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Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
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UofMstateU Online
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Post: #81
RE: Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
(04-19-2018 08:40 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(04-17-2018 04:37 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(04-17-2018 03:48 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(04-17-2018 03:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(04-17-2018 02:28 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  You're basically arguing against yourself. One one hand you say they don't have that much commerce that applies, and then on the other hand say it will be too expensive to handle the small amount of it!

And what localities have such complex structures that they don't even know how to figure them out? Specific names please?

Start your education here.

Experts, Democrats and Republicans are all in agreement: Colorado’s sales tax system is a tangled mess.

Business owners find it needlessly complicated, a mind-boggling array of conflicting rules and regulations that shift from city to city.

Consumers, by and large, are blissfully ignorant of its quirks. But the $2 billion a year in sales tax breaks the state offers to a seemingly random collection of special interests translates to less money for things such as roads and schools — and higher taxes on everything else.

Meanwhile, state lawmakers — spurred on by frustrated business groups — have been trying to overhaul the system since at least 1984. Instead, Colorado sales tax laws have only grown more complicated, so much so that there are now more than 700 possible combinations of sales taxes that businesses have to collect.


https://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/05/co...ax-reform/

Quote:Colorado’s one of just six states that doesn’t have a uniform tax base across the state, meaning something that’s taxed in one place might be tax-exempt elsewhere.

And I don't see anything in this article that says the state itself has a hard time figuring out the law...but maybe I missed...and I would agree that it is likely hard. That being said, they seem to be the exception to the rule and by far the worst state. Additionally, they at least recognize it and are trying to find a solution.

We havent even gotten to "special taxing districts" yet

In Harris County alone, there are now six separate crime control districts, each levying separate sales and use taxes, as well as countless other special taxing entities. Illustratively, a resident of Bellaire will pay sales taxes to the state, as well to the City of Houston and the Houston Metropolitan Transit Authority. On top of this, they will pay property taxes to the Houston Independent School District, Harris County, the Harris County Flood Control District, the Department of Education, the Houston Community College District, and the City of Houston itself. Taxpayers across the Harris County area are faced with a similarly complex web of taxing entities.

The complexities of confusion can come into play when trying to determine which taxing jurisdiction a shipping location belongs to, as some businesses and buildings split a taxing jurisdiction line.

Yeah...so, how is this hard? A resident of Bellaire will already know the state sales tax rate, the city of Houston rate, and the MTA rate. These will all be known before the start of the taxing year. Any software provider will also know this rate in plenty of time to program the software. The sum of these rates will be what is charged at purchase. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that this rate is paid to one collector, likely the state, which then remits the local portions to those localities.

Property taxes have nothing to do with this.

Never said property taxes were included.

So now you are at least admitting that every business would be required to purchase some form of software & integration to pull this off. Have any idea how much tht will be? Keep in mind that businesses do not make any money off of collecting sales tax. (Other than getting to keep the rounding errors.)
04-19-2018 09:03 AM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
Factor the expense in. That's what one does with expenses, figure them in.
04-19-2018 09:25 AM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
(04-19-2018 09:03 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 08:40 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(04-17-2018 04:37 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(04-17-2018 03:48 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(04-17-2018 03:31 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Start your education here.

Experts, Democrats and Republicans are all in agreement: Colorado’s sales tax system is a tangled mess.

Business owners find it needlessly complicated, a mind-boggling array of conflicting rules and regulations that shift from city to city.

Consumers, by and large, are blissfully ignorant of its quirks. But the $2 billion a year in sales tax breaks the state offers to a seemingly random collection of special interests translates to less money for things such as roads and schools — and higher taxes on everything else.

Meanwhile, state lawmakers — spurred on by frustrated business groups — have been trying to overhaul the system since at least 1984. Instead, Colorado sales tax laws have only grown more complicated, so much so that there are now more than 700 possible combinations of sales taxes that businesses have to collect.


https://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/05/co...ax-reform/

Quote:Colorado’s one of just six states that doesn’t have a uniform tax base across the state, meaning something that’s taxed in one place might be tax-exempt elsewhere.

