(04-19-2018 01:36 PM)Memphis Blazer Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 01:28 PM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 01:24 PM)Memphis Blazer Wrote:  How is it the South went to war because they didn't want a federal government telling them what to do locally, yet it's ok for a state government to tell a local government what to do.

Correction. The North went to war. The South tried to succeed peacefully.

Well they didnt succeed or secede.

Way to deflect from the original point.

actually they did secede and then they lost the war of northern aggression for the suppression of state rights.

so so so Petty but I do not expect anything different from Middle or East Tennessee.

(04-19-2018 03:08 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 02:57 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 02:47 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 12:08 PM)VA49er Wrote:  Lincoln:

Quote:My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.

So, should we team down the Lincoln Memorial? Of course not, tearing down statues is asinine.

So is taking quotes out of context to fit a narrative.

Quote:I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them.

Lincoln and a Constitutional duty, first and foremeost, to save the Union.

With our without eliminating slavery. So, he admitted he would do it keeping slavery if he could. According to modern day SJW that's grounds for statue/memorial removal. Of course, most SJWs are totally ignorant of history and probably don't even know that little historical fact. My bet is even if you told them they would stick their heads in the sand and say, "yada yada yada". Most intellectuals know Lincoln used the Emancipation Proclamation, as a means to and ends to keep Europe from joining up with the Confederacy. I'm not saying ending slavery was wrong, not even close, just saying everything was done in a military context, not for some moral high ground, etc...

Ridiculous. You might remember how it all turned out, no...some Eman thingy?

Red, don't let present day thoughts classify historic actions. Of course slavery was terrible and it's end was just. However, take a look at Lincoln's letter to Greeley and it's painfully evident Lincoln's thinking and intentions. No idea what you are referring to with the whole "Eman" thing.

(04-19-2018 11:44 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 11:32 AM)thespiritof1976 Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 11:31 AM)MemTigers1998 Wrote:  took away $250,000 from the morons in Memphis for taking down statues of General Forrest and POTCS Jefferson Davis.

Wish it had been $2.5 Million

Robert E. Lee not only never owned a slave - but was morally opposed to slavery while General Grant not only owned slaves, but hated blacks.

Yet one is a "hero".

Quote:In a famous letter to his wife, Lee wrote that "slavery as an institution, is a moral and political evil in any country."

Viewed in isolation, that seems like a pretty firm condemnation. However, in the same letter, he said that slavery was worse for white people than it was for black people and that it was necessary for black people to endure slavery, for now anyways, so that they might be civilized.

"The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their instruction as a race... How long their subjugation may be necessary is known and ordered by a wise Merciful Providence," Lee wrote.

In his will, Lee's father-in-law had asked that the family's slaves be emancipated after he died when "expedient and proper."

Lee, acting as executor of the wealthy man's will after he died, eventually complied, but not until after the slaves were kept in bondage long enough to right the financial ship of the plantation, which had fallen on hard times.

Lee owned slaves of his own before the Civil War, as late as 1852, and considered buying more even after that, according to Elizabeth Brown Pryor's biography, which is based on Lee's writings and correspondence.

http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2...s_and.html

By 2018 standards, that does look horrible. But could you imagine turning every black slave loose to fend for themselves in 1850? A lot of them could not even speak English (No Ebonics jokes, please). We over-simplify the issues of that day, looking back 160+ years.

(04-19-2018 03:04 PM)shere khan Wrote:  “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.” Orwell

http://time.com/5219069/hofstra-universi...e-removal/

"If fascism ever comes to America, it will come in the name of liberalism." Reagan

https://sofrep.com/102050/greek-communis...ry-truman/

Orwell was even more prescient than anyone thought.

(04-19-2018 03:40 PM)geosnooker2000 Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 11:44 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 11:32 AM)thespiritof1976 Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 11:31 AM)MemTigers1998 Wrote:  took away $250,000 from the morons in Memphis for taking down statues of General Forrest and POTCS Jefferson Davis.

Wish it had been $2.5 Million

Robert E. Lee not only never owned a slave - but was morally opposed to slavery while General Grant not only owned slaves, but hated blacks.

Yet one is a "hero".

Quote:In a famous letter to his wife, Lee wrote that "slavery as an institution, is a moral and political evil in any country."

Viewed in isolation, that seems like a pretty firm condemnation. However, in the same letter, he said that slavery was worse for white people than it was for black people and that it was necessary for black people to endure slavery, for now anyways, so that they might be civilized.

"The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their instruction as a race... How long their subjugation may be necessary is known and ordered by a wise Merciful Providence," Lee wrote.

In his will, Lee's father-in-law had asked that the family's slaves be emancipated after he died when "expedient and proper."

Lee, acting as executor of the wealthy man's will after he died, eventually complied, but not until after the slaves were kept in bondage long enough to right the financial ship of the plantation, which had fallen on hard times.

