After reading a number of comments on the Maine thread, I thought this would be something worth it’s own thread. I know some associated with the school and athletics programs lurk, on here, so hopefully this can help generate some ideas about student attendance. The issue of student attendance is one that is ongoing. Every year you know the first game, parents weekend, and homecoming will have a good turnout. If Richmond is home, that game usually has a good turnout as well; and the last few years with alternating JMU or Richmond at home that is a fourth game that is well attended. That means there's always one game that just has nothing special attached to it and will be hard for attendance. This year it was Maine, and it's also the one game a year where they offer four free tickets to season ticket holders to try and boost attendance.

With that in mind, I think there are definitely steps that can be made to increase student interest in the program. If you generate interest, attendance at games follows. Tony Shaver (or someone working with him) has done a great job generating that interest in basketball. Consecutive 20 win seasons doesn't hurt, but I feel like there's more effort to engage students. The players run over by the student section, Shaver makes a YouTube pitch to pack the Kap, etc. To my knowledge, there hasn’t been as much of an effort to reach out to students for football games (there may be, and I’m just not aware since I’m not a student anymore). Football has the benefit of having around 100 walking ambassadors of the program that can reach out to the student body; far more than any other sport on campus. Efforts by coaches and the staff are great, but if players can reach out to their friends to come to games that is so much more effective. I remember one of these non-special event games a couple of years ago and my wife looked at the empty student section and commented that the players had to have more non-football friends on campus than what was in the student section.

When I look at these things, I like to look at numbers to see where improvements can be made. There are 1,653 seats in the student section. This is based off how many seats are in Sections 116-119, which mirrors the student section. Let’s give the pep band half of one of the full size sections, which accounts for 263 seats. I know the pep band is not that large, and they probably don’t take up a whole half, but I’ll be generous here and give them some room. If you had each football player get three people to attend the game that’s roughly 300 more butts in seats. These can be friends, these can be classmates, it can be walking around campus one day at lunch time around the Sadler Center and stopping students to chat, get to know them, then tell them how much a full, loud student section helps when playing a tough game. Charlotte did something similar to this when they started their football program. Enlist the pep band, challenge them to get 100 people to come out to the game. I have no idea how many Greek organizations we have, but if you have ten people from ten fraternities and ten sororities, that’s another 200 people. Right there, that leaves 790 seats left and half of the student section is filled. I know this is all easier said than done, but it feels like there is more that can be done to generate interest. The new Zable is a great step towards the gameday atmosphere, and helping students have fun at games makes them want to come back (winning games doesn't hurt either). It has been rightly noted that today’s students are the donors and West Grandstand inhabitants of the future. That’s why I say we need to generate an interest in the team, not just attendance.

Would love to hear if there are things that have been done that I’m missing, or if anyone has other ideas.

This is an interesting topic. I've been following the posts on the Maine thread and didn't realize how big of a problem this is (the student section did look pretty weak during that game). For the record, my perspective is as a viewer of Tribe Football/Basketball on TV/Internet (currently live too far to attend games...hopefully that will change). I would agree that basketball attendance seems significantly better than football. Even while watching games that aren't promotional/featured (gold rush, senior day, etc...), there seems to be a lot of fans in the stands during most games (except games during breaks/around exams). Maybe this isn't actually the case and my perception is skewed since Kaplan is smaller than Zable and the acoustics allow for more noise to be picked up on a mic in a closed arena instead of an open air stadium. However, assuming that we are drawing more students to Kaplan, this begs the question as to why. A couple obvious reasons stand out - first, the basketball team has been pretty good as of late, plays an exciting style, and is on the brink of ending a historical tournament drought. Second - basketball games are shorter than football, allowing for less of a time commitment from students per game. With basketball games being faster paced than football, I think the games are also a little more exciting to watch and easier to for a new sports fan to understand. In addition to this, I also think the basketball team does a good job marketing themselves on social media. As mentioned, Shaver is getting on Youtube telling students to Pack the Kap, team members tweet about the Goldrush/other games, and David Cohn even created a web series where he provides short interviews with other players. At least from my perspective, this makes the team relate-able and easy to support. Throw in some games where students get free swag and it makes the decision to attend games even easier. Doesn't seem like football has a great social media presence and I don't think they are holding the same type of promotional events to get fans in the stands - it might not solve all their problems, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to increase student attendance.

Lastly, a lot on the Maine board have pointed out that the student's in attendance today are the alumni supporters tomorrow. I guess what I'm wondering is, how big was student attendance in the 70's, 80's, and 90's? Is it clearly correlated to how many alumni are going to games now? If our games of the past were drawing 500 - 1,000 students per game (give or take), I'd agree that we clearly have an attendance issue and it could adversely affect us going forward. I'd imagine this is the case given some of the recent concerns, but I'm more so curious given how little I know about all the nuances of our athletic history.