And I don't see anything in this article that says the state itself has a hard time figuring out the law...but maybe I missed...and I would agree that it is likely hard. That being said, they seem to be the exception to the rule and by far the worst state. Additionally, they at least recognize it and are trying to find a solution.

We havent even gotten to "special taxing districts" yet

In Harris County alone, there are now six separate crime control districts, each levying separate sales and use taxes, as well as countless other special taxing entities. Illustratively, a resident of Bellaire will pay sales taxes to the state, as well to the City of Houston and the Houston Metropolitan Transit Authority. On top of this, they will pay property taxes to the Houston Independent School District, Harris County, the Harris County Flood Control District, the Department of Education, the Houston Community College District, and the City of Houston itself. Taxpayers across the Harris County area are faced with a similarly complex web of taxing entities.

The complexities of confusion can come into play when trying to determine which taxing jurisdiction a shipping location belongs to, as some businesses and buildings split a taxing jurisdiction line.

Yeah...so, how is this hard? A resident of Bellaire will already know the state sales tax rate, the city of Houston rate, and the MTA rate. These will all be known before the start of the taxing year. Any software provider will also know this rate in plenty of time to program the software. The sum of these rates will be what is charged at purchase. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that this rate is paid to one collector, likely the state, which then remits the local portions to those localities.

Property taxes have nothing to do with this.

Never said property taxes were included.

So now you are at least admitting that every business would be required to purchase some form of software & integration to pull this off. Have any idea how much tht will be? Keep in mind that businesses do not make any money off of collecting sales tax. (Other than getting to keep the rounding errors.)

Well no, I'm not admitting that EVERY business will need software. The smaller the business, the less likely the out of state sale and the less likely need for sophisticated software.

As I mentioned earlier, nearly every state has a sales tax already. Therefore, nearly all businesses are already familiar with collecting and remitting sales taxes.

Additionally, as I said, I'd be in favor of either a flat tax on out of state internet commerce, and/or exemptions for truly small businesses. So, I'm quite aware that this would cause a hardship on many small businesses.
04-19-2018 11:27 AM
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UofMstateU Online
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Post: #84
RE: Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
(04-19-2018 11:27 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 09:03 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 08:40 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(04-17-2018 04:37 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(04-17-2018 03:48 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  And I don't see anything in this article that says the state itself has a hard time figuring out the law...but maybe I missed...and I would agree that it is likely hard. That being said, they seem to be the exception to the rule and by far the worst state. Additionally, they at least recognize it and are trying to find a solution.

We havent even gotten to "special taxing districts" yet

In Harris County alone, there are now six separate crime control districts, each levying separate sales and use taxes, as well as countless other special taxing entities. Illustratively, a resident of Bellaire will pay sales taxes to the state, as well to the City of Houston and the Houston Metropolitan Transit Authority. On top of this, they will pay property taxes to the Houston Independent School District, Harris County, the Harris County Flood Control District, the Department of Education, the Houston Community College District, and the City of Houston itself. Taxpayers across the Harris County area are faced with a similarly complex web of taxing entities.

The complexities of confusion can come into play when trying to determine which taxing jurisdiction a shipping location belongs to, as some businesses and buildings split a taxing jurisdiction line.

Yeah...so, how is this hard? A resident of Bellaire will already know the state sales tax rate, the city of Houston rate, and the MTA rate. These will all be known before the start of the taxing year. Any software provider will also know this rate in plenty of time to program the software. The sum of these rates will be what is charged at purchase. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that this rate is paid to one collector, likely the state, which then remits the local portions to those localities.

Property taxes have nothing to do with this.

Never said property taxes were included.

So now you are at least admitting that every business would be required to purchase some form of software & integration to pull this off. Have any idea how much tht will be? Keep in mind that businesses do not make any money off of collecting sales tax. (Other than getting to keep the rounding errors.)

