(08-18-2016 11:33 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-18-2016 11:10 AM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  

(08-18-2016 10:54 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-18-2016 10:27 AM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  I find it very sad that a religion based school is conforming to liberal agenda's. Call me what you will, I'm a black guy in Alabama who has my fair share of discrimination on a weekly basis. I went to a high school where kids were always doing things like throwing paper in my afro, calling me the N word, and making jokes about drinking the same water. And I graduated high school in 2008 not the 50's.....And even with a graduate level education I still experience nonsense like this.

But I find it very sad that that things such as who you choose to engage in coitus with is being compared to real discrimination.

I find it sad, but not surprising, that you would feel like that. As a Gay man who grew up in Alabama in the 1980's, I'm pretty sure I know what discrimination is. Your experience was probably different than mine, but at least you had family and social institutions to rely on when abused. LGBT youth frequently don't. Discrimination and demeaning of LGBT persons knows no color. What's truly sad as I don't think you actually think that discrimination against LGBT persons is even bad. You obviously don't think it is 'real'. Noted.

I'll throw out my example...to keep this on sports.

Was it okay for Alabama to bar Blacks from jobs and opportunities in its athletic programs in the mid 1960s? They could argue that other schools in the SEC didn't discriminate (Kentucky). They could argue that the Blacks could go to Tuskegee? But as you know, to take one of a limited number of opportunities and to ban Blacks from that opportunity is to lessen the total number of opportunities for Black players and coaches. And that Tuskegee, with its lower funding, was never able to provide the exposure and salaries that Alabama could.

Why is it any different if BYU bars married LGBT persons from jobs and opportunities in 2016. They can argue that others schools in the Big XII don't discriminate. They could argue that LGBT persons can just play and coach at New Mexico State. But there are a limited number of places in the P5. To effectively bar LGBT persons from some of the very limited number of spots is to reduce the opportunity for LGBT players and coaches. And no, NMSU doesn't have the budget or the exposure of a Big XII team.

I see the two examples as extremely similar. Only difference I see is that one puts an "Amen" at the end of their policies and that the targeted minority is different. Exact same impact on the targeted minority.

I suspect you don't think that discrimination against LGBT persons is wrong (or even advocate it). But what I'm not going to allow you to do, without challenge, is to argue that the discrimination isn't real.

Tom,

Let me say this, I can sympathize that the LGBT's do go through very unfortunate treatment that is in fact discrimination. And I see the point you are trying to make with the Tuskegee reference.

But here is the difference to me in that and I will go ahead and say I'm a Christian. There are many things that I can choose in life despite how I want to feel about them. I don't want to give 10% of my income to the church every month. When you give 10% of a six figure salary it's a lot of money that could go into savings, your mortgage, fun, or whatever. I don't want to not be able to go to bars and do fun things I loved to do in college. I don't always want to put the needs of others before my own. But I do all of these things because Christ calls me to. But where I'm going is all of this is a choice that I have to constantly battle.

I can't choose not to be black just like I can't be composed of mostly water. However, I can make a choice on all of those things I listed above and how I conduct myself sexually. And let me tell you a secret, as a Christian I'm often discriminated against in addition to being black. I can feel the eyes starring at me if I pray before eating. But if someone ever told me that I could not do something because I made a choice to be Christian I would not fight them on the grounds of discrimination because it's a choice that I alone made.

And again Tom, despite any negative or sarcastic comments I make just know I love you man. It's very sad to hear that you had to go through those things too.

Thank you.

But if you excuse BYU taking those slots from LGBT persons, you are effectively making decisions for others that might not share your faith. P5 membership is a zero sum game. One school gets in at the expense of another.

There is a long running argument as to whether being LGBT is a choice or not. I don't think it is. I've never been anything but that and life would have certainly been easier otherwise. Even if it isn't a choice, it isn't the choice of anyone else or the Big XII. For the Big XII to effectively penalize being LGBT is wrong IMHO. I'd also argue that it really isn't a choice. Just one that can be hidden, although at a great cost to the hider.

Just a style note on the public praying before eating. Culturally, and this isn't a LGBT thing, overt displays of faith in secular environments can provide others with the impression that you're 'wearing your faith on your shirtsleeves'. Some, even many "Christians" might think that you're putting on a show. Unfair? Probably. But that's just the way it is. I get that you may come from a culture where that is expected. But just know that in some other Christian traditions, its considered out of place. I'm worldly enough to know that I don't know what the person's motivation is for doing so (and that in certain cultures - that it is expected), and so I'm just going to let them do what they feel they have to do without judgement about them or their motivations. Others might be less so understanding. Sadly, I think part of the pushback might be subconcious racism - as African Americans tend to do so much more often than others. Either way, you won't get kicked out of any NCAA institution for doing so. By the way, I'm being consistent. If I don't want others to discriminate against me as a Gay man for doing something like holding hands in public (again a cultural thing), then I can't discriminate against others for publicly doing something that their culture dictates. General rule...if it ain't being targeted at me, and its volunatary, and there's no compulsion, then it ain't my business.

