Let's keep the discussion civilized. It's not intended to be a bash ODU thread.

If I drove my child to college and saw this garbage, I'd lose my mind. It's important to point out that universities can't control everything that happens on or near campus grounds. As it happens, these trashy signs were off-campus. I do think ODU and the fraternity official appropriately handled this situation.

My response would be to shut down the fraternity and expel all involved from ODU. You don't get a mulligan for this type of behavior.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/natio.../32298193/

I just went over to the JMU board assuming they'd picked this up. "Habituated" comes to mind.

Another example of political correctness running rampant throughout the land.

Honestly, I think suspending the fraternity is overboard.

Is it awful behavior? Yes. Should the national chapter make them take the signs down and reprimand them? Sure.

Suspending the fraternity for sophomoric sex humor? That seems WAY over the top to me. To say they should be expelled is just ridiculous IMO. I'm usually on board with you on most topics Tribal, but I think you're far overboard on this one.

Stupid college kids are going to do stupid college kid things. No reason to make this more than it is.

Sigma Nu's nationals suspended the fraternity, not ODU. As a public university, they can't really suspend or punish the kids sure to freedom of speech

I understand this happens at other universities and I know all too well that young men do stupid things.

My reasoning on expelling the idiots involved comes down to a few points.

Sexual abuse, exploitation, harassment, etc on college campuses has been front page news for the past decade. Most universities have a zero tolerance policy on sexual misconduct and harrassment. It's also covered under Title IV.

Universities, whether we like it or not, are businesses. These signs project an image--now a national image--of ODU that is damaging and bad for business.

W&M has clear policies defining sexual harassment and includes possible punishment of "permanent dismissal" from school. I agree with that. I'd get fired for hanging a sign like that at work.

That first amendment is a tricky thing. On a moral level, I agree with Tribal about the statements regarding freshmen girls. If I had been a parent of a first year female student, my instinctive reaction would have been to put the car in reverse and drive back home, and place said female student in sequestration for a year.

However, that would be overly protective and counter productive. Additionally, I feel that the price of functioning as an adult in a free society with protections for expression is exposure to rude, vulgar, offensive, tasteless, racist, and sexist statements, lyrics, movies, videos. Unfortunately, my opinion seems to be in the minority these days.

Nothing in the banners attempted to associate the statements of the relevant students with ODU, or official ODU policy. The statements, while suggestive of sophomoric fraternity behavior, did not in any way reference or suggest rape or sexual assault. Attempting to stifle vulgar, offensive, criminal, racist, or sexist behavior through official University policy is fundamentally distinct from attempting to stifle or punish vulgar, offensive, racist or sexist expression. Its a thin line, but a very important one, and I think in this case ODU would be overstepping that line by taking action against these students, in order to avoid any reputational risk. Policing what is at heart an example of bad taste is not, in my opinion, an appropriate exercise of University jurisdiction, particularly since the relevant conduct occurred off-campus.

And, in due fairness, while I felt the signs about dropping off freshmen girls were revolting, I had a bit of a chuckle about the "drop mom off too" sign. I suppose I felt that was more amusing, and I doubt any mothers were truly offended.

I am overprotective and a bit bull-headed when it comes to this sort of behavior. As a dad, I view the signs as a threat..."leave you're wife and daughter here and we'll take extra special care of them." That would just make me want to stop the car and ask my wife to arrange bail.

I think Title IV provides an avenue for the school President to "censor" the fratboys.

(08-25-2015 09:30 AM)Tribal Wrote:  I am overprotective and a bit bull-headed when it comes to this sort of behavior. As a dad, I view the signs as a threat..."leave you're wife and daughter here and we'll take extra special care of them." That would just make me want to stop the car and ask my wife to arrange bail.

I think Title IV provides an avenue for the school President to "censor" the fratboys.

I think that is a natural reaction. Fortunately, I doubt your children will ever be monarchs, so with any luck I will never receive a phone call from you, asking me to fly to Virginia for your bond hearing.

I think censorship would be the most appropriate action, if any is taken.

Honestly when I first saw it I thought it was pretty funny. But I'm not a parent.

(08-25-2015 09:21 AM)ttgwm02 Wrote:  That first amendment is a tricky thing. On a moral level, I agree with Tribal about the statements regarding freshmen girls. If I had been a parent of a first year female student, my instinctive reaction would have been to put the car in reverse and drive back home, and place said female student in sequestration for a year.

However, that would be overly protective and counter productive. Additionally, I feel that the price of functioning as an adult in a free society with protections for expression is exposure to rude, vulgar, offensive, tasteless, racist, and sexist statements, lyrics, movies, videos. Unfortunately, my opinion seems to be in the minority these days.

Nothing in the banners attempted to associate the statements of the relevant students with ODU, or official ODU policy. The statements, while suggestive of sophomoric fraternity behavior, did not in any way reference or suggest rape or sexual assault. Attempting to stifle vulgar, offensive, criminal, racist, or sexist behavior through official University policy is fundamentally distinct from attempting to stifle or punish vulgar, offensive, racist or sexist expression. Its a thin line, but a very important one, and I think in this case ODU would be overstepping that line by taking action against these students, in order to avoid any reputational risk. Policing what is at heart an example of bad taste is not, in my opinion, an appropriate exercise of University jurisdiction, particularly since the relevant conduct occurred off-campus.

And, in due fairness, while I felt the signs about dropping off freshmen girls were revolting, I had a bit of a chuckle about the "drop mom off too" sign. I suppose I felt that was more amusing, and I doubt any mothers were truly offended.

Excellent post here.

Colleges should be epicenters of free speech. While this is certainly inappropriate, rude, and frankly disgusting speech imo, expelling students over this speech is not the right way to go. Colleges are becoming very militant about censoring speech, in all areas, that does not fit in with what they want. Comedians are beginning to avoid college campus gigs for this very reasons. Students today cannot handle a debate and conflicting ideas. The most common reaction to a dissenting voice is to shutdown and punish.

(08-25-2015 09:21 AM)ttgwm02 Wrote:  Nothing in the banners attempted to associate the statements of the relevant students with ODU, or official ODU policy.

Not exactly...the sign was displayed as:
ROWDY AND FUN

https://www.thefire.org/public-universit...s-banners/

In this case it was the fraternity chapter that dropped the hammer, which makes sense because frats have taken a beating over the last year and they likely don't want to fight over this issue.

What ever happened to the "good ole days" of frat life when there was a dance in the basement of the house, swallowed gold fish, everybody got drunk and poured mustard over their head ??

(08-25-2015 05:37 PM)Tribe Fan Wrote:  What ever happened to the "good ole days" of frat life when there was a dance in the basement of the house, swallowed gold fish, everybody got drunk and poured mustard over their head ??

Same thing as everything else. Idiots that don't know where the line is ruined it for everyone else.

(08-25-2015 08:39 PM)TribeInTheBurg Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 05:37 PM)Tribe Fan Wrote:  What ever happened to the "good ole days" of frat life when there was a dance in the basement of the house, swallowed gold fish, everybody got drunk and poured mustard over their head ??

Same thing as everything else. Idiots that don't know where the line is ruined it for everyone else.

I think the line got moved.

Goldfish swallowing = animal cruelty

And don't get me started about shellfish ...

(08-26-2015 08:48 AM)Blow Gym rat Wrote:  Goldfish swallowing = animal cruelty

And don't get me started about shellfish ...

Ohh geez....PITA will be on me like a fund raiser on a rich alum...