DSL Wrote:  Fortunately, I have corporate gift matching. I assume my employer will only match the portion going to the Tribe Club and not the seat licensing portion.

That is probably correct. Corporate matching could be a significant factor here, too, if people hit their limit with seat licenses and can't also donate to the Tribe Club.

(04-28-2018 07:41 AM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  For the basketball example, getting 4 tickets in the lower seats requires a $1000 seat license fee. That $1000 previously went towards Tribe Club perks as well as the seat license, whereas now you would have to separately donate an additional $1000 to the Tribe Club to get the perks you got before. The hope is that someone can clarify whether that example is correct or mistaken.

You should be able to use the seat license fee for both football and basketball. Seems they now want $250 per seat for lower section plus want to limit you to 4 seats! Here is what the email link said:

"A non-tax-deductible seat license will be required for the right to purchase up to 4 (four) season tickets in the following sections at our men’s basketball games (the seat license is per seat):

Courtside $500
Parquet $250
Box $250
Mezzanine $0