(08-30-2017 03:04 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 02:47 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Two issues at hand here....

1) the 'validity' of Osteen as a religious man. This isn't really something I care to debate, but I know that he brings hope to millions of people and IS a charismatic speaker. I think some people will think he's great, and others a charlatan... and both are probably somewhat correct.

2) and the one I care to address is the complaints here.
As is noted, the parking and much of the electrical, kitchen facilities hvac etc etc for this place is well below grade.

I doubt many of the staff live anywhere near the place

I know that the 59 feeder out front would have flooded and I suspect many other roads around would have as well. This place is on the 'commercial' border between a number of VERY expensive parts of town... Avalon, West University and River Oaks. the overwhelming majority of people who cold have likely gotten to this place would have lived in high rises or homes costing a minimum of $500,000 and most probably well over $1mm and into the tens of millions. Yes, a few apartments, but not a lot.

The issue in Houston is that the dry areas were water-locked... and I just don't see why you'd bring people INTO this area if you didn't have to.

COULD it be a shelter? Of course. I'm sure they would have let people stay there if they had shown up at the door.... but you would have probably had to boat people in to staff it.

I think this is a whole lot of nothing by some people looking to cast aspersions at people whose religious beliefs or practices (under the guise of religion) they disagree with. My Methodist church is a physically bigger facility with 5 large areas (sanctuary, old sanctuary, double gym and two 'theatres') that could 'house' more people/cots than this one could (but fewer seats)... and is only about 300 yards from this one... and nobody says a word about it because my church leader doesn't have or seek a national following

The issue for me is that he lied about why he wasn't offering his church in the first place.

If he had said he couldn't get staff there that would have been one thing but he instead said it was flooded which was a lie.

Then he said he would open his doors but only after all other shelters were full.

Then he said he was never asked to open his doors.

It has nothing to do with his national following. It has to do with the amount of money he has and his unwillingness to help people when he clearly has the resources.

It has often been said that the evangelical right can and will take care of our poor and we don't need the government to step in and help with social programs.

Here is a perfect example why we need social programs because when push comes to shove, the evangelical right will not help and instead hide in their ivory towers.

There are lots of government type facilities being used as shelters and private shelters like Osteen's. Are you not aware that his facility his packed with people and all kinds of donations?

(08-30-2017 03:04 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 02:47 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Two issues at hand here....

1) the 'validity' of Osteen as a religious man. This isn't really something I care to debate, but I know that he brings hope to millions of people and IS a charismatic speaker. I think some people will think he's great, and others a charlatan... and both are probably somewhat correct.

2) and the one I care to address is the complaints here.
As is noted, the parking and much of the electrical, kitchen facilities hvac etc etc for this place is well below grade.

I doubt many of the staff live anywhere near the place

I know that the 59 feeder out front would have flooded and I suspect many other roads around would have as well. This place is on the 'commercial' border between a number of VERY expensive parts of town... Avalon, West University and River Oaks. the overwhelming majority of people who cold have likely gotten to this place would have lived in high rises or homes costing a minimum of $500,000 and most probably well over $1mm and into the tens of millions. Yes, a few apartments, but not a lot.

The issue in Houston is that the dry areas were water-locked... and I just don't see why you'd bring people INTO this area if you didn't have to.

COULD it be a shelter? Of course. I'm sure they would have let people stay there if they had shown up at the door.... but you would have probably had to boat people in to staff it.

I think this is a whole lot of nothing by some people looking to cast aspersions at people whose religious beliefs or practices (under the guise of religion) they disagree with. My Methodist church is a physically bigger facility with 5 large areas (sanctuary, old sanctuary, double gym and two 'theatres') that could 'house' more people/cots than this one could (but fewer seats)... and is only about 300 yards from this one... and nobody says a word about it because my church leader doesn't have or seek a national following

The issue for me is that he lied about why he wasn't offering his church in the first place.

If he had said he couldn't get staff there that would have been one thing but he instead said it was flooded which was a lie.

Then he said he would open his doors but only after all other shelters were full.

Then he said he was never asked to open his doors.

It has nothing to do with his national following. It has to do with the amount of money he has and his unwillingness to help people when he clearly has the resources.

It has often been said that the evangelical right can and will take care of our poor and we don't need the government to step in and help with social programs.

Here is a perfect example why we need social programs because when push comes to shove, the evangelical right will not help and instead hide in their ivory towers.

He didn't lie. His church was flooded. Its you who are spreading a lie.

(08-30-2017 03:04 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  The issue for me is that he lied about why he wasn't offering his church in the first place.

If he had said he couldn't get staff there that would have been one thing but he instead said it was flooded which was a lie.

