(03-24-2017 08:01 AM)Naptown Tribe Wrote:  ... didn't have a positive truly defining moment for us.

...separates greatness from really good players with some great stats.

Number retiring, imo, is reserved for transcendent, program elevating, players.

First off, thanks to Formertribe for pointing out that it was Rusthoven, not Sheldon, on the final Delaware play (which is good, because between the two I would rather Rusthoven take the shot than Sheldon). I will also bow to the apparent consensus that it was Tarpey who took the last shot at Tulsa (subconciously, I must have wanted Thornton to take it). :o)

Concerning Naptown's comments, I have some questions. First, let me repeat that I am a huge Marcus fan -- but some of the comments need questioning.

First, please tell me what was Marcus's "truly defining moment for us"? Or was it, as many posters seem to be saying, a lot of individual three-pointers that all added up to a total that made Marcus a transcendent player?

Second, this comment: "...separates greatness from really good players with some great stats." A Devil's Advocate could look at the fact that Marcus himself excelled only in scoring and say that he was a "really good player with some great stats".

Third: "transcendent, program elevating, players". Marcus was truly a transcendent, program elevating player. I also think Omar, Terry, and even Daniel his senior year could fit that description, too, certainly on occasion. We were truly lucky to have all four of those guys playing together and may never have that again for many more years. Marcus's number is already retired and should already be hanging. I think that Omar's deserves to be up there, too.

(03-24-2017 10:02 AM)TribeNiner Wrote:  As others have said, you can't look at numbers in a vacuum.

What about David Schneider? He had fewer points, but performed as well/better in most major categories.

Schneider - 1491 points, 538 rebounds, 368 assists, 166 steals, 80.5% FT, 3985 minutes etc.

He was only 9 points away from 1500 points, 500 rebounds, 300 assists, and 100 steals and got us as close to an at-large as anyone. He's 8th in CAA history in 3-pointers made, 10th in free throw percentage, etc., all while being the focus of opposing teams' defenses.

I don't think any of us would argue that Schneider's jersey should be retired - but he was a helluva player and we were lucky to have him. I feel the same way about Prewitt.

Based on the stats quoted above, I would have no issue if they retired Schneider's number. He did a lot for the program; elevated the profile of W&M basketball when it really needed elevating.

(03-24-2017 10:23 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-24-2017 08:01 AM)Naptown Tribe Wrote:  ... didn't have a positive truly defining moment for us.

...separates greatness from really good players with some great stats.

Number retiring, imo, is reserved for transcendent, program elevating, players.

First off, thanks to Formertribe for pointing out that it was Rusthoven, not Sheldon, on the final Delaware play (which is good, because between the two I would rather Rusthoven take the shot than Sheldon). I will also bow to the apparent consensus that it was Tarpey who took the last shot at Tulsa (subconciously, I must have wanted Thornton to take it). :o)

Concerning Naptown's comments, I have some questions. First, let me repeat that I am a huge Marcus fan -- but some of the comments need questioning.

First, please tell me what was Marcus's "truly defining moment for us"? Or was it, as many posters seem to be saying, a lot of individual three-pointers that all added up to a total that made Marcus a transcendent player?

Second, this comment: "...separates greatness from really good players with some great stats." A Devil's Advocate could look at the fact that Marcus himself excelled only in scoring and say that he was a "really good player with some great stats".

Third: "transcendent, program elevating, players". Marcus was truly a transcendent, program elevating player. I also think Omar, Terry, and even Daniel his senior year could fit that description, too, certainly on occasion. We were truly lucky to have all four of those guys playing together and may never have that again for many more years. Marcus's number is already retired and should already be hanging. I think that Omar's deserves to be up there, too.

I could go with his 35+ point performance against a highly ranked UR in 2014 or his performance in the 2014 tournament leading all scorers for the league or the uncountable amount of games that he'd score 20 points like it was absolutely nothing.

But at first glance, my "defining moment" of MT's career seems random. I'd say his defining moment was the 3-pointer vs. Drexel as time expired in 2014 season (back when Drexel was a force). Basically guaranteed us staying a 3 seed by sweeping Drexel for the year. Without that win, we may have fallen to the 4 spot, faced Delaware in the semis and never made the championship game that year.