So people judge Christians if they display their faith?

How tolerant!

(08-18-2016 10:15 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-18-2016 09:42 AM)f1do Wrote:  Does it only apply to the law school?
--According to the story (no official word from BYU yet), the changes are in response to the religious discrimination complaint to the ABA, not the title IX complaint--which is still under investigation (by the DOE). The updates apply to BYU in Provo of which the law school is a part. BYU-Hawaii or BYU-Idaho are separate institutions with their own leadership structures and policies (though the honor code policy is very similar). Might they adopt the changes made in Provo to avoid future issues? Maybe, remains to be seen.

The other items you complain about have not been addressed yet (though your objections are duly noted). The DOE investigation is still in process, and the internal study has only been going on for less than a month--since July--when the complaint was filed. For some strange reason I don't think BYU will copy/paste your proposed language and be done with it.

Does the Big XII want a school that only changes when sued and is also faced with bad press?

Isn't that what mormons do? Public or systematic pressure is followed by some revelation and then BOOM, **** changes.

However, most schools have been forced to change something because they got sued or got bad press.

(08-19-2016 08:55 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(08-18-2016 11:33 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-18-2016 11:10 AM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  

(08-18-2016 10:54 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-18-2016 10:27 AM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  I find it very sad that a religion based school is conforming to liberal agenda's. Call me what you will, I'm a black guy in Alabama who has my fair share of discrimination on a weekly basis. I went to a high school where kids were always doing things like throwing paper in my afro, calling me the N word, and making jokes about drinking the same water. And I graduated high school in 2008 not the 50's.....And even with a graduate level education I still experience nonsense like this.

But I find it very sad that that things such as who you choose to engage in coitus with is being compared to real discrimination.

I find it sad, but not surprising, that you would feel like that. As a Gay man who grew up in Alabama in the 1980's, I'm pretty sure I know what discrimination is. Your experience was probably different than mine, but at least you had family and social institutions to rely on when abused. LGBT youth frequently don't. Discrimination and demeaning of LGBT persons knows no color. What's truly sad as I don't think you actually think that discrimination against LGBT persons is even bad. You obviously don't think it is 'real'. Noted.

I'll throw out my example...to keep this on sports.

Was it okay for Alabama to bar Blacks from jobs and opportunities in its athletic programs in the mid 1960s? They could argue that other schools in the SEC didn't discriminate (Kentucky). They could argue that the Blacks could go to Tuskegee? But as you know, to take one of a limited number of opportunities and to ban Blacks from that opportunity is to lessen the total number of opportunities for Black players and coaches. And that Tuskegee, with its lower funding, was never able to provide the exposure and salaries that Alabama could.

Why is it any different if BYU bars married LGBT persons from jobs and opportunities in 2016. They can argue that others schools in the Big XII don't discriminate. They could argue that LGBT persons can just play and coach at New Mexico State. But there are a limited number of places in the P5. To effectively bar LGBT persons from some of the very limited number of spots is to reduce the opportunity for LGBT players and coaches. And no, NMSU doesn't have the budget or the exposure of a Big XII team.

I see the two examples as extremely similar. Only difference I see is that one puts an "Amen" at the end of their policies and that the targeted minority is different. Exact same impact on the targeted minority.

I suspect you don't think that discrimination against LGBT persons is wrong (or even advocate it). But what I'm not going to allow you to do, without challenge, is to argue that the discrimination isn't real.

Tom,

Let me say this, I can sympathize that the LGBT's do go through very unfortunate treatment that is in fact discrimination. And I see the point you are trying to make with the Tuskegee reference.

But here is the difference to me in that and I will go ahead and say I'm a Christian. There are many things that I can choose in life despite how I want to feel about them. I don't want to give 10% of my income to the church every month. When you give 10% of a six figure salary it's a lot of money that could go into savings, your mortgage, fun, or whatever. I don't want to not be able to go to bars and do fun things I loved to do in college. I don't always want to put the needs of others before my own. But I do all of these things because Christ calls me to. But where I'm going is all of this is a choice that I have to constantly battle.

