(08-25-2015 09:27 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:46 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:37 AM)Niner National Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:24 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:20 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  You don't have "all" toll roads.

All the highways. Rarely any traffic.

Where do you live?

Many toll roads are losers.

Central Florida. I use to think the same thing then realized one day that I haven't been in traffic to or from work in 10 years. I spend $7.50/week in tolls. ~$30/mo is worth my sanity and not wasting my life in my car.

Works for you... The wealthy dentist. That's all that matters right?

You are going to pay either way. At least this way I pay for what I use. Don't like toll roads, don't use them. BTW, I also pay for all of my employees toll usage too because it increases their quality of life.

(08-25-2015 09:33 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:24 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:20 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:10 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  We don't really have that problem. We have all toll roads and the toll agency is flush with cash. Roads are expanded quickly when needed. There is talk to use the extra cash and right of way for rail systems.

You don't have "all" toll roads.

All the highways. Rarely any traffic.

Sorry, no you don't. I guess you don't understand.

Thanks for telling me about where I live.

(08-25-2015 09:26 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:37 AM)Niner National Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:24 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:20 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:10 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  We don't really have that problem. We have all toll roads and the toll agency is flush with cash. Roads are expanded quickly when needed. There is talk to use the extra cash and right of way for rail systems.

You don't have "all" toll roads.

All the highways. Rarely any traffic.

Where do you live?

Many toll roads are losers.

They're ALL losers. It's a BS cash grab for political cronies.

This one made $150 million last year.
https://www.cfxway.com/Portals/0/skins/e...2aba4f.pdf

(08-25-2015 09:26 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:37 AM)Niner National Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:24 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:20 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:10 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  We don't really have that problem. We have all toll roads and the toll agency is flush with cash. Roads are expanded quickly when needed. There is talk to use the extra cash and right of way for rail systems.

You don't have "all" toll roads.

All the highways. Rarely any traffic.

Where do you live?

Many toll roads are losers.

They're ALL losers. It's a BS cash grab for political cronies.

Most of the ones in Texas do pretty well. They get built quickly and cheaply and provide new capacity that can't be built otherwise.

The tolls lanes they're planning in the Charlotte area will be owned by a Spanish company. They have a non-compete attached, so if the state tries to add additional free lanes in the future, they have to pay a substantial penalty. It isn't just isolated to adding lanes to the interstate though. If they expand adjacent roads that could be used instead, they also have to pay a penalty.

For 50 years. 50 ******* years.

(08-25-2015 09:45 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 09:26 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:37 AM)Niner National Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:24 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:20 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  You don't have "all" toll roads.

All the highways. Rarely any traffic.

Where do you live?

Many toll roads are losers.

They're ALL losers. It's a BS cash grab for political cronies.

Most of the ones in Texas do pretty well. They get built quickly and cheaply and provide new capacity that can't be built otherwise.

I'm amazed at how much faster construction on toll roads is compared to interstate roads.

(08-25-2015 09:35 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 09:33 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:24 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:20 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:10 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  We don't really have that problem. We have all toll roads and the toll agency is flush with cash. Roads are expanded quickly when needed. There is talk to use the extra cash and right of way for rail systems.

You don't have "all" toll roads.

All the highways. Rarely any traffic.

Sorry, no you don't. I guess you don't understand.

Thanks for telling me about where I live.

I'm looking at a map of Orlando right now. You are telling me US 27, or US 17 is a toll road? Every road that isn't a local street is a tollway?

Of course not.

(08-25-2015 09:53 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 09:35 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 09:33 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:24 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:20 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  You don't have "all" toll roads.

All the highways. Rarely any traffic.

Sorry, no you don't. I guess you don't understand.

Thanks for telling me about where I live.

I'm looking at a map of Orlando right now. You are telling me US 27, or US 17 is a toll road? Every road that isn't a local street is a tollway?

Of course not.

I don't live near 27 but it is a local road in Clermont. 17, which is actually 17/92 is a congested local street through Orlando. When you get outside the metro area they become faster moving roadways, however every metro road that isn't a local street is a tollway or is currently being constructed as a tollway(I-4).

(08-25-2015 09:34 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 09:27 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:46 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:37 AM)Niner National Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:24 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  All the highways. Rarely any traffic.

Where do you live?

Many toll roads are losers.

Central Florida. I use to think the same thing then realized one day that I haven't been in traffic to or from work in 10 years. I spend $7.50/week in tolls. ~$30/mo is worth my sanity and not wasting my life in my car.

Works for you... The wealthy dentist. That's all that matters right?

You are going to pay either way. At least this way I pay for what I use. Don't like toll roads, don't use them. BTW, I also pay for all of my employees toll usage too because it increases their quality of life.

Actually you pay twice this way.

so let's try to get this back on topic a little bit....

What happens as gas mileage continues to increase, miles driven annually continue to decrease, and electric cars become a bigger part of the transportation mix?

All three of those things are going to continue to happen (although electric cars are still a long way away from being 10+ % of the automobile fleet in this country). All three of those only hurt the highway funding since the gasoline tax is tacked onto a gallon of gasoline. How does it get fixed? More toll roads? Raise the federal gas tax? Add a tax for miles driven annually (or replace the gas tax with this)?

None of these are likely to be popular solutions, but eventually something will have to change because the current model doesn't work with the changing times and technologies.

(08-25-2015 09:45 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 09:26 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:37 AM)Niner National Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:24 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:20 AM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  You don't have "all" toll roads.

All the highways. Rarely any traffic.

Where do you live?

Many toll roads are losers.