The confidence of that shot lifted the program, in my mind. I'll never forget Marcus' "stomp" celebration after that shot. I think we came back from and 8-10 point defect in that game. Dixon's shot vs. Hofstra is the only thing I've seen close to it. We hadn't ever had confidence that a last second shot was going in until that moment.

And I'd say David's defining moment was his role in the UD win where scored 9 points in the final 30 seconds and then won it OT. Or when he lost a tooth at Liberty. (But actually his shot vs. Georgia St in the 2008 CAA tourney).

I know Omar had some incredible games that won us the game, but I can't rattle off any of them. I can't put a finger on a moment where I had Omar in the same league as MT. Stats-wise...Omar was a fantastic player that will go down in W&M history as a great player.

But truthfully, stats aside, I can't say I ever said wanted the ball in Omar's hand to take the final shot of a game.

(03-24-2017 10:23 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(03-24-2017 08:01 AM)Naptown Tribe Wrote:  ... didn't have a positive truly defining moment for us.

...separates greatness from really good players with some great stats.

Number retiring, imo, is reserved for transcendent, program elevating, players.

First off, thanks to Formertribe for pointing out that it was Rusthoven, not Sheldon, on the final Delaware play (which is good, because between the two I would rather Rusthoven take the shot than Sheldon). I will also bow to the apparent consensus that it was Tarpey who took the last shot at Tulsa (subconciously, I must have wanted Thornton to take it). :o)

Concerning Naptown's comments, I have some questions. First, let me repeat that I am a huge Marcus fan -- but some of the comments need questioning.

First, please tell me what was Marcus's "truly defining moment for us"? Or was it, as many posters seem to be saying, a lot of individual three-pointers that all added up to a total that made Marcus a transcendent player?

Second, this comment: "...separates greatness from really good players with some great stats." A Devil's Advocate could look at the fact that Marcus himself excelled only in scoring and say that he was a "really good player with some great stats".

Third: "transcendent, program elevating, players". Marcus was truly a transcendent, program elevating player. I also think Omar, Terry, and even Daniel his senior year could fit that description, too, certainly on occasion. We were truly lucky to have all four of those guys playing together and may never have that again for many more years. Marcus's number is already retired and should already be hanging. I think that Omar's deserves to be up there, too.

Zorch, appreciate your thoughts. Obviously this is all very much subjective and we might have to agree to disagree.

To me, being the school's all time leading scorer and being drafted in the NBA are incredibly defining and program elevating/transcendent moments for Marcus that Omar, Terry, Daniel and David don't have.

I agree with you that Terry, Omar, Daniel and David S all helped elevate our program. It's a team game and everyone has a role.

You could make the same argument for guys like Randy Bracey,, Jim Moran, etc... and that's my point.

We can't retire all their numbers or we would eventually have none left, which is why we have to keep it as a really high bench mark, which is one, imo, that Marcus reaches and Omar doesn't, and that's not at all intended to undermine all of Omar's awesome accomplishments at W&M.

Fwiw, I have the same Marcus image in my head from the Drexel game.

Who can forget?

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mar...&FORM=VIRE

Marcus could take over a game and score at will. Plus he forced the other team's guards to play hard on defense all game. He broke the press easily, found players on offense when they were open, and could take it to the hoop as well as shoot from deep. The real reason he's not in the NBA is because he was really 6'2" (not 6'4") and never really bought into the weight lifting thing. He couldn't match up physically with NBA guards. I still hope he gets another shot.

Marcus changed our basketball program, period. He was the first puzzle piece that allowed us to start recruiting better athletes and move to the fast pace that we love watching today.

Omar was a good/great player, but let's face it, this past season the team was lacking in leadership. Some of that falls on Omar. Some guys are great players, but not great leaders.

Having said that, I am surprised to see that Omar had more assists than Marcus did, considering that Marcus played point guard most of the time.

My disappointment for this past season can be summed up by saying I really thought that Daniel and Omar were both special talents, but we couldn't put it all together. The team was not consistently better than the sum of its parts and was sometimes worse that the sum of its parts.

I hate to lose the four guys to graduation, but given the results of last season, I wouldn't be shocked if the team fares better next year. I am not expecting better results, but you never know.

I am just glad that there are others folks around how actually care about Tribe hoops.

Go Tribe!

Appreciate the great comments from everyone on both sides of my suggestion to retire Omar's number.
Solid points on both sides.

