I enjoyed the video very much. As a member of the class of 1975, I saw classmates and others I knew in the campus shots as well as the athletics. Thanks for sharing this!
(11-24-2015 08:00 AM)3xTribe Wrote: Thanks, 4SF, you saved me a lengthy post. Your conclusion reflects my opinion exactly. I really just don't see how W&M would have pursued effectively a I-A status. I was trying to think of some schools with similar size and academic profiles to ours that play with the big boys. The two best comps I could think of were Wake Forest and BC, both private. Correct me if I'm wrong (I know someone will), but we are constrained in how we spend money on athletics in ways that private schools are not. Perhaps there is a public analog to W&M that plays FBS, but they certainly aren't Power 5. I'd much rather watch competitive FCS football in our intimate little stadium than be part of Conference USA and still not compete at a national level.
I don't think anyone here would trade CAA football for C-USA. That conference is a massive waste of time. But it seems like we could have been in the ACC or at least the SoCon could have been 1-A. Those seem like a bunch of traditional football schools who got a raw deal. I know we still wouldn't compete on a national level but I'd rather be non-competitive in the ACC than dominant in the CAA. Simply because of the quality of the schools we'd be playing. Plus even a blind squirrel find a nut once in a while. We'd have our seasons where we'd be OK. I know the big problem is that there are no analogous schools. (My roommates and I once went through every FBS school to see if there were any our size and public. We couldn't find any.) I do wish the College would play up its athletic history more though. The Delta Bowl, the Iron Indians, Lou Holtz, Marv Levy, even the Scandal of 1951 are all important and fascinating parts of the school's history that the average students know nothing about.
(11-23-2015 03:59 PM)zablenoise Wrote: Thanks for posting! I always love watching old W&M athletic videos. Mr. J I'd definitely love to see those old coach's shows as well.
Though, watching these always make me wonder what happened. Every time I watch an old video we're playing ACC schools and discussing expanding the athletic department but now we play Towson and struggle to fill home games. The oddest part to me is that the athletic history of the College isn't even known by most students. It seems that I found a new shocking discovery about the school every other week. So what happened? How did we end up where we are now?
Part of the answer is that FCS football, formerly I-AA, didn't exist until 1978. In the 1960's and 1970's we were playing a few more large schools, but most of our schedule was the VMI, UR, Furman, East Carolina (before they were a bigger deal), Citadel type of opponent. We did play Virginia Tech and West Virginia regularly, however. You have to go back to the old Southern conference prior to 1953 to find us playing very many big time opponents. In my opinion, I-AA was the best thing that ever happened to Tribe football.
Another big turning point was the decision not to expand Cary Field in the 1970's to help get us into the next tier. The broader campus community was deeply opposed, but with the move to I-AA the point was moot. Until now. I can't wait to see the finished product.
Out of curiosity, why do you say that I-AA was the best thing that ever happened to Tribe football?
While there were some who wanted the football program to remain I-A, the requirement then was that a 30,000 seat stadium was the minimum to be I-A. The increased scholarships needed, plus the stadium cost (either expansion, which was impractical, or a new stadium) simply did not have broad enough support to be feasible.
The advent of I-AA was drawing many schools who were considered to be peers. The Ivies, and most of our former Southern Conference mates were headed there.
While the decision to go I-AA was primarily a financial one, the evolution of I-AA quickly showed it was the preferable level for Tribe Football. By 1986 we were enjoying post-season play, and seeing the development of meaningful rivalries. The move to the Yankee Conference in 1993 was the final piece of the I-AA puzzle.
I am among those who believe that I-AA was a very positive development in the history of Tribe Football. It allowed us to develop a program that could compete consistently while attracting true student-athletes who are truly representative of The College.
For those of you who were there, what year was the whole decision to go up or down (I-AA or I-A)? What were the main controversies at the time (list of arguments from both sides), who was on each side, and how did the decision ultimately get made? It's pretty fascinating stuff.