Game environment is lousy compared to other places with regard to students. We don't see student tailgating. Students don't congregate at the fraternities/sororities and come over en masse.

I've seen a better turn out at night games and games other than parent's weekend.

Let's not confuse things though. The student body is very different than when I went there in the mid 80s. We could serve beer in the frats and/or have open container parties on campus. I also remember that almost everyone who was on my freshman hall played some sort of sports in high school and those who didn't were sports fans with exception of one kid, and he smoked a lot of pot. Not sure he cared about much.

Kids today are way more geeky and intellectual than when I was there. We'll put out more rocket scientists now than ever before, but maybe Saturdays are better served for Frisbee golf or Nintendo for our current students.

I'd suggest that we should focus on getting the community to turn out and sell out the new seats. It's nice to see alumni come back year after year, but Williamsburg has a lot more people now, and getting them and their kids to come will fill the seats every game and not just for special events (homecoming).

The turn out for Maine sucked. Lots of empty season ticket seats, end zones weren't full. Maine traveled very lightly and the students didn't come.

I drove from Northern Virginia and had a great weekend.

I have a ton of thoughts on this topic, but want to just throw out a few quick thoughts:

This problem is NOT unique to William and Mary. Attendance is down all over...you're not exempt if youre an SEC, ACC, C-USA, CAA or D-II schools. This isn't a nerd issue. This isn't a culture of W&M issue. This isn't a library issue. This is a problem for athletic depts across the nation.

It kills me to see our student section so empty. But historically, those numbers of students ebb and flow--unfortunately often based on performance. If the team is winning, the campus is buzzing and it isn't about going to a game, it is about going to an event. There is a MAJOR difference between the perception of a Football Game & Campus Event. We will inevitably have years with a sub-.500 team. The challenge is making those games an event, rather than just a football game.

Side note: FBS schools average attendance has dropped from 46K to 44K in the past 7 years. 2K isn't THAT significant, grand-scheme, but when you figure the higher attendance numbers (schools with 80K+...UM, Michigan, Bama) will remain relatively constant, that means you're seeing MAJOR drops at the lower end of the spectrum to offset that relatively consistent upper-tier attendance.

One other note: Athletic Departments pull their hair out to figure this stuff out. I've worked with 4-5 colleges across the country and this is a topic all over.

This, unfortunately, isn't something you can just throw money at and fix. Student attendance is and always will be a grassroots movement. The best marketing towards students is to know that your friend will be going to the game with you.

In a school with a student body of 5,500, if we're going to fill 1,600 seats, there are a lot of things that have to go right: from on-the-field to the athletic dept promotions to grassroots. There's not a single magic solution.

(10-31-2016 02:00 PM)tribetime10 Wrote:  One other note: Athletic Departments pull their hair out to figure this stuff out. I've worked with 4-5 colleges across the country and this is a topic all over.

This, unfortunately, isn't something you can just throw money at and fix. Student attendance is and always will be a grassroots movement. The best marketing towards students is to know that your friend will be going to the game with you.

In a school with a student body of 5,500, if we're going to fill 1,600 seats, there are a lot of things that have to go right: from on-the-field to the athletic dept promotions to grassroots. There's not a single magic solution.

The grassroots element is why I think there has to be some kind of way to get the players involved. I can't put my finger on exactly what it would be, but there has to be something where players can reach out to their fellow students to invite them to come to games.

Wait...you can't serve beer at frat parties anymore? Even if you card for underage at the door?

(10-31-2016 01:51 PM)tribetime10 Wrote:  It kills me to see our student section so empty. But historically, those numbers of students ebb and flow--unfortunately often based on performance. If the team is winning, the campus is buzzing and it isn't about going to a game, it is about going to an event. There is a MAJOR difference between the perception of a Football Game & Campus Event. We will inevitably have years with a sub-.500 team. The challenge is making those games an event, rather than just a football game.

I believe this is absolutely the number one thing to drive student attendance. If you're not having fun at the game you're not going to comeback even if the team is great. I remember we would meet for hours when we were students trying to figure out how to get more people out to games and this is what it always came back to. The diehards (very few in number) will sit through 40 degrees and rain but Joe and Jane TWAMP are essentially coming for the party. Having big personalities (like tribetime10) in the stands helps, giveaways help, and I think a dedicated student tailgate (we had those as recently as when I was a super senior in '14) help. I'd love to see something like the points system for basketball games adopted for the football games. A lot of people come out just to win free stuff.

