The issue with SLU was that they were in a really good place with Majerus. He was recruiting well, they were at the top of the A10, there was excitement and there were expectations. Sadly, with his passing, SLU had limited options in replacing him. If they went outside and hired new head coach, it is very likely that many of the strong players they had (which ended up taking them to the tournament after Majerus' passing) would have transferred. The only option, at that point, was to promote from within, and Crews was the one with head coaching experience. Crews couldn't recruit at all, and all of the momentum was lost.

SLU, right now, under Ford, is headed in the right direction. They will be much better next year, and they are recruiting better than at any point under Crews. In all likelihood, if SLU starts trending back towards the top of the A-10 (and getting the place filled again, especially without the Rams), it would matchup with when the Big East starts looking at its next contract.

I would guess that Marquette, DePaul, Xavier, Butler, and Creighton would all favor their inclusion, and if it gives them a bump in pay for the added content, I would guess that the original Big East 5 (Nova, G'Town, Providence, Seton Hall and St. Johns) would ok it as well. I still think we are a few years away from that happening though.

I think the question will be if SLU does bounce back in the next year or two if Ford gets poached from SLU. If Ford does what would be needed to get SLU attractive enough really to the networks to get into the Big East, Ford will be in pretty high demand one would think.

And the perfect expansion candidate to add for the original BE5? UConn. Flame away!

PS - sorry, again, Dayton!

(06-11-2017 05:36 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 09:57 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(06-07-2017 08:08 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(06-07-2017 12:43 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Why Butler over STL, at that time???

I think Xavier wanted to stay close to them big time. IIRC, at the time when the A10 invited Butler, Xavier pushed hard. And, didn't Xavier turn down a Big East invite around then or shortly after? Before the divorce, but during the start of the peel-off's?

I got the impression the two were named, it was a package deal. Maybe overstated? Maybe Xavier even went so far as pushing for Butler to also be added to the Big East when they were rumored to be after them?

Passing on SLU is obvious. Stop looking at the market, the gates, and Catholic connection. The success wasn't there. It wasn't consistent. Creighton and Butler were the better choices by far.

No, Xavier never turned down a Big East invite.

There was a rumor floating out there in the spring/summer of 2012 after Butler was invited to the A10 that the Big East approached Xavier, but they weren't interested. Floated around some of the Rivals Big East school boards, iirc.

Never substantiated, BUT, consider the timing. Pay to leave A10 to go to the Big East and then give up money AGAIN to probably join the C7? And this was ahead of the formal rumblings and threats of the faction and its withdrawal.

Regardless of its legs, even that rumor had Xavier and Butler tied closely together. And nobody seemed surprised those two were the top, easy two to take. So, why are we critical of Butler now and not then? It was Creighton that supposedly took someone else's spot (SLU or Dayton).

Why would the Big East approach another BBall school when they needed those slots for FB members?

(06-12-2017 12:30 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Why would the Big East approach another BBall school when they needed those slots for FB members?

I made a timeline to track the Big East in's and out's.

Quote:TCU accepts Big East bid (11/2010)
Pitt and Syracuse announce joining the ACC (9/2011)
TCU now going to the Big XII (10/2011)
WVU accepts Big XII invite (10/2011)
The Mega Invite (UH, SMU, UCF, Boise and SDSU football) (12/2011)
Navy announces it will join Big East in 2015 (1/2012)
Memphis joining Big East for 13-14 (2/2012)
Temple joining Big East (football 2012, others in 2013) (3/2012)
(Butler to the A-10, Xavier murmurs)
Rutgers to Big Ten (11/2012)
Tulane joining Big East (11/2012)
ECU joining BEF (11/2012)
Louisville to ACC (11/2012)
C7 votes to leave Big East (12/2012)

Football was well covered. Xavier was supposed to be a concession for the basketball schools to retain some kind of political clout with the conference.