Lee owned slaves of his own before the Civil War, as late as 1852, and considered buying more even after that, according to Elizabeth Brown Pryor's biography, which is based on Lee's writings and correspondence.

http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2...s_and.html

By 2018 standards, that does look horrible. But could you imagine turning every black slave loose to fend for themselves in 1850? A lot of them could not even speak English (No Ebonics jokes, please). We over-simplify the issues of that day, looking back 160+ years.

As a race they were barely removed from the savagery of the jungle and largely uncivilized, barely able to make it on their own through no fault of their own.

(04-19-2018 04:02 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 03:04 PM)shere khan Wrote:  “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.” Orwell

http://time.com/5219069/hofstra-universi...e-removal/

"If fascism ever comes to America, it will come in the name of liberalism." Reagan

https://sofrep.com/102050/greek-communis...ry-truman/

Orwell was even more prescient than anyone thought.

when i read 1984, before 1984, it served as a frightening illustration of the inherent evil of dictatorial socialism/communism. It has taken an astonishing level of regressive cultural evolution for us to reach this point.

Awwwww....snowflake Confederates upset because someone is taking away their 'participation trophies'. Maybe Memphis should put up signs saying '2nd place' or 'Loser'.

There's nothing to celebrate about Bedford Forrest. Did Robert E Lee ever live in Memphis? Did he ever command troops there? Did he ever even visit Memphis?

(04-19-2018 01:24 PM)Memphis Blazer Wrote:  How is it the South went to war because they didn't want a federal government telling them what to do locally, yet it's ok for a state government to tell a local government what to do.

Because the local government is granted jurisdiction from the state government. That is, the local government is subject to the state government. City charters are granted by the state. Local school districts operate within the jurisdiction of the state.

We are a nation of states. Those items which are not expressly granted to the federal government are left with state government.

That's exactly why it's ok for state government to tell local governments what to do.

(04-19-2018 05:04 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Awwwww....snowflake Confederates upset because someone is taking away their 'participation trophies'. Maybe Memphis should put up signs saying '2nd place' or 'Loser'.

There's nothing to celebrate about Bedford Forrest. Did Robert E Lee ever live in Memphis? Did he ever command troops there? Did he ever even visit Memphis?

Alot of places with MLK and JFK high schools even with them not living there.

I have stood your meanness as long as I intend to. You have played the part of a damn scoundrel, and if you were any part of a man I would slap your jaws and force you to resent it.

If one road led to hell and the other to Mexico, I would be indifferent which to take.

If you surrender you shall be treated as prisoners of war, but if I have to storm your works you may expect no quarter.

Abolish the Loyal League and the Ku Klux Klan; let us come together and stand together.

-Nathan Bedford Forrest


Lets play the history game, this should be fun.

(04-19-2018 11:31 AM)MemTigers1998 Wrote:  took away $250,000 from the morons in Memphis for taking down statues of General Forrest and POTCS Jefferson Davis.

Wish it had been $2.5 Million

lol I wish someone had told Memphis years ago that 250k is all it would take...that ain't crap to a city with 650,000 people and operating budget of 669 million dollars.

(04-19-2018 05:14 PM)shere khan Wrote:  I have stood your meanness as long as I intend to. You have played the part of a damn scoundrel, and if you were any part of a man I would slap your jaws and force you to resent it.

If one road led to hell and the other to Mexico, I would be indifferent which to take.

If you surrender you shall be treated as prisoners of war, but if I have to storm your works you may expect no quarter.

Abolish the Loyal League and the Ku Klux Klan; let us come together and stand together.

-Nathan Bedford Forrest


Lets play the history game, this should be fun.

going 'oops, muh bad' doesn't just make it all OK...

(04-19-2018 08:58 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 05:14 PM)shere khan Wrote:  I have stood your meanness as long as I intend to. You have played the part of a damn scoundrel, and if you were any part of a man I would slap your jaws and force you to resent it.

If one road led to hell and the other to Mexico, I would be indifferent which to take.

If you surrender you shall be treated as prisoners of war, but if I have to storm your works you may expect no quarter.

Abolish the Loyal League and the Ku Klux Klan; let us come together and stand together.

-Nathan Bedford Forrest


Lets play the history game, this should be fun.

going 'oops, muh bad' doesn't just make it all OK...

tearing down statues doesn't either

(04-19-2018 09:16 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 08:58 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 05:14 PM)shere khan Wrote:  I have stood your meanness as long as I intend to. You have played the part of a damn scoundrel, and if you were any part of a man I would slap your jaws and force you to resent it.

If one road led to hell and the other to Mexico, I would be indifferent which to take.

If you surrender you shall be treated as prisoners of war, but if I have to storm your works you may expect no quarter.

Abolish the Loyal League and the Ku Klux Klan; let us come together and stand together.