They're ALL losers. It's a BS cash grab for political cronies.

Most of the ones in Texas do pretty well. They get built quickly and cheaply and provide new capacity that can't be built otherwise.

Of course they "do well". You didn't get what I meant by "losers". They're losers for the taxpayers.

(08-25-2015 10:09 AM)Niner National Wrote:  so let's try to get this back on topic a little bit....

What happens as gas mileage continues to increase, miles driven annually continue to decrease, and electric cars become a bigger part of the transportation mix?

All three of those things are going to continue to happen (although electric cars are still a long way away from being 10+ % of the automobile fleet in this country). All three of those only hurt the highway funding since the gasoline tax is tacked onto a gallon of gasoline. How does it get fixed? More toll roads? Raise the federal gas tax? Add a tax for miles driven annually (or replace the gas tax with this)?

None of these are likely to be popular solutions, but eventually something will have to change because the current model doesn't work with the changing times and technologies.

Part of the problem is urban sprawl. Sell the roads to the local toll agencies along with all public transportation(buses and trains).

(08-25-2015 10:09 AM)Niner National Wrote:  so let's try to get this back on topic a little bit....

What happens as gas mileage continues to increase, miles driven annually continue to decrease, and electric cars become a bigger part of the transportation mix?

All 3 have been pushed onto us by liberal puppets and their environmentalist masters. Yet another unintended consequence of government meddling. It amazes me that more people cant connnect the dots and see the real problems here.

(08-25-2015 10:18 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 10:09 AM)Niner National Wrote:  so let's try to get this back on topic a little bit....

What happens as gas mileage continues to increase, miles driven annually continue to decrease, and electric cars become a bigger part of the transportation mix?

All 3 have been pushed onto us by liberal puppets and their environmentalist masters. Yet another unintended consequence of government meddling. It amazes me that more people cant connnect the dots and see the real problems here.

No. The way the taxes were set up is the problem. I can't believe that anybody could rationalize that better fuel economy and shorter commutes are bad things. There might be a debate about electric cars.

(08-25-2015 09:49 AM)Niner National Wrote:  The tolls lanes they're planning in the Charlotte area will be owned by a Spanish company. They have a non-compete attached, so if the state tries to add additional free lanes in the future, they have to pay a substantial penalty. It isn't just isolated to adding lanes to the interstate though. If they expand adjacent roads that could be used instead, they also have to pay a penalty.

For 50 years. 50 ******* years.

I think these are pretty bad ideas. Of course, it worked for Indiana. The company that paid them billions went bankrupt and they got the billions AND the toll road back.

(08-25-2015 10:09 AM)Niner National Wrote:  so let's try to get this back on topic a little bit....

What happens as gas mileage continues to increase, miles driven annually continue to decrease, and electric cars become a bigger part of the transportation mix?

All three of those things are going to continue to happen (although electric cars are still a long way away from being 10+ % of the automobile fleet in this country). All three of those only hurt the highway funding since the gasoline tax is tacked onto a gallon of gasoline. How does it get fixed? More toll roads? Raise the federal gas tax? Add a tax for miles driven annually (or replace the gas tax with this)?

None of these are likely to be popular solutions, but eventually something will have to change because the current model doesn't work with the changing times and technologies.

A lot of politicians aren't too concerned, because they want more to be done locally. Some have proposed doing away with the federal gas tax entirely.

Georgia increased the state gas tax and put an annual fee on electric cars to compensate for them not paying gas tax.

(08-25-2015 10:11 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 09:45 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 09:26 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:37 AM)Niner National Wrote:  

(08-25-2015 08:24 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  All the highways. Rarely any traffic.

Where do you live?

Many toll roads are losers.

They're ALL losers. It's a BS cash grab for political cronies.

Most of the ones in Texas do pretty well. They get built quickly and cheaply and provide new capacity that can't be built otherwise.

Of course they "do well". You didn't get what I meant by "losers". They're losers for the taxpayers.

They're all winners for the taxpayers. You don't have to pay if you don't want to. And you benefit from the people who are paying. They are capacity that otherwise wouldn't have been built.

Unless they are subsidized, you aren't paying twice. Only the users are paying for it. And the ones that are subsidized get a minimal subsidy. The ones in Houston and Dallas are all self-supporting.

Now if you are talking about a conversion of a free road to a toll, that's a different issue. They did that with HOV lanes in Georgia. I don't like that idea. They got enough push-back, I don't think they will do that again.

Everyone is missing a significant point here. The federal gas tax does not only go to maintain "interstates." That money is spread out all kinds of different ways (beyond the previously mentioned bike paths, etc.). For instance, in our state, and others, even bridge rehabs/replacements on local (county, municipal, township) are funded through an 80/20 cost share with the Feds. Congestion mitigation funds flow downward. Those can be used on intersection improvements, traffic signal system upgrades and other work. There are other federal funding mechanisms as well.

I'm not advocating for the current system. In fact, it sucks. Why? Because it causes reliance on Uncle Fed for projects that should be entirely controlled and funded. However, to focus on interstates is to miss the rest of the argument and problem.

(08-25-2015 10:42 AM)bullet Wrote:  They're all winners for the taxpayers. You don't have to pay if you don't want to. And you benefit from the people who are paying. They are capacity that otherwise wouldn't have been built.

Unless they are subsidized, you aren't paying twice. Only the users are paying for it. And the ones that are subsidized get a minimal subsidy. The ones in Houston and Dallas are all self-supporting.

You are paying twice. You still pay gas tax, which doesn't go to the tollway, on top of your toll.