I have a hard time believing that Cincinnati would have been ok with Xavier in the Big East, unless of course that they were given assurances by someone that they would be getting an invite elsewhere (which didn't happen).

(06-12-2017 03:05 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I have a hard time believing that Cincinnati would have been ok with Xavier in the Big East, unless of course that they were given assurances by someone that they would be getting an invite elsewhere (which didn't happen).

Consider Temple and what Villanova was "forced to accept?"

(06-07-2017 10:36 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Out of left field question: let's say Dayton continues to do well and let's say STL gets back to being a high level mid-major team ... then suddenly UConn announces it wants the Big East.

To make it more fun ... let's say the Big East decides it will take at least two more, maybe all three.


In that hypothetical, should it take all three?? Or only two ... and which two??

Easy,. Dayton. Consider that Dayton's fans are so good, they are solely given the First Four each year, because they sell out the games. Dayton is also a top ten basketball market based on ESPN and NCAA ratings.

(06-08-2017 02:23 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(06-08-2017 12:27 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Everyone needs to understand this about SLU: they very explicitly WANT to be a part of the East Coast-based elite education industrial complex. They are extremely open about this approach. As a result, being in a Midwestern bus league is BAD for them in terms of their goals as an overall institution.

Please, SLU would still be in Conference USA if it were still setup like the original. C-USA is as Midwestern and Southern as it gets. Their primary division featured Midwestern schools in driving distance except Charlotte, then later, ECU.

This neglects the fact that the original C-USA was a far better league then they had access too prior, when they were in the later versions of the MVC. Yeah C-USA was midwestern and southern, but it had far better expsoure than their other choices. However the A-10 is an eastern based on conference that is ALSO better than the current MVC. Thus, to Frank's point, they woudl not voluntarily make that move. Their past in C-USA doesn't change that.

(06-11-2017 10:18 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Bish,

FWIW, I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that Butler was the last of the three taken, with Xavier an obvious choice and Creighton a slam dunk.

Now Butler has lost its head coach, again.

Butler is still located in Indianapolis. St. Louis is a bigger market, but college basketball is FAR more popular in Indiana, Kentucky, and Ohio, than it is in Missouri. As such, schools like Dayton and Butler, who are in top ten college basketball markets, both for ESPN broadcasts, and the NCAA tournament, draw larger viewership.

Butler sort of fits the role that TCU did in the Big 12. Even if looking back you can make the case that another candidate might have been a better long term fit, sometimes the team in the moment helps set the stage. Butler was coming off back to back National Title games, including losing one by two points. You don't think Fox may have had some input into saying, "hey if you are expanding, and we are paying you this much, grab the school that sits two hours away from 3 of the other schools, who has the most recent success rate, oh and by the way is located in an area so entrenched in college basketball, the NCAA moved their headquarters there a few years before."

Butler had a lot of national cache at the time, the type of thing that helps a new conference get off the ground. Their market is also better, for this sport, than St Louis. Their recent history was better. They are in fertile recruiting grounds, and very close to DePaul, Marquette, and Xavier, without overlap. Even if the case could be made that St. Louis may have more long term value (and I am not sure that is the case due to the value of Indy), it doesn't make up for what was needed to get the conference off on good footing when many were doubting its continued existence as a power conference. For that reason alone, it was the right move.

(06-12-2017 03:12 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(06-12-2017 03:05 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I have a hard time believing that Cincinnati would have been ok with Xavier in the Big East, unless of course that they were given assurances by someone that they would be getting an invite elsewhere (which didn't happen).

Consider Temple and what Villanova was "forced to accept?"

As someone who followed the Big East realignment very closely I never ever heard that rumor. You said it was being floated on the BE rivals board? Well that figures it was nothing more than message board BS. And the fact that Xavier turned it down is even funnier. Then they decided to sign up just a few months later? hahaha

a few years ago I was convinced the BE would be at 12 by now (or at least have announced they would be) now I'm not that sure. I am convinced though that should the BE expand SLU will be part of it.