The split (1A and 1AA) was actually formed and mandated by the NCAA in 1981. W&M was pushed down into the 1AA bracket based on the requirements then established (30,000 seat stadium or 15,000 average attendance) that we did not meet to be a 1A member. Others that were downgraded down based on this new requirement were the Ivy, SoCon and MAC, indies such as Colgate and Holy Cross - all at the time playing D1. Even Cincinnati as an independent as I recall was initially relegated down.
There was a timeframe established where conferences and schools could try to re-qualify to the new 1A. The MAC and Cincinnati were the two that successfully did - though in the MAC's case, they pulled out all stops to get the league's attendance average above 15,000 for one year - which would qualify them all to move back up as a conference. They had giveaways, etc. - anything to inflate. I even remember a game UR had with Ohio U was moved to the Ohio State stadium to try and pump up the numbers.
I don't think W&M ever felt they could meet the requirements in short order - and most of our rivals had also been downgraded (UR, VMI, the SoCon).
Within a year of the new requirement in 1982, W&M announced they were joining a new league with Colgate and Holy Cross (both also downgraded) called the Colonial League, which is today's Patriot League. Also included in that league were Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell. We never followed through on this as there were later stipulations as the conference formed on scholarship and post season bans - neither of which W&M wanted to follow that route. UR and JMU also were influential then in persuading W&M not to join as they were pushing for a more local alignment - which became the ECAC South, today known as the CAA.
(11-24-2015 01:15 PM)Sitting bull Wrote: The split (1A and 1AA) was actually formed and mandated by the NCAA in 1981. W&M was pushed down into the 1AA bracket based on the requirements then established (30,000 seat stadium or 15,000 average attendance) that we did not meet to be a 1A member. Others that were downgraded down based on this new requirement were the Ivy, SoCon and MAC, indies such as Colgate and Holy Cross - all at the time playing D1. Even Cincinnati as an independent as I recall was initially relegated down.
There was a timeframe established where conferences and schools could try to re-qualify to the new 1A. The MAC and Cincinnati were the two that successfully did - though in the MAC's case, they pulled out all stops to get the league's attendance average above 15,000 for one year - which would qualify them all to move back up as a conference. They had giveaways, etc. - anything to inflate. I even remember a game UR had with Ohio U was moved to the Ohio State stadium to try and pump up the numbers.
I don't think W&M ever felt they could meet the requirements in short order - and most of our rivals had also been downgraded (UR, VMI, the SoCon).
Within a year of the new requirement in 1982, W&M announced they were joining a new league with Colgate and Holy Cross (both also downgraded) called the Colonial League, which is today's Patriot League. Also included in that league were Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell. We never followed through on this as there were later stipulations as the conference formed on scholarship and post season bans - neither of which W&M wanted to follow that route. UR and JMU also were influential then in persuading W&M not to join as they were pushing for a more local alignment - which became the ECAC South, today known as the CAA.
Thank you for this. This is the most succinct explanation I've ever read on the 1-AA split. I've also heard the Sunbelt moved up as a full conference. Is that true?
All of this is interesting, but if we had taken the offer to join the ACC, based on ODU's attendance and continuously sold-out status, I wonder if we could have made it to the 15K threshold easier than we thought and then be in the same middling UVA level.
(11-24-2015 01:15 PM)Sitting bull Wrote: The split (1A and 1AA) was actually formed and mandated by the NCAA in 1981. W&M was pushed down into the 1AA bracket based on the requirements then established (30,000 seat stadium or 15,000 average attendance) that we did not meet to be a 1A member. Others that were downgraded down based on this new requirement were the Ivy, SoCon and MAC, indies such as Colgate and Holy Cross - all at the time playing D1. Even Cincinnati as an independent as I recall was initially relegated down.
There was a timeframe established where conferences and schools could try to re-qualify to the new 1A. The MAC and Cincinnati were the two that successfully did - though in the MAC's case, they pulled out all stops to get the league's attendance average above 15,000 for one year - which would qualify them all to move back up as a conference. They had giveaways, etc. - anything to inflate. I even remember a game UR had with Ohio U was moved to the Ohio State stadium to try and pump up the numbers.