Two other major things that basketball games have that football doesn't is Greek and athlete presences. Frats and sororities may show up to football games but they show up to basketball games en bloc. It makes a huge difference when you have a nice big section of rowdy frat guys stirring up the basketball crowd and I'd love to see that at football games. Also the athletes still have their own section at football games. One thing we begged the athletic department to change at basketball games was the spread out student section. For years you'd have the athletes in one area and "gen pop" in the other. We finally convinced them to combine the sections and I think it made a huge difference. Now at basketball games you have massive shirtless football players leading the front of the student section. It changes the whole dynamic. I'd love to see the basketball players return the favor. Stop letting them, and the rest of the athletes, sit in the South endzone and force them into section G with the rest of the students. I promise it will help the atmosphere. Move the ROTC guys over too. They're loud and show up, just having them in the student section would make a major difference.

For the 2 games I made it to, I have noticed a huge number of students in the new section upper deck. The view is frankly much better and they can use their campus dining dollars at the vendors, so theyd rather sit nearby. The empty section isnt a true reflection of how many show up.

Might need to rethink the seating chart or be more strict on ticket checking.

I attended from 1976 - 1979. The student section was full. At Homecoming, people sat on the steps. Every home game was a 1:30 start. Here's your list of differences:

1) We were a 1-A program
2) We had a good home schedule
3) There was a huge tailgate lot behind the West Stands
4) Alcohol was present
5) Frats and sororities attended in good numbers
6) We had a fine marching band
7) We were the Indians
8) Vendors came up in the stands, you ordered your big RC, and kept the plastic cups with Indians, feathers, etc... ended up with stacked cups in your dorm room.
9) Alumni side tended to sit and be quiet ... quite the reversal now between students and alumni
10) Alumni left at half time, and a good number never made it back as the tailgate scene was pretty good.
11) Football players lived in freshman dorms with the regular students, and were part of the fraternity scene in their upper class years. Is that happening now? Are they more employees rather than fellow students at the present time?

So, the solution is to recruit the frats and sororities, give out free stuff that can be used by the students in their daily lives (cups and shirts vs. hankies), create a beer garden for the over 21 crowd, re-start a marching band, bring back the feathers, ... and ... wait for it ... go FBS :-) !!!

(10-31-2016 03:29 PM)nj alum Wrote:  1) We were a 1-A program
2) We had a good home schedule

I really don't think this can be overlooked. If we played an ACC schedule (like I dream about every night) the student section would be packed. No one cares about Elon and Towson. I remember remarking during the Maine game while they were honoring the '76 team how depressed the ceremony made me. They were honored for beating UVA, Tech, and Navy. I'd love to just PLAY all three in one year even if we get beat.

(10-31-2016 03:29 PM)nj alum Wrote:  3) There was a huge tailgate lot behind the West Stands
4) Alcohol was present
5) Frats and sororities attended in good numbers
6) We had a fine marching band
8) Vendors came up in the stands, you ordered your big RC, and kept the plastic cups with Indians, feathers, etc... ended up with stacked cups in your dorm room.

This all speaks to gameday atmosphere. It's not like these are easy things to change immediately but it does show how many "basic" parts of football atmosphere are missing at Zable.

(10-31-2016 03:29 PM)nj alum Wrote:  11) Football players lived in freshman dorms with the regular students, and were part of the fraternity scene in their upper class years. Is that happening now? Are they more employees rather than fellow students at the present time?

I think this is a big thing that is a little uncomfortable to talk about but the football players don't necessarily like our student body. A lot if comes down to the athletes thinking our students are scrawny nerds and the rest of the students thinking that the athletes are big, dumb jocks. And obviously that's not really the case. I knew tons of football players who were brilliantly smart and to a man they were some of the nicest people on campus. While on the other side I knew non athletes who turned down full ride scholarships at other schools to come to W&M for the academics. IMO the problem mainly lies in just how busy the athletes are so they don't have a lot of time to interact with our students, so a lot of preconceived notions about both parties tend to stick.

I figured it might help to have a current student's perspective. Part of the problem with student turnout is definitely the gameday experience. Most W&M students aren't big football fans, so they aren't going to go to a football game just to watch the game, there needs to be something else drawing them. This year the school did move the student tailgating over in front of Monroe so it is closer to the stadium, but the school's alcohol policies were so strict that it didn't make much of a difference in attendance.