I think last time in came down to St Louis and Creighton for number 10. Creighton had fan support, inside support of members such as Marquette, stronger program at the time and IMO it was less disruptive inviting a MVC team than another A10 team. I think the original plan was to invite Creighton 1st let the dust settle and then go back to the A10 for St Louis. Since the A10 focused more on the east for replacements losing St Louis wouldn't be as inconvenient for them the next round. Now that the BE has seen success and frankly there isn't a slam dunk candidate for #12 I think the expansion movement has cooled off a bit. BE doesn't NEED 12 as many thought they might after split

(06-12-2017 03:12 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(06-12-2017 03:05 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I have a hard time believing that Cincinnati would have been ok with Xavier in the Big East, unless of course that they were given assurances by someone that they would be getting an invite elsewhere (which didn't happen).

Consider Temple and what Villanova was "forced to accept?"

BIG difference with that comparison. Temple was football-only, and Villanova didn't have Big East football. You had same market, but two schools that collectively brought football and basketball. With Cincinnati and Xavier, you may only have one football program, but you also have two basketball programs within same city. Unless Cincinnati was becoming a football-only member, it wouldn't have made sense.

(06-12-2017 10:30 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(06-12-2017 03:12 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(06-12-2017 03:05 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I have a hard time believing that Cincinnati would have been ok with Xavier in the Big East, unless of course that they were given assurances by someone that they would be getting an invite elsewhere (which didn't happen).

Consider Temple and what Villanova was "forced to accept?"

BIG difference with that comparison. Temple was football-only, and Villanova didn't have Big East football. You had same market, but two schools that collectively brought football and basketball. With Cincinnati and Xavier, you may only have one football program, but you also have two basketball programs within same city. Unless Cincinnati was becoming a football-only member, it wouldn't have made sense.

not the 2nd time around. Temple was going to be in all sports.

Temple rejoined for football in the Big East in 2012. They didn't join basketball until the American in 2013. Villanova was long gone by that point, as the C7 announced they were leaving way before that. Was there some overlap between announcements and Villanova leaving? Sure, but I have no doubt that Villanova agreed to their acceptance knowing full well they wouldn't be there when they joined (not unlike the C7 admitting Tulane as well).

(06-12-2017 11:17 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Temple rejoined for football in the Big East in 2012. They didn't join basketball until the American in 2013. Villanova was long gone by that point, as the C7 announced they were leaving way before that. Was there some overlap between announcements and Villanova leaving? Sure, but I have no doubt that Villanova agreed to their acceptance knowing full well they wouldn't be there when they joined (not unlike the C7 admitting Tulane as well).

Temple was going to be football only in 2012 and then everything in 2013.
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/story...012-season

If you see, the announcement was March 4, 2012. I think if the Maryland/Rutgers move hadn't happened, you would have seen Nova and Temple in the same conference. But that changed everything.

(06-12-2017 03:57 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Butler is still located in Indianapolis. St. Louis is a bigger market, but college basketball is FAR more popular in Indiana, Kentucky, and Ohio, than it is in Missouri. As such, schools like Dayton and Butler, who are in top ten college basketball markets, both for ESPN broadcasts, and the NCAA tournament, draw larger viewership.

Butler sort of fits the role that TCU did in the Big 12. Even if looking back you can make the case that another candidate might have been a better long term fit, sometimes the team in the moment helps set the stage. Butler was coming off back to back National Title games, including losing one by two points. You don't think Fox may have had some input into saying, "hey if you are expanding, and we are paying you this much, grab the school that sits two hours away from 3 of the other schools, who has the most recent success rate, oh and by the way is located in an area so entrenched in college basketball, the NCAA moved their headquarters there a few years before."