Well no, I'm not admitting that EVERY business will need software. The smaller the business, the less likely the out of state sale and the less likely need for sophisticated software.

yea right. Most small businesses being setup nowadays are not brick and mortars. This isnt the 1950's. This isnt freaking Mayberry.
04-19-2018 11:36 AM
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Post: #85
RE: Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
(04-19-2018 11:36 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  yea right. Most small businesses being setup nowadays are not brick and mortars. This isnt the 1950's. This isnt freaking Mayberry.

What the Republicomrade said: it's not just that it's not freaking Mayberry anymore, it's the complete inverse. The smaller the business, the MORE likely it has out-of-state sales (via the internets).

So are we going to have state Customs Police on state lines now, to make sure you pay up any difference in sales tax when you drive to a WalMart on the other side of the line?
04-19-2018 11:47 AM
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Post: #86
RE: Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
(04-19-2018 11:36 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 11:27 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 09:03 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 08:40 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(04-17-2018 04:37 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  We havent even gotten to "special taxing districts" yet

In Harris County alone, there are now six separate crime control districts, each levying separate sales and use taxes, as well as countless other special taxing entities. Illustratively, a resident of Bellaire will pay sales taxes to the state, as well to the City of Houston and the Houston Metropolitan Transit Authority. On top of this, they will pay property taxes to the Houston Independent School District, Harris County, the Harris County Flood Control District, the Department of Education, the Houston Community College District, and the City of Houston itself. Taxpayers across the Harris County area are faced with a similarly complex web of taxing entities.

The complexities of confusion can come into play when trying to determine which taxing jurisdiction a shipping location belongs to, as some businesses and buildings split a taxing jurisdiction line.

Yeah...so, how is this hard? A resident of Bellaire will already know the state sales tax rate, the city of Houston rate, and the MTA rate. These will all be known before the start of the taxing year. Any software provider will also know this rate in plenty of time to program the software. The sum of these rates will be what is charged at purchase. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that this rate is paid to one collector, likely the state, which then remits the local portions to those localities.

Property taxes have nothing to do with this.

Never said property taxes were included.

So now you are at least admitting that every business would be required to purchase some form of software & integration to pull this off. Have any idea how much tht will be? Keep in mind that businesses do not make any money off of collecting sales tax. (Other than getting to keep the rounding errors.)

Well no, I'm not admitting that EVERY business will need software. The smaller the business, the less likely the out of state sale and the less likely need for sophisticated software.

yea right. Most small businesses being setup nowadays are not brick and mortars. This isnt the 1950's. This isnt freaking Mayberry.

Careful, you just advocated for the need for this to happen. 03-wink
04-19-2018 11:50 AM
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UofMstateU Online
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Post: #87
RE: Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
(04-19-2018 11:47 AM)58-56 Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 11:36 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  yea right. Most small businesses being setup nowadays are not brick and mortars. This isnt the 1950's. This isnt freaking Mayberry.

What the Republicomrade said: it's not just that it's not freaking Mayberry anymore, it's the complete inverse. The smaller the business, the MORE likely it has out-of-state sales (via the internets).

So are we going to have state Customs Police on state lines now, to make sure you pay up any difference in sales tax when you drive to a WalMart on the other side of the line?

I believe technically its where the item of the transaction is taken possession of. So if you purchase a sofa in Mississippi, load it into your truck and drive it back to TN, then MS sales tax would apply and no tax in TN would be applicable.

If the store in MS ships it to your home in TN, then you arent charged MS sales tax because you took possession of the sofa in TN.

However, you are supposed to be reporting TN USE tax on the sofa. (Which almost noone does, primarily because noone knows they have to do it except for those who have a state sales tax license.)
04-19-2018 11:54 AM
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Post: #88
RE: Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
(04-19-2018 11:54 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 11:47 AM)58-56 Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 11:36 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  yea right. Most small businesses being setup nowadays are not brick and mortars. This isnt the 1950's. This isnt freaking Mayberry.

What the Republicomrade said: it's not just that it's not freaking Mayberry anymore, it's the complete inverse. The smaller the business, the MORE likely it has out-of-state sales (via the internets).