-Nathan Bedford Forrest


Lets play the history game, this should be fun.

going 'oops, muh bad' doesn't just make it all OK...

tearing down statues doesn't either

I do not agree. Forrest's will clearly states he wants his and his wife's body's to rest at Elmwood cemetery. I believe the final wishes of a dead man should be honored. His body should be returned to Elmwood and I'm sure they can find a fitting place there for the statue by the confederate sec of the cemetery.

(04-19-2018 05:11 PM)fsquid Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 05:04 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Awwwww....snowflake Confederates upset because someone is taking away their 'participation trophies'. Maybe Memphis should put up signs saying '2nd place' or 'Loser'.

There's nothing to celebrate about Bedford Forrest. Did Robert E Lee ever live in Memphis? Did he ever command troops there? Did he ever even visit Memphis?

Alot of places with MLK and JFK high schools even with them not living there.

Both of them were AMERICANS, not traitors. And neither of them founded the Klan. Please defend Forrest's veneration or Robert E Lee in a city he never lived in and possibly never even visited.

(04-19-2018 12:50 PM)q5sys Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 12:08 PM)VA49er Wrote:  Lincoln:

Quote:My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.

So, should we team down the Lincoln Memorial? Of course not, tearing down statues is asinine.

During his famous debates with Sen. Stephen Douglas, Lincoln explained to the crowd:

Quote:“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

ain' nuttin' butter dem those ironical doozies.....

(04-19-2018 01:03 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 12:20 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  So, to recap:

Memphis finds a legal route around the Tennessee Historical Commission (somehow populated by some members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans) which attempted to block the city’s choice to remove monuments of Jefferson Davis & Nathan Bedford Forrest. These statues weren't even erected during or after the Civil War, but during the Civil Rights Movement (1964) & Jim Crow era (1905) respectively, to try to make sure AA's remembered "their place."

Representatives from small towns in completely different regions/counties of the state don't like the fact that Memphis dared to decide for itself who to honor (or not honor) in its own parks, and handled it LEGALLY, so they decide to "punish" the city by withholding money for their budget. Not that the amount withheld will be life-changing - plans for the city's bicentennial will go on as planned, but it's simple-minded pettiness on part of the house to even suggest, much less approve this.

Tell you what - next time Dresden, Jonesborough, or Parkers Crossroads wants funding for something, how about we let the reps from Memphis make their budget decisions for them?

How about next time Memphis wants to do this, they get together with the people and state leaders and figure out a solution to the problem instead of trying to do something shady in the middle of the night?

x2 on this. This was done in the middle of the night and was not on the up and up. Selling the parks in a prime real estate market for $1000 each is not above board. No way this is 100%, letter of the law legal.

Did the Memphis City Council really think this was going to be no retaliation from Nashville? Grow up.

(04-20-2018 06:31 AM)JTiger Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 01:03 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 12:20 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  So, to recap:

Memphis finds a legal route around the Tennessee Historical Commission (somehow populated by some members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans) which attempted to block the city’s choice to remove monuments of Jefferson Davis & Nathan Bedford Forrest. These statues weren't even erected during or after the Civil War, but during the Civil Rights Movement (1964) & Jim Crow era (1905) respectively, to try to make sure AA's remembered "their place."

Representatives from small towns in completely different regions/counties of the state don't like the fact that Memphis dared to decide for itself who to honor (or not honor) in its own parks, and handled it LEGALLY, so they decide to "punish" the city by withholding money for their budget. Not that the amount withheld will be life-changing - plans for the city's bicentennial will go on as planned, but it's simple-minded pettiness on part of the house to even suggest, much less approve this.

Tell you what - next time Dresden, Jonesborough, or Parkers Crossroads wants funding for something, how about we let the reps from Memphis make their budget decisions for them?

How about next time Memphis wants to do this, they get together with the people and state leaders and figure out a solution to the problem instead of trying to do something shady in the middle of the night?

x2 on this. This was done in the middle of the night and was not on the up and up. Selling the parks in a prime real estate market for $1000 each is not above board. No way this is 100%, letter of the law legal.

Did the Memphis City Council really think this was going to be no retaliation from Nashville? Grow up.

lol....politicians and 'real solutions' is akin to oil and water.....

in their world, all that matters is 'dem constituents'....

(04-20-2018 02:15 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 05:11 PM)fsquid Wrote:  

(04-19-2018 05:04 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Awwwww....snowflake Confederates upset because someone is taking away their 'participation trophies'. Maybe Memphis should put up signs saying '2nd place' or 'Loser'.

There's nothing to celebrate about Bedford Forrest. Did Robert E Lee ever live in Memphis? Did he ever command troops there? Did he ever even visit Memphis?

Alot of places with MLK and JFK high schools even with them not living there.

Both of them were AMERICANS, not traitors. And neither of them founded the Klan. Please defend Forrest's veneration or Robert E Lee in a city he never lived in and possibly never even visited.

There was no statue of Lee. It was Davis and Forrest, both of whom (like myself and many others) lived in Memphis at one time and yet none of us ever will again.