Butler had a lot of national cache at the time, the type of thing that helps a new conference get off the ground. Their market is also better, for this sport, than St Louis. Their recent history was better. They are in fertile recruiting grounds, and very close to DePaul, Marquette, and Xavier, without overlap. Even if the case could be made that St. Louis may have more long term value (and I am not sure that is the case due to the value of Indy), it doesn't make up for what was needed to get the conference off on good footing when many were doubting its continued existence as a power conference. For that reason alone, it was the right move.

All sounds fair and valid, to me. Thanks

(06-12-2017 07:30 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  a few years ago I was convinced the BE would be at 12 by now (or at least have announced they would be) now I'm not that sure. I am convinced though that should the BE expand SLU will be part of it.

I think last time in came down to St Louis and Creighton for number 10. Creighton had fan support, inside support of members such as Marquette, stronger program at the time and IMO it was less disruptive inviting a MVC team than another A10 team. I think the original plan was to invite Creighton 1st let the dust settle and then go back to the A10 for St Louis. Since the A10 focused more on the east for replacements losing St Louis wouldn't be as inconvenient for them the next round. Now that the BE has seen success and frankly there isn't a slam dunk candidate for #12 I think the expansion movement has cooled off a bit. BE doesn't NEED 12 as many thought they might after split

There is a slam dunk ( ) candidate for #12: UConn!

Couple-few thoughts:

- Creighton has made 4 Sweet Sixteens... 1974, 1964, 1962, and 1941.

- Yes, Xavier and Butler were easy picks as teams 8 and 9. Brad Stevens was still at Butler at that point. Xavier never turned down a Big East invitation. Butler's history of great coaching hires gives me total confidence that they'll continue being successful under Lavall Jordan.

- On a similar note, while Xavier had been recruiting studs pre-BE, the recruiting improvement by Creighton and Butler has been fantastic... now instead of recruiting straight talent, they're now getting talent that has bruising Big East strength and size. Also, Creighton is now recruiting on the East Coast too (Mintz and others) due to BE membership and assistant Preston Murphy.

- With Dayton, there has been resistance to adding them from Xavier. The other BE schools are pretty neutral towards them. Since XU is so close geographically and also our conference mate, we support Xavier on this. Though UConn is close to Providence, we wouldn't resist adding them if the opportunity came up... probably because of our long history with them and good relationship and because we're in 2 different states and there is a clearer separation between us.

- Note on DePaul... they've had some nice moves recently, having signed a 5-star PG class of 18, and will be moving to a new arena this Fall in the city.

- Huge opportunity coming up for the BE as St John's and DePaul may be turning the corner. To this point, anything the Big East has recently done was accomplished without the New York and Chicago fanbases... when they wake up the BE will take another huge leap forward.

(06-12-2017 05:34 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(06-12-2017 03:12 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(06-12-2017 03:05 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I have a hard time believing that Cincinnati would have been ok with Xavier in the Big East, unless of course that they were given assurances by someone that they would be getting an invite elsewhere (which didn't happen).

Consider Temple and what Villanova was "forced to accept?"

As someone who followed the Big East realignment very closely I never ever heard that rumor. You said it was being floated on the BE rivals board? Well that figures it was nothing more than message board BS. And the fact that Xavier turned it down is even funnier. Then they decided to sign up just a few months later? hahaha

I remember reading something from the Villanova board, and seeing it (repeated) elsewhere. I agree that Rivals had its share of BS, Villanova no different. Villanova also had some active folks who were close to the coaches and athletic department, too. Even had someone from the AD office coming on every once and a while. That was a good place to follow the football story.

Nicastro, or someone from his office, leaked stuff like a sieve. When it came to the football stuff, though, I think he had to in order to get a feel from the alumni and fan base, and away from the media, who, definitely seemed to push for Villanova to explore football at the FBS level.