Fit, this just isn't true. The lower levels of Greenway Plaza are among the first things in the city to flood. I guarantee that the place was flooded. The floor of the sanctuary was not I'm also sure of that, but what used to be the locker rooms and offices and storage rooms and electrical rooms (electricity and water aren't a good mix)

I'm not defending Osteen, I'm telling you what happens in that area as I am quite familiar with it.

Here is an article from Feb 2012 (not remotely hurricane season)
http://www.chron.com/neighborhood/bellai...323512.php

Note the following....
Richmond Avenue in the Greenway Plaza area so longstanding flooding problems can be corrected.

Work on this project will entail the installation of a 72-inch storm line along the north side of Richmond Avenue from Kirby to Buffalo Speedway.

Look up those areas and you will see that they are right next to this. This area floods.

Here is another from May 2015... again, not hurricane season
http://swamplot.com/flood-night-at-the-e...015-05-28/

This theater is about 2 blocks from the church

These may or may not be great examples/proof... they're just among the first that came up not related to this storm that demonstrated that the area floods... and as others have noted... half the building and ALL of the parking is below grade. The entrance is built up somewhat, but you enter the building on the concourse which is the top of the lower deck. Trucks etc enter the building on the ground floor which is well below grade.

Quote:Then he said he would open his doors but only after all other shelters were full.

Then he said he was never asked to open his doors.

Given your false assumption in #1, I see why this is troubling to you. Understanding that it actually WAS flooded, do you not now see why his place being a shelter of 'last resort' and that his 'shelter of last resort' wasn't needed makes these two comments (even if 100% true) much more palatable? Remember all the crap about Katrina and the Superdome how the 'shelter' became a problem?

Quote:It has nothing to do with his national following. It has to do with the amount of money he has and his unwillingness to help people when he clearly has the resources.

It has often been said that the evangelical right can and will take care of our poor and we don't need the government to step in and help with social programs.

Here is a perfect example why we need social programs because when push comes to shove, the evangelical right will not help and instead hide in their ivory towers.

Except that isn't true either.

(08-30-2017 03:11 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 02:47 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Two issues at hand here....

1) the 'validity' of Osteen as a religious man. This isn't really something I care to debate, but I know that he brings hope to millions of people and IS a charismatic speaker. I think some people will think he's great, and others a charlatan... and both are probably somewhat correct.

Being a Charismatic speaker and bringing general hope to people really has nothing to do with spreading the Gospel of Christ and teaching sound doctrine from the bible. We have to be careful and not fall into that way of thinking imo.

Anyone who has listened to him much knows his words and message are 95% motivational speaking and hardly ever mention Christ, the cross, the Resurrection, the need for His blood atonement for our sins, or much of anything about the Gospel or salvation at all. His approach and preaching leaves his congregation ignorant of most of the bible.

Hosea 4:6 - "My people are destroyed by a lack of knowledge...."

If we believe the bible is the Word of God, then there is a serious conflict between the Gospel and the motivational earthly/fleshly prosperity Osteen teaches.

At the same time, I have serious doubts about the OP's true intentions, and I am not criticizing Osteen over this particular situation because I don't know enough of the facts.

You're 100% correct which is why I said 'both will be somewhat correct'. I'll let people more learned in the scripture like you determine if he's a man of real faith or not... but I know lots of people who have found God through him and his father... and that's a good thing. I don't buy into the 'fire and brimstone' of some pentacostal churches nor the 'it will all be okay if you just trust God' of charismatic churches like his... I'm more of a 'God helps those who help themselves (and others)' person... but SOME people need that boost.

I don't care much for televangelists, but I can't blame him one bit for not wanting to take in evacuees, especially when you consider how so many people behaved like savages in the Super Dome after Katrina (and they had national guard present).

I consider myself a Christian as well, but I would not let a stranger stay in my house for the night because you don't know if you're going to wake up to your electronics and car being gone.

Sad state of affairs.

There is way too much commentary on this issue from people who don'y have the faintest idea WTF they are talking about. Those who know the area understand why it was handled the way that it was. Those who don't can speculate all they want to. But they don't have a clue what the actual conditions were.

Sad how there has been so much manufactured controversy that those of us in the area understand to be BS.

(08-30-2017 04:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  There is way too much commentary on this issue from people who don'y have the faintest idea WTF they are talking about. Those who know the area understand why it was handled the way that it was. Those who don't can speculate all they want to. But they don't have a clue what the actual conditions were.

Sad how there has been so much manufactured controversy that those of us in the area understand to be BS.