As was pointed out above the interactions between the team and the general student body is also a big problem. The basketball team is constantly doing things around campus, last week they walked around campus and handed out candy. I would say 75% of students know who Omar Prewitt is and less than 50% know who Steve Cluley is, that is a problem. I also personally heard coach Laycock scoff at the notion of being a part of the Homecoming parade and I don't think it's good to send a message to your team that participating in campus wide activities like the parade is something that is beneath you.

It shocks me that a school so focused on tradition has virtually no established traditions when it comes to football. I was mad when I saw the Maine players all go over to their fans and do a chant with them after the game because we don't have anything like that. After the game the players should come over and sing the alma mater with the student section, or do anything to acknowledge that we exist. There should also be more emphasis placed on the history of the program. The amount of interesting facts I have learned about this program over the last four years is astounding. Most students think our football team is D3 and have no idea that our school beat Oklahoma State in a bowl game, or even that they were the two seed in the playoffs just six years ago.

As I've mentioned before, when I was at W&M the football team had 3 winning seasons out of 4 and generally played entertaining football even if it was a style of play doomed to fail. The basketball team was a combination of bad and boring. That's probably true for a lot of people here. That's somewhat flipped now, though the football team isn't as bad now as the hoops team was then. I think my generation has more of a connection to the football team but it wouldn't surprise me if students from the last 4-5 years stay with the hoops team when they graduate.

The point of my photo wasn't to shame the kids but to point out to people who said noon starts or weather were the problem that the problems are deeper than that. I don't know exactly what the answer is but getting kids to care about the team should be a priority.

(10-31-2016 03:29 PM)nj alum Wrote:  I attended from 1976 - 1979. The student section was full. At Homecoming, people sat on the steps. Every home game was a 1:30 start. Here's your list of differences:

1) We were a 1-A program
2) We had a good home schedule
3) There was a huge tailgate lot behind the West Stands
4) Alcohol was present
5) Frats and sororities attended in good numbers
6) We had a fine marching band
7) We were the Indians
8) Vendors came up in the stands, you ordered your big RC, and kept the plastic cups with Indians, feathers, etc... ended up with stacked cups in your dorm room.
9) Alumni side tended to sit and be quiet ... quite the reversal now between students and alumni
10) Alumni left at half time, and a good number never made it back as the tailgate scene was pretty good.
11) Football players lived in freshman dorms with the regular students, and were part of the fraternity scene in their upper class years. Is that happening now? Are they more employees rather than fellow students at the present time?

So, the solution is to recruit the frats and sororities, give out free stuff that can be used by the students in their daily lives (cups and shirts vs. hankies), create a beer garden for the over 21 crowd, re-start a marching band, bring back the feathers, ... and ... wait for it ... go FBS :-) !!!

I love this list, especially the cups! I had about 20 from all over, my wife threw them all out on our last move. Great memory though.

We did have a fine marching band.

The rest though as I was there or following the team during the same period I think is wonderful reminiscing. We never had a single sellout during that period. The closest we came was in 1976 - against, now wait for it - then Division2 Delaware. i don't think the students or alumni thought the competition for home games was any more exciting than today.

We did not play UVA, Navy or Tech (1975 last time and it wasn't sold out) at Cary. My senior year, our home schedule was VMI, ECU, Delaware, The Citadel and App State.

I was back for homecoming, the student section was full. Appeared close to same against Elon and a good contingent for NSU. So we pick one game to make a federal case?

The atmosphere at our games today overall are as good as I can remember.

(10-31-2016 05:18 PM)Tribe17 Wrote:  As was pointed out above the interactions between the team and the general student body is also a big problem. The basketball team is constantly doing things around campus, last week they walked around campus and handed out candy. I would say 75% of students know who Omar Prewitt is and less than 50% know who Steve Cluley is, that is a problem. I also personally heard coach Laycock scoff at the notion of being a part of the Homecoming parade and I don't think it's good to send a message to your team that participating in campus wide activities like the parade is something that is beneath you.

That doesn't surprise me about Laycock. When I was a student about 10 years ago, the only time I ever saw Laycock was in the Caf on Fridays before home games. The kitchen staff would make some bastardized PB&J with Rice Krispies in a tortilla - they called it the Laycock special or something like that. He never seemed thrilled to be there. Of course that could have more to do with being at the Caf than not wanting to be in the same place as students! I saw the basketball team's reverse trick or treating pictures on Instagram. Obviously was unsure if it was a one off thing, but from Tribe17's post, certainly sounds like they are trying to engage with students on a regular basis. The more inclusive an environment they can create, the more often students will show up to support them. What's interesting is the type of ground swell they are getting from such a small number of guys - 10 or so vs 60 or so on the football team. With that said, I don't think it's the job of these student athletes to try to hold events around campus to excite students about athletics. The football players I knew and had classes with were all extremely nice, intelligent guys that were living proof of the term "student athlete". They simply don't stack up to the basketball team when it comes to engaging students as the basketball team has set the bar so high. The basketball team's strategy to draw students in seems to be working. Perhaps if the football team wants similar results they should take a page out of the basketball team's playbook.