Where it comes to that Xavier rumor, who knows. I'd actually believe it because it would simply be due diligence back in Spring/Summer 2012. I know the hindsight thing makes things a lot more clear now, and while the internet, press, and bloggers were circulating the C7 thing back then, it wasn't official then. It would be more clear some months later. Again, not then. The Big East wasn't dead then. They were still a power conference with AQ to the BCS structure. I don't know why the idea is so outlandish; don't disagree that it could be nothing more than a rumor, either. And, let's remember something: if Xavier leaves in 2012 for 12-13, then splitting again in 13, where is the exit money coming from? Xavier wasn't rolling in it. And it wasn't the same situation Butler faced.

It is what it is. That 2010-13 span was nuts across D1. At this point, I'd believe just about anything...but because a lot of things almost did happen...including the Big East taking Big XII schools. Xavier getting a feeler ahead of the split? That's an easy buy for me.

(06-12-2017 11:44 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(06-12-2017 11:17 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Temple rejoined for football in the Big East in 2012. They didn't join basketball until the American in 2013. Villanova was long gone by that point, as the C7 announced they were leaving way before that. Was there some overlap between announcements and Villanova leaving? Sure, but I have no doubt that Villanova agreed to their acceptance knowing full well they wouldn't be there when they joined (not unlike the C7 admitting Tulane as well).

Temple was going to be football only in 2012 and then everything in 2013.
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/story...012-season

If you see, the announcement was March 4, 2012. I think if the Maryland/Rutgers move hadn't happened, you would have seen Nova and Temple in the same conference. But that changed everything.

Stever is correct. At the time, the Big East needed an emergency add for the 2012 football season, having already lost WVU and TCU from what was intended to be an 8 game conference schedule in 2012. If any of the previous additions had been available to begin football play in 2012, Temple may have been deferred as an expansion candidate until after the Big East/AAC split.

(06-13-2017 12:12 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(06-12-2017 05:34 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(06-12-2017 03:12 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(06-12-2017 03:05 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I have a hard time believing that Cincinnati would have been ok with Xavier in the Big East, unless of course that they were given assurances by someone that they would be getting an invite elsewhere (which didn't happen).

Consider Temple and what Villanova was "forced to accept?"

As someone who followed the Big East realignment very closely I never ever heard that rumor. You said it was being floated on the BE rivals board? Well that figures it was nothing more than message board BS. And the fact that Xavier turned it down is even funnier. Then they decided to sign up just a few months later? hahaha

I remember reading something from the Villanova board, and seeing it (repeated) elsewhere. I agree that Rivals had its share of BS, Villanova no different. Villanova also had some active folks who were close to the coaches and athletic department, too. Even had someone from the AD office coming on every once and a while. That was a good place to follow the football story.

Nicastro, or someone from his office, leaked stuff like a sieve. When it came to the football stuff, though, I think he had to in order to get a feel from the alumni and fan base, and away from the media, who, definitely seemed to push for Villanova to explore football at the FBS level.

Where it comes to that Xavier rumor, who knows. I'd actually believe it because it would simply be due diligence back in Spring/Summer 2012. I know the hindsight thing makes things a lot more clear now, and while the internet, press, and bloggers were circulating the C7 thing back then, it wasn't official then. It would be more clear some months later. Again, not then. The Big East wasn't dead then. They were still a power conference with AQ to the BCS structure. I don't know why the idea is so outlandish; don't disagree that it could be nothing more than a rumor, either. And, let's remember something: if Xavier leaves in 2012 for 12-13, then splitting again in 13, where is the exit money coming from? Xavier wasn't rolling in it. And it wasn't the same situation Butler faced.

It is what it is. That 2010-13 span was nuts across D1. At this point, I'd believe just about anything...but because a lot of things almost did happen...including the Big East taking Big XII schools. Xavier getting a feeler ahead of the split? That's an easy buy for me.

Did they get feelers from the C7? Maybe, but if you read the story about the Creighton invitation timeframe I doubt they knew they were splitting until right before they did. The thing that was said though was that Xavier was invited and they turned the BE down. That never actually happened no matter what you would or would not believe.