There's around 8000 evacuees at the George R. Brown. They need to get 4000 out of there ASAP. NRG Hall and Toyota Center are also open as Shelters. Any place that serves as a Shelter needs to have adequate restroom and shower facilities. Must be portable showers at GRB.

I heard there were over 30,000 people in shelters in SE Texas. FEMA/State of Texas need to have a long term housing solution PDQ I see a return of "FEMA Trailers" since that's the quickest possible solution.

By the way from memory of Rock Concerts at the former Summit (now LakeWood church) the restrooms were tiny with long lines.

(08-30-2017 07:42 PM)WoodlandsOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 04:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  There is way too much commentary on this issue from people who don'y have the faintest idea WTF they are talking about. Those who know the area understand why it was handled the way that it was. Those who don't can speculate all they want to. But they don't have a clue what the actual conditions were.

Sad how there has been so much manufactured controversy that those of us in the area understand to be BS.

There's around 8000 evacuees at the George R. Brown. They need to get 4000 out of there ASAP. NRG Hall and Toyota Center are also open as Shelters. Any place that serves as a Shelter needs to have adequate restroom and shower facilities. Must be portable showers at GRB.

I heard there were over 30,000 people in shelters in SE Texas. FEMA/State of Texas need to have a long term housing solution PDQ I see a return of "FEMA Trailers" since that's the quickest possible solution.

By the way from memory of Rock Concerts at the former Summit (now LakeWood church) the restrooms were tiny with long lines.

I've heard many of the shelters do not have shower facilities. They are all intended as very short term facilities.

(08-30-2017 07:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 07:42 PM)WoodlandsOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 04:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  There is way too much commentary on this issue from people who don'y have the faintest idea WTF they are talking about. Those who know the area understand why it was handled the way that it was. Those who don't can speculate all they want to. But they don't have a clue what the actual conditions were.

Sad how there has been so much manufactured controversy that those of us in the area understand to be BS.

There's around 8000 evacuees at the George R. Brown. They need to get 4000 out of there ASAP. NRG Hall and Toyota Center are also open as Shelters. Any place that serves as a Shelter needs to have adequate restroom and shower facilities. Must be portable showers at GRB.

I heard there were over 30,000 people in shelters in SE Texas. FEMA/State of Texas need to have a long term housing solution PDQ I see a return of "FEMA Trailers" since that's the quickest possible solution.

By the way from memory of Rock Concerts at the former Summit (now LakeWood church) the restrooms were tiny with long lines.

I've heard many of the shelters do not have shower facilities. They are all intended as very short term facilities.

Short term as in how long? In a couple of days after being in flood water you are going to be smelling pretty "ripe" even if you have clean clothing.

(08-30-2017 03:04 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 02:47 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Two issues at hand here....

1) the 'validity' of Osteen as a religious man. This isn't really something I care to debate, but I know that he brings hope to millions of people and IS a charismatic speaker. I think some people will think he's great, and others a charlatan... and both are probably somewhat correct.

2) and the one I care to address is the complaints here.
As is noted, the parking and much of the electrical, kitchen facilities hvac etc etc for this place is well below grade.

I doubt many of the staff live anywhere near the place

I know that the 59 feeder out front would have flooded and I suspect many other roads around would have as well. This place is on the 'commercial' border between a number of VERY expensive parts of town... Avalon, West University and River Oaks. the overwhelming majority of people who cold have likely gotten to this place would have lived in high rises or homes costing a minimum of $500,000 and most probably well over $1mm and into the tens of millions. Yes, a few apartments, but not a lot.

The issue in Houston is that the dry areas were water-locked... and I just don't see why you'd bring people INTO this area if you didn't have to.

COULD it be a shelter? Of course. I'm sure they would have let people stay there if they had shown up at the door.... but you would have probably had to boat people in to staff it.

I think this is a whole lot of nothing by some people looking to cast aspersions at people whose religious beliefs or practices (under the guise of religion) they disagree with. My Methodist church is a physically bigger facility with 5 large areas (sanctuary, old sanctuary, double gym and two 'theatres') that could 'house' more people/cots than this one could (but fewer seats)... and is only about 300 yards from this one... and nobody says a word about it because my church leader doesn't have or seek a national following

The issue for me is that he lied about why he wasn't offering his church in the first place.

If he had said he couldn't get staff there that would have been one thing but he instead said it was flooded which was a lie.

Then he said he would open his doors but only after all other shelters were full.

Then he said he was never asked to open his doors.

It has nothing to do with his national following. It has to do with the amount of money he has and his unwillingness to help people when he clearly has the resources.

It has often been said that the evangelical right can and will take care of our poor and we don't need the government to step in and help with social programs.