So are we going to have state Customs Police on state lines now, to make sure you pay up any difference in sales tax when you drive to a WalMart on the other side of the line?

I believe technically its where the item of the transaction is taken possession of. So if you purchase a sofa in Mississippi, load it into your truck and drive it back to TN, then MS sales tax would apply and no tax in TN would be applicable.

If the store in MS ships it to your home in TN, then you arent charged MS sales tax because you took possession of the sofa in TN.

However, you are supposed to be reporting TN USE tax on the sofa. (Which almost noone does, primarily because noone knows they have to do it except for those who have a state sales tax license.)

Well, I was exaggerating for effect. If you drive to MS to pick up the sofa for me just as a nice-guy favor, when does it change possession?

I haven't seen any word of this miraculous new software to calculate sales tax throughout all of known space, and I'm pretty sure if it exists it won't plug into our webstore. Which means building a new one, at a hundred-plus hours of well-paid labor.

And Trump intervening to hurt Amazon . . . if SCOTUS rules for South Dakota, the Amazon push is going to be "sell through us and we'll take care of the sales tax accounting for you." The Bezos Bastards are rooting for SD, not Wayfair.
04-19-2018 12:09 PM
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UofMstateU Online
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Post: #89
RE: Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
(04-19-2018 12:09 PM)58-56 Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 11:54 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 11:47 AM)58-56 Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 11:36 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  yea right. Most small businesses being setup nowadays are not brick and mortars. This isnt the 1950's. This isnt freaking Mayberry.

What the Republicomrade said: it's not just that it's not freaking Mayberry anymore, it's the complete inverse. The smaller the business, the MORE likely it has out-of-state sales (via the internets).

So are we going to have state Customs Police on state lines now, to make sure you pay up any difference in sales tax when you drive to a WalMart on the other side of the line?

I believe technically its where the item of the transaction is taken possession of. So if you purchase a sofa in Mississippi, load it into your truck and drive it back to TN, then MS sales tax would apply and no tax in TN would be applicable.

If the store in MS ships it to your home in TN, then you arent charged MS sales tax because you took possession of the sofa in TN.

However, you are supposed to be reporting TN USE tax on the sofa. (Which almost noone does, primarily because noone knows they have to do it except for those who have a state sales tax license.)

Well, I was exaggerating for effect. If you drive to MS to pick up the sofa for me just as a nice-guy favor, when does it change possession?

Technically where the transaction takes place.

If you were a business and resold, then you shouldt be charged sales tax in MS (you;d have to present your reseller certificate) and then you would charge tax sales tax in TN.

Quote:I haven't seen any word of this miraculous new software to calculate sales tax throughout all of known space,

The cloud based systems would be the best, where rates can be immediately updated by the software company and you wouldnt have to worry about all of the nuances.

However,

Quote:and I'm pretty sure if it exists it won't plug into our webstore. Which means building a new one, at a hundred-plus hours of well-paid labor.

Thats the biggest problem. (Other than the cost of the software/cloud service itself)


Quote:And Trump intervening to hurt Amazon . . . if SCOTUS rules for South Dakota, the Amazon push is going to be "sell through us and we'll take care of the sales tax accounting for you." The Bezos Bastards are rooting for SD, not Wayfair.

Amazon's issue is that they almost certainly should have been collecting and paying sales tax in every state, especially the ones where they had logistic drop ship warehouse located at.

The ultimate remedy, which sounds similar to what Owl was proposing, is for interstate commerce to report only to the fed. Send a flat rate to the fed, the origination and destination addresses, and let them figure out the disbursements. You web store calc would be simple. For in state sales, you are already required to calculate the rate. For interstate sales, a flat rate calculation.

You'd have to do some minimal reporting to the fed monthly or quarterly, but that would be it.

I am also a proponent of businesses getting a cut of the interstate sales tax.
04-19-2018 12:25 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
The issue for me goes beyond the 'effort' issues.

To me it touches directly on a fundamental due process issue, and *that* is the important issue. The idea that a state action can reach out and 'touch' someone (like taxes) is fundamentally predicated that there is a more than de minima contact with that state.