My own comment after all in this thread is that just because Omar played with a greater player for two seasons--Marcus--should not confuse his ability to stand alone as a player in his own right and have his number hung in the rafters.

Heaven knows, we have a scant number of shirts hanging up there now and one more, Prewitt's will not dishonor in any way whatsoever the guy's (and one lady's) numbers up there already. My gosh, there's lots of room!

You guys all made great points about Marcus. This post from Gheorge the Blog is a mid-senior-season retrospective of why he was as special as he was. The missed dunk story at the start was eye-opening in person, and part of what made Marcus transcendent was that we expect players now to make aggressive moves that end in dunks, not layups. All the expectations that we have now came first from Marcus Thornton elevating our program to a perennial CAA contender.

(03-24-2017 07:10 PM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  You guys all made great points about Marcus. This post from Gheorge the Blog is a mid-senior-season retrospective of why he was as special as he was. The missed dunk story at the start was eye-opening in person, and part of what made Marcus transcendent was that we expect players now to make aggressive moves that end in dunks, not layups. All the expectations that we have now came first from Marcus Thornton elevating our program to a perennial CAA contender.

Did some googling and found the blog you were referencing...Fantastic read: http://gheorghe77.blogspot.com/2014/12/t...day-4.html

Man, I miss Marcus.

There's a pretty solid argument to be made that Prewitt was a better player over his career than Thornton. However Thornton was the CAA POY, led the team to its first conference title in almost 20 years and it's not Thornton's fault his first two years were wasted on awful teams with little talent.

(03-24-2017 10:19 PM)tribetime10 Wrote:  

(03-24-2017 07:10 PM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  You guys all made great points about Marcus. This post from Gheorge the Blog is a mid-senior-season retrospective of why he was as special as he was. The missed dunk story at the start was eye-opening in person, and part of what made Marcus transcendent was that we expect players now to make aggressive moves that end in dunks, not layups. All the expectations that we have now came first from Marcus Thornton elevating our program to a perennial CAA contender.

Did some googling and found the blog you were referencing...Fantastic read: http://gheorghe77.blogspot.com/2014/12/t...day-4.html

Man, I miss Marcus.

Same here. (Just realized I forgot to link the post I was referencing. Thanks.)

Omar's stats were so good his freshman & sophomore season because team's often played tight defense on Marcus with another defender close by to help when needed. That freed up a lot of space for the other player's on the court. Outside of Marcus's freshman season (probably #2 option behind Quinn), he was opposing teams' number 1 priority to stop.

Omar had a very impressive junior year considering he was our team's top scoring threat that season and was often the focus of opposing defenses. That being said, he did not have to carry the load anywhere near as much as Marcus did.

(03-24-2017 10:39 PM)Rocco Wrote:  There's a pretty solid argument to be made that Prewitt was a better player over his career than Thornton. However Thornton was the CAA POY, led the team to its first conference title in almost 20 years and it's not Thornton's fault his first two years were wasted on awful teams with little talent.

True statement... If only Thornton, Prewitt, Dixon, & Tarpey all came at the same time...

(03-25-2017 12:51 AM)WMtribe17 Wrote:  Omar's stats were so good his freshman & sophomore season because team's often played tight defense on Marcus with another defender close by to help when needed. That freed up a lot of space for the other player's on the court. Outside of Marcus's freshman season (probably #2 option behind Quinn), he was opposing teams' number 1 priority to stop.

Omar had a very impressive junior year considering he was our team's top scoring threat that season and was often the focus of opposing defenses. That being said, he did not have to carry the load anywhere near as much as Marcus did.

Part of why Thornton didn't play any defense was due to him having to do everything on offense- you have to save energy somewhere.

I also thought it was due to a conscious decision to avoid picking up defensive fouls, and fouling out. I don't recall fouls being an issue with him.

The BB dinner is past and no retirement of his number and IMO it is unlikely. Omar's stats were great and his personality fabulous but neither he or Daniel provided the senior leadership this team needed and that intangible tilts the scales.

The Prewitt number retirement is being considered...an athletic department committee is deciding.

Decision was put off because of the new athletic director being named and the unavailability of coaches scurrying all over recruiting.

Also because he's in line behind other players to get their number retired. Thanks so much to whoever brought this post back from the dead.