Here is a perfect example why we need social programs because when push comes to shove, the evangelical right will not help and instead hide in their ivory towers.

Do not put him into the Evangelical group. He preaches the prosperity gospel, which is what it is. Joel Osteen is a great motivational speaker, a preacher of the word of God, not so much.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

(08-30-2017 04:07 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  You're 100% correct which is why I said 'both will be somewhat correct'. I'll let people more learned in the scripture like you determine if he's a man of real faith or not... but I know lots of people who have found God through him and his father... and that's a good thing. I don't buy into the 'fire and brimstone' of some pentacostal churches nor the 'it will all be okay if you just trust God' of charismatic churches like his... I'm more of a 'God helps those who help themselves (and others)' person... but SOME people need that boost.

I just don't see the issue here being about whether he has ever help or inspired someone before. I never suggested the man had never helped anyone before. I'm sure he done a lot of good things and inipisred a lot of people.

The issue a lot of people have is he preaches a different Gospel than the one in the bible. We're not taking about doctrinal disagreements on side issues here, we are talking about the most central point of the entire Word of God....The Gospel of Christ.

For every person you can point to that he has inspired or lead to Christ, there are likely just as many whom he has mislead or failed to teach them about what salvation and the Gospel actually is. He teaches people to focus on success in the flesh and in the world, and to focus on their own selves and their own hopes and dreams, which is 180 degree opposite of what the bible teaches.

Christ and the apostles taught the we pick up our cross and follow Christ, not chase after our own dreams and desires in worldly or fleshly pursuits.


Colossians 3:3-4
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.



1 John 2:15-17
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

For those who are unfamiliar or confused by the term "prosperity gospel" let me help clarify so you will better understand.

We say he teaches the prosperity doctrine, but the fact is he really isn't teaching out of the bible at all. Its a motivational message by a talented speaker, motivating people to fulfill their dreams and seek fulfillment in earthly pursuits.

Its the culmination of all his sermons and overall message that are being identified as "prosperity gospel".

So don't be confused by the term and think he is teaching some debatable biblical doctrine, he really doesn't teach the bible at all. He is actually contradicting the NT and leaving his followers completely ignorant of the Gospel, salvation, and the Bible.

(08-30-2017 01:00 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  During an appearance on NBC’s “TODAY” show Wednesday, the head of Lakewood Church said its doors have “always been open.” Minutes later, he appeared to reverse course and admit that the church hadn’t initially encouraged victims to seek shelter there.

“If people were here, they’d realize there were safety issues,” Osteen said during the TV appearance. “We were just being precautious, but the main thing is the city didn’t ask us to become a shelter then.”

Link


Why doesn't he just say he made a mistake and should have helped sooner?

Many reasons not to like Osteen...

(08-30-2017 01:11 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  He's an example of why people in this country have turned their backs on religion. They have a "do as I say not as I do" attitude.

They talk the talk but they don't walk the walk.

Hes a part of the reason folks have turned their back but not because the "do as I say, not as I do"... That's everywhere. He's part of the mainstreaming of making the Gospel about man and not about God.

That guy gives me the creeps.

(08-30-2017 08:11 PM)WoodlandsOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 07:47 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 07:42 PM)WoodlandsOwl Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 04:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  There is way too much commentary on this issue from people who don'y have the faintest idea WTF they are talking about. Those who know the area understand why it was handled the way that it was. Those who don't can speculate all they want to. But they don't have a clue what the actual conditions were.

Sad how there has been so much manufactured controversy that those of us in the area understand to be BS.

There's around 8000 evacuees at the George R. Brown. They need to get 4000 out of there ASAP. NRG Hall and Toyota Center are also open as Shelters. Any place that serves as a Shelter needs to have adequate restroom and shower facilities. Must be portable showers at GRB.

I heard there were over 30,000 people in shelters in SE Texas. FEMA/State of Texas need to have a long term housing solution PDQ I see a return of "FEMA Trailers" since that's the quickest possible solution.

By the way from memory of Rock Concerts at the former Summit (now LakeWood church) the restrooms were tiny with long lines.

I've heard many of the shelters do not have shower facilities. They are all intended as very short term facilities.

Short term as in how long? In a couple of days after being in flood water you are going to be smelling pretty "ripe" even if you have clean clothing.

Don't know what their plan was. But I know neither of the shelters my family was in had showers. Really an issue for those people as they have likely been wading in flood waters contaminated by sewage.

(08-31-2017 05:29 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  That guy gives me the creeps.

He's your typical televangelist.