I can't choose not to be black just like I can't be composed of mostly water. However, I can make a choice on all of those things I listed above and how I conduct myself sexually. And let me tell you a secret, as a Christian I'm often discriminated against in addition to being black. I can feel the eyes starring at me if I pray before eating. But if someone ever told me that I could not do something because I made a choice to be Christian I would not fight them on the grounds of discrimination because it's a choice that I alone made.

And again Tom, despite any negative or sarcastic comments I make just know I love you man. It's very sad to hear that you had to go through those things too.

Thank you.

But if you excuse BYU taking those slots from LGBT persons, you are effectively making decisions for others that might not share your faith. P5 membership is a zero sum game. One school gets in at the expense of another.

There is a long running argument as to whether being LGBT is a choice or not. I don't think it is. I've never been anything but that and life would have certainly been easier otherwise. Even if it isn't a choice, it isn't the choice of anyone else or the Big XII. For the Big XII to effectively penalize being LGBT is wrong IMHO. I'd also argue that it really isn't a choice. Just one that can be hidden, although at a great cost to the hider.

Just a style note on the public praying before eating. Culturally, and this isn't a LGBT thing, overt displays of faith in secular environments can provide others with the impression that you're 'wearing your faith on your shirtsleeves'. Some, even many "Christians" might think that you're putting on a show. Unfair? Probably. But that's just the way it is. I get that you may come from a culture where that is expected. But just know that in some other Christian traditions, its considered out of place. I'm worldly enough to know that I don't know what the person's motivation is for doing so (and that in certain cultures - that it is expected), and so I'm just going to let them do what they feel they have to do without judgement about them or their motivations. Others might be less so understanding. Sadly, I think part of the pushback might be subconcious racism - as African Americans tend to do so much more often than others. Either way, you won't get kicked out of any NCAA institution for doing so. By the way, I'm being consistent. If I don't want others to discriminate against me as a Gay man for doing something like holding hands in public (again a cultural thing), then I can't discriminate against others for publicly doing something that their culture dictates. General rule...if it ain't being targeted at me, and its volunatary, and there's no compulsion, then it ain't my business.

So people judge Christians if they display their faith?

How tolerant!

Yes, some do. People feel that public displays are directed AT them. Usually they aren't. Sometimes they are. For me, the question I ask is this...are they expecting me to participate, even with silence, in their religiousity?

I think a lot of people find the apparent need for some people to constantly throw out about Jesus or God to be offputting. Remember, the people you are commenting about God around didn't choose to go to church. Nor did the viewers of a sporting contest either. Right or wrong, that's where most of the rolled eyes come from. Or they might think you're praying AT them. I understand that in many cases, its really just a cultural thing.

And sometimes its not just people being anti-Christian either. In some other Christian traditions, its considered to be prideful (which is considered sinful by some) to claim to speak for God, or to presume that God is concerned with trivial matters like a ham sandwich or a Touchdown. Or to 'wear religion on their shirtsleeves'. Matthew 6:5-15 I think is the particular verse that speaks to that. Whether that's the intent or not, that's how some might read it.

Personally, I don't want religion with my real estate transaction, my sporting event, my lunch, etc. And I certainly don't want someone else's religion with those things either. If I did, I'd go to church. But, so long as you're not expecting others to participate in it (or stop what they're doing because you're praying), or wasting my time by making me listen to it in order to do what I need to do, I'm willing to assume that the person doing so is doing so because they feel they need to do so. But I still wonder why they have to do so visibly or audibly if they're just doing it for themselves. Usually No big deal for me.

Again, I think there's a cultural divide on this one. But understand that when you use secular spaces to present religion, that people didn't ask you for that, and might have any number of reasons to not enjoy it.

(08-19-2016 10:54 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(08-18-2016 10:15 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(08-18-2016 09:42 AM)f1do Wrote:  Does it only apply to the law school?
--According to the story (no official word from BYU yet), the changes are in response to the religious discrimination complaint to the ABA, not the title IX complaint--which is still under investigation (by the DOE). The updates apply to BYU in Provo of which the law school is a part. BYU-Hawaii or BYU-Idaho are separate institutions with their own leadership structures and policies (though the honor code policy is very similar). Might they adopt the changes made in Provo to avoid future issues? Maybe, remains to be seen.

The other items you complain about have not been addressed yet (though your objections are duly noted). The DOE investigation is still in process, and the internal study has only been going on for less than a month--since July--when the complaint was filed. For some strange reason I don't think BYU will copy/paste your proposed language and be done with it.

Does the Big XII want a school that only changes when sued and is also faced with bad press?

Isn't that what mormons do? Public or systematic pressure is followed by some revelation and then BOOM, **** changes.

However, most schools have been forced to change something because they got sued or got bad press.

1978 says yes.