I don't think W&M ever felt they could meet the requirements in short order - and most of our rivals had also been downgraded (UR, VMI, the SoCon).
Within a year of the new requirement in 1982, W&M announced they were joining a new league with Colgate and Holy Cross (both also downgraded) called the Colonial League, which is today's Patriot League. Also included in that league were Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell. We never followed through on this as there were later stipulations as the conference formed on scholarship and post season bans - neither of which W&M wanted to follow that route. UR and JMU also were influential then in persuading W&M not to join as they were pushing for a more local alignment - which became the ECAC South, today known as the CAA.
Thank you for this. This is the most succinct explanation I've ever read on the 1-AA split. I've also heard the Sunbelt moved up as a full conference. Is that true?
There was no Sun Belt, at least not playing football, back then.
The Sun Belt started as a basketball league, a southern attempt to duplicate the early success of the Big East. It was initially made up of schools that were located in metro areas. ODU actually bolted the ECAC South to join - then later came back. Others in the league initially were UNCC, South Florida, New Orleans, Georgia State, UAB. None were playing football.
(11-24-2015 01:29 PM)nogretheogre Wrote: All of this is interesting, but if we had taken the offer to join the ACC, based on ODU's attendance and continuously sold-out status, I wonder if we could have made it to the 15K threshold easier than we thought and then be in the same middling UVA level.
The ACC flirtation came 10 years earlier when it was actually a viable conversation. When this was floated in 1970, the ACC was a 7 league conference of like minded Universities (Duke/Wake/UNC/UVA/Maryland/NC State/Clemson). South Carolina had just bolted, upset at the ACC's basketball tournament - so the ACC was looking for a filler.
W&M was first in line and support at this brief time - we had the Hall, Lou Holtz, etc. - though a change in leadership (Paschall to Graves) moved us in a different direction (more Ivy focused). At the time, the Ivy was playing at the same D1 level as the ACC so it wasn't seen then as such a huge shift in direction.
Georgia Tech eventually took that 8th slot in the ACC - then came ESPN - money - etc. - and all the leagues started making decisions based on TV, market share, etc. - not in relation to local or academic fit.
By the time the 1A/1AA split came in 1981, the cast was already set.
I agree with most others here, I like where we ended up. FCS has been a very successful home for W&M and we have more peers/rivals playing at this level than we do in FBS.
(11-24-2015 01:29 PM)nogretheogre Wrote: All of this is interesting, but if we had taken the offer to join the ACC, based on ODU's attendance and continuously sold-out status, I wonder if we could have made it to the 15K threshold easier than we thought and then be in the same middling UVA level.
I believe W&M would have. Back in those days we did draw from the NN,Hampton, Northern Neck areas and if unc, Duke , NCSU, Wake and other well known schools played here the crowds would gave come. ACC basketball was already quite popular back then with a large regional TV network showcasing the conference.
One factor with Cary Field expansion was the money was in place with a full pledge from Jimmy Maloney, founder of The Pottery.
I got a kick out of the film ...in the background of the basketball game I see a young Tribe Fan in the stands...gee, was I really that skinny at one point in my life ?
(This post was last modified: 11-24-2015 04:30 PM by Tribe Fan.)
(11-24-2015 08:00 AM)3xTribe Wrote: Thanks, 4SF, you saved me a lengthy post. Your conclusion reflects my opinion exactly. I really just don't see how W&M would have pursued effectively a I-A status. I was trying to think of some schools with similar size and academic profiles to ours that play with the big boys. The two best comps I could think of were Wake Forest and BC, both private. Correct me if I'm wrong (I know someone will), but we are constrained in how we spend money on athletics in ways that private schools are not. Perhaps there is a public analog to W&M that plays FBS, but they certainly aren't Power 5. I'd much rather watch competitive FCS football in our intimate little stadium than be part of Conference USA and still not compete at a national level.