(10-31-2016 06:22 PM)Rocco Wrote:  As I've mentioned before, when I was at W&M the football team had 3 winning seasons out of 4 and generally played entertaining football even if it was a style of play doomed to fail. The basketball team was a combination of bad and boring. That's probably true for a lot of people here. That's somewhat flipped now, though the football team isn't as bad now as the hoops team was then. I think my generation has more of a connection to the football team but it wouldn't surprise me if students from the last 4-5 years stay with the hoops team when they graduate.

The point of my photo wasn't to shame the kids but to point out to people who said noon starts or weather were the problem that the problems are deeper than that. I don't know exactly what the answer is but getting kids to care about the team should be a priority.

Nailed it on all parts of this post, Rocco.

As for football vs. basketball allegiance: I'm a 2010 grad, drove to Villanova, UVA, Richmond AND Southern Illinois for football games, but honestly, I follow the basketball team 100X closer than the football team. My scientific research (my social media feeds) seem to indicate most of those in and around my graduation years have similar Tribe sports preferences. Even the alum that is the "casual fan" starts getting excited around the end of basketball season.

But most importantly, as you said, getting students to care about the team is the priority. I'd take it one step for it further--getting them to care about the Athletics Program at large is the biggest priority.

(10-31-2016 05:18 PM)Tribe17 Wrote:  The basketball team is constantly doing things around campus, last week they walked around campus and handed out candy.

Side note for another thread for another day: Stuff like this, in my opinion, is a large reason why we are lucky to have Coach Shaver.

When I was on campus, Coach wasn't asking the students for help. He was asking how he and the team could help the students. Even if the Halloween idea wasn't a mandate/an idea directly from Tony, he's instilling that culture.

Finding great coaches is important and a huge priority. Finding great coaches that produce quality teams AND invest in the student body at large to make WM a better place is an entirely different thing.

If we're giving shoutouts how about one for Spencer Milne. No one works harder to improve student atmosphere. You'd be hard pressed to find a positive change to our atmosphere that Spencer didn't contribute to in some manner

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(10-31-2016 07:36 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  If we're giving shoutouts how about one for Spencer Milne. No one works harder to improve student atmosphere. You'd be hard pressed to find a positive change to our atmosphere that Spencer didn't contribute to in some manner

+1. That guy pours more into W&M than many will ever realize.

(10-31-2016 05:18 PM)Tribe17 Wrote:  As was pointed out above the interactions between the team and the general student body is also a big problem. The basketball team is constantly doing things around campus, last week they walked around campus and handed out candy. I would say 75% of students know who Omar Prewitt is and less than 50% know who Steve Cluley is, that is a problem. I also personally heard coach Laycock scoff at the notion of being a part of the Homecoming parade and I don't think it's good to send a message to your team that participating in campus wide activities like the parade is something that is beneath you.

There's something to be said for the size of the respective teams, too. For the football team, you can keep to the team socially and still have a huge group of friends; there's probably at least 3-4 distinct groups that hang out together just on the team. I know our basketball team has gotten a reputation (rightfully so) for being very close-knit, but there's only 12-15 guys there. You're almost forced to look outside the team for social interaction, especially when it comes to classes. That said, these examples go beyond just simple socialization, and it sounds like the basketball team makes a real effort to engage the rest of campus.

(10-31-2016 05:18 PM)Tribe17 Wrote:  It shocks me that a school so focused on tradition has virtually no established traditions when it comes to football. I was mad when I saw the Maine players all go over to their fans and do a chant with them after the game because we don't have anything like that. After the game the players should come over and sing the alma mater with the student section, or do anything to acknowledge that we exist. There should also be more emphasis placed on the history of the program. The amount of interesting facts I have learned about this program over the last four years is astounding. Most students think our football team is D3 and have no idea that our school beat Oklahoma State in a bowl game, or even that they were the two seed in the playoffs just six years ago.

Teams often have a closer relationship with their road fans, especially when they're far from home. I mean, the Maine fans at the game on Saturday had to be diehards. When we're on the road and get a big win, it's easier to go high five one section than it is to run around the whole stadium at home. Maybe there is something to having the student section closer to the locker room, though. Prior to the Laycock Center the locker room was underneath the East bleachers and lent itself more to connecting with the student section.