Quill (the case this is seeking to overturn) touches on this aspect slightly. But it is mainly based on the Commerce Clause, which gives the federal government power to regulate interstate commerce and prohibits certain state actions, such as applying duties that interfere with trade among the states. The calculus on the Commerce Clause impact may have changed with the high advent of internet sales.

But the Due Process issue is fundamental and untouched by that change. In essence, South Dakota is demanding the power to literally reach out and force people and entities that have no fundamental nexus with the state to act as their agent. That is really quite grotesque to me.

And yes, sales are made into the state. But, with no physical presence in the state, and if not specifically targeting a particular state, why the f--k should any state have the ability and power to reach out tag those who do not?

The same concept is applied all the time in relation with the ability of a court to drag a defendant into a court battle in a state, i.e. does the party have sufficient contacts with a state to subject them to the power of the state court.

If I am selling Pez dispensers with a homemade kluged together webpage based from crappy office in Southeast Houston, I am in no way effectuating any direct contact with South Dakota. Given that, why the f--k should I be forced to act as their tax agent? Granted, my physical presence in Texas probably requires me to act as such for the state of Texas. But until I have sufficient tangible, concrete, non de-minimis specific contact with South Dakota, it is an utterly grotesque misuse of the state power of South Dakota to force me to do a single ******* thing for or at the behest of South Dakota -- let alone force me be their agent to collect and remit taxes.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2018 12:48 PM by tanqtonic.)
04-19-2018 12:45 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
(04-19-2018 12:09 PM)58-56 Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 11:54 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 11:47 AM)58-56 Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 11:36 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  yea right. Most small businesses being setup nowadays are not brick and mortars. This isnt the 1950's. This isnt freaking Mayberry.

What the Republicomrade said: it's not just that it's not freaking Mayberry anymore, it's the complete inverse. The smaller the business, the MORE likely it has out-of-state sales (via the internets).

So are we going to have state Customs Police on state lines now, to make sure you pay up any difference in sales tax when you drive to a WalMart on the other side of the line?

I believe technically its where the item of the transaction is taken possession of. So if you purchase a sofa in Mississippi, load it into your truck and drive it back to TN, then MS sales tax would apply and no tax in TN would be applicable.

If the store in MS ships it to your home in TN, then you arent charged MS sales tax because you took possession of the sofa in TN.

However, you are supposed to be reporting TN USE tax on the sofa. (Which almost noone does, primarily because noone knows they have to do it except for those who have a state sales tax license.)

Well, I was exaggerating for effect. If you drive to MS to pick up the sofa for me just as a nice-guy favor, when does it change possession?

I haven't seen any word of this miraculous new software to calculate sales tax throughout all of known space, and I'm pretty sure if it exists it won't plug into our webstore. Which means building a new one, at a hundred-plus hours of well-paid labor.

And Trump intervening to hurt Amazon . . . if SCOTUS rules for South Dakota, the Amazon push is going to be "sell through us and we'll take care of the sales tax accounting for you." The Bezos Bastards are rooting for SD, not Wayfair.

Shopify (SHOP) does all that and AMZN is wary of it.
04-19-2018 01:13 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
They should be collecting sales tax.

It's time to adopt the proper standard.
04-19-2018 02:02 PM
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Post: #93
RE: Online shopping could cost you more after Supreme Court case
guys....

go to WalMart.com and put in your shipping address and they will calculate your sales tax AND your shipping charges based on zip codes.

It IS complex, but this isn't something new or something that software can't handle.

The issue is keeping the software up to date and error free, because compliance is a responsibility of the businesses. MOST mom and pops will contract through a company that will take that responsibility, but because they can't buy like Wal-Mart can, they'll lose.

If we're okay with this, I understand... but what I find funny is that many of those who are in favor of this are the same ones who protest Wal-Mart for putting mom and pop brick and mortar stores out of business.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2018 03:36 PM by Hambone10.)
04-19-2018 03:34 PM
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