Talking about the creeps, have you seen the youtube segment with Kenneth Copeland and Jesse Duplantis describing why they need a private plane to spread God's message? It's so pathetic.

Here it is...if you can stomach it:

(08-31-2017 12:44 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  For those who are unfamiliar or confused by the term "prosperity gospel" let me help clarify so you will better understand.

We say he teaches the prosperity doctrine, but the fact is he really isn't teaching out of the bible at all. Its a motivational message by a talented speaker, motivating people to fulfill their dreams and seek fulfillment in earthly pursuits.

Its the culmination of all his sermons and overall message that are being identified as "prosperity gospel".

So don't be confused by the term and think he is teaching some debatable biblical doctrine, he really doesn't teach the bible at all. He is actually contradicting the NT and leaving his followers completely ignorant of the Gospel, salvation, and the Bible.

I honestly don't know what he teaches. All I'm concerned about regarding this thread is the misinformation that's being spread about his church and the flood.

(08-31-2017 01:06 AM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 01:00 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  During an appearance on NBC’s “TODAY” show Wednesday, the head of Lakewood Church said its doors have “always been open.” Minutes later, he appeared to reverse course and admit that the church hadn’t initially encouraged victims to seek shelter there.
“If people were here, they’d realize there were safety issues,” Osteen said during the TV appearance. “We were just being precautious, but the main thing is the city didn’t ask us to become a shelter then.”
Link
Why doesn't he just say he made a mistake and should have helped sooner?

Many reasons not to like Osteen...

That video pretty much misstates the so-called "prosperity gospel," at least as Osteen teaches it. It is not "God is going to give you a BMW," but rather, "God is going to help you through the time that your daughter goest through the windshield" (to use an example from the video). I don't go to Lakewood, because I know some things about it that I am not at liberty to share. But that isn't one of them.

And as for the shelter issue, the city set up shelters in places that were not only high and dry (which Lakewood is) but also easily accessible in high water (which Lakewood is not). You need both, not just one of them. I have personally seen 6 feet of water on both the SW Freeway access road and Richmond Avenue within 2-3 blocks of Lakewood, from nothing more than about a 3-4 hour rain. And you have to use one or the other to get there. So until some of the water receded, Lakewood was not an appropriate shelter location. And from what I have heard, the city discouraged its use as a shelter for that reason. They didn't want people getting out of their houses and then being stranded and losing their cars enroute to the shelter. Somebody made the point that for many of those people, their car is their biggest asset and essential to their being able to work. Getting that car under 6 feet of water on Richmond, or totally submerged in the underground parking lots at Lakewood, would not be useful outcomes.

(08-31-2017 11:37 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  That video pretty much misstates the so-called "prosperity gospel," at least as Osteen teaches it. It is not "God is going to give you a BMW," but rather, "God is going to help you through the time that your daughter goest through the windshield" (to use an example from the video).

Quote:https://www.joelosteen.com/Pages/Article...cleid=6474

"Did you know there are billions of dollars worth of unclaimed inheritances in the United States? You can search online and Google “unclaimed inheritances”; and you will find that there are unclaimed properties, assets and inheritances because the heirs can’t be found. There are people who have received inheritances, and they don’t even know it!

You have received an inheritance from Jesus that you need to claim! You have a will — His Will, His Word — that discloses and unveils your inheritance."

Then this tripe..

"God wants to make you great and multiply what you have just like He did for Abraham."

"God can bless you with things that you don’t even have to work for. Deuteronomy 6:11 says that He will give you houses that you did not build, wells that you did not dig, and vineyards that you did not plant.?"

"God will enlarge you and make your name great just as he did for Abraham."

And of course it finishes with... "If you give to this ministry, you are literally touching millions by being a part of bringing our television program to people who have never heard the Gospel."

They take the Abrahamhic promise and say "hey if you help lift up this ministry you get this too.. It's SICK! It really does say "Believe and give and you'll have rings on your finger, coats on your back..."

God wants some people not to have kids so they are sterile, he wants some people to be poor, he will let some die in obscurity....

(08-31-2017 02:26 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  And of course it finishes with... "If you give to this ministry, you are literally touching millions by being a part of bringing our television program to people who have never heard the Gospel."

And that is the part that I have trouble with. As I said, I'm not a fan.

But I've heard a lot more of the God will help you get through the daughter going through a windshield that I have of the God will give you a BMW. And I've had several friends go through devastating experiences and be totally lost, and Osteen helped them get through it. None of them has a BMW today, and none of them expect it from God or from Osteen.

I don't like the money raising elements of it. And I would never worship there as my primary church. But I don't think they are all bad, and I think they are getting an undeserved bad rap in this case.