I don't think anyone here would trade CAA football for C-USA. That conference is a massive waste of time. But it seems like we could have been in the ACC or at least the SoCon could have been 1-A. Those seem like a bunch of traditional football schools who got a raw deal. I know we still wouldn't compete on a national level but I'd rather be non-competitive in the ACC than dominant in the CAA. Simply because of the quality of the schools we'd be playing. Plus even a blind squirrel find a nut once in a while. We'd have our seasons where we'd be OK. I know the big problem is that there are no analogous schools. (My roommates and I once went through every FBS school to see if there were any our size and public. We couldn't find any.) I do wish the College would play up its athletic history more though. The Delta Bowl, the Iron Indians, Lou Holtz, Marv Levy, even the Scandal of 1951 are all important and fascinating parts of the school's history that the average students know nothing about.
I've heard of the Scandal of 1951, but don't know the whole story. Can you or anyone else explain?
(11-24-2015 08:00 AM)3xTribe Wrote: Thanks, 4SF, you saved me a lengthy post. Your conclusion reflects my opinion exactly. I really just don't see how W&M would have pursued effectively a I-A status. I was trying to think of some schools with similar size and academic profiles to ours that play with the big boys. The two best comps I could think of were Wake Forest and BC, both private. Correct me if I'm wrong (I know someone will), but we are constrained in how we spend money on athletics in ways that private schools are not. Perhaps there is a public analog to W&M that plays FBS, but they certainly aren't Power 5. I'd much rather watch competitive FCS football in our intimate little stadium than be part of Conference USA and still not compete at a national level.
I don't think anyone here would trade CAA football for C-USA. That conference is a massive waste of time. But it seems like we could have been in the ACC or at least the SoCon could have been 1-A. Those seem like a bunch of traditional football schools who got a raw deal. I know we still wouldn't compete on a national level but I'd rather be non-competitive in the ACC than dominant in the CAA. Simply because of the quality of the schools we'd be playing. Plus even a blind squirrel find a nut once in a while. We'd have our seasons where we'd be OK. I know the big problem is that there are no analogous schools. (My roommates and I once went through every FBS school to see if there were any our size and public. We couldn't find any.) I do wish the College would play up its athletic history more though. The Delta Bowl, the Iron Indians, Lou Holtz, Marv Levy, even the Scandal of 1951 are all important and fascinating parts of the school's history that the average students know nothing about.
I've heard of the Scandal of 1951, but don't know the whole story. Can you or anyone else explain?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Google: W&M Football scandal of 1951. One of the hits will be a Masters Thesis on this subject written by a Graduate Student. It is fascinating reading.
(11-24-2015 08:00 AM)3xTribe Wrote: Thanks, 4SF, you saved me a lengthy post. Your conclusion reflects my opinion exactly. I really just don't see how W&M would have pursued effectively a I-A status. I was trying to think of some schools with similar size and academic profiles to ours that play with the big boys. The two best comps I could think of were Wake Forest and BC, both private. Correct me if I'm wrong (I know someone will), but we are constrained in how we spend money on athletics in ways that private schools are not. Perhaps there is a public analog to W&M that plays FBS, but they certainly aren't Power 5. I'd much rather watch competitive FCS football in our intimate little stadium than be part of Conference USA and still not compete at a national level.
I don't think anyone here would trade CAA football for C-USA. That conference is a massive waste of time. But it seems like we could have been in the ACC or at least the SoCon could have been 1-A. Those seem like a bunch of traditional football schools who got a raw deal. I know we still wouldn't compete on a national level but I'd rather be non-competitive in the ACC than dominant in the CAA. Simply because of the quality of the schools we'd be playing. Plus even a blind squirrel find a nut once in a while. We'd have our seasons where we'd be OK. I know the big problem is that there are no analogous schools. (My roommates and I once went through every FBS school to see if there were any our size and public. We couldn't find any.) I do wish the College would play up its athletic history more though. The Delta Bowl, the Iron Indians, Lou Holtz, Marv Levy, even the Scandal of 1951 are all important and fascinating parts of the school's history that the average students know nothing about.
I've heard of the Scandal of 1951, but don't know the whole story. Can you or anyone else explain?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Google: W&M Football scandal of 1951. One of the hits will be a Masters Thesis on this subject written by a Graduate Student. It is fascinating reading.
