The BIG can get who they want when they want. The ACCs $50 million GOR and baby TV deal aren't holding anyone back. Kansas doesn't stand a chance in the age of conference TV networks and Kansas basketball doesn't matter to the movers and shakers.

(07-29-2015 09:29 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Football drives what ESPN and Fox will pay but it isn't nearly as dominant with a conference network. The big games rarely appear on a conference network in football but conference networks can end up with a lot of significant basketball games.

I think Kansas is exactly where they want to be long term in the B12.

Its somewhere with power status, has rivals like K-State and Iowa State, and where there could be some hope of a revitalized football program.

As some have mentioned on here if you are going to consider Kansas you are better off with UConn who has more market upside.

(07-29-2015 09:27 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 09:11 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 05:57 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 04:32 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The BIG is going to add East Coast schools next. Kansas is a low population state with no added value in TV revenue. Every conference knows the winning formula now and it lies in getting into as many high population states as possible.

Right now, the next two ACC schools that the BIG covets (UVa & UNC), do not appear to be willing to move. There are no other schools in the EAST that come close to the desirability of these two. That leaves expanding to the West. Mizzu was lost to the SEC and is probably untouchable at this point. KU and OU are the next two logical choices.

Probably not true. Virginia Tech is a top 15 engineering school, great academics, large alumni base and located in a key state for BTN expansion. All it lacks is AAU status, but it definitely has the research gravitas that the B1G is looking for. Look at its peer institutions on the VT website - VT academics at least thinks their peers are primarily B1G schools. In many ways, VT looks more like a B1G school than UVA, which thinks of itself as an eastern liberal arts college and Ivy League wanna-be.

UVa might be pretentious, but it's still a great research university. In the recent CWUR university ranking, for example, UVa is ahead of every Big Ten school except Michigan, Northwestern, Wisconsin, and Illinois.

UVA is clearly a great research school, but much of it relates to the medical field. Nothing wrong with that but B1G schools have a heavy focus on engineering, computers and natural sciences. Nevertheless, UVA is still AAU and very much of a B1G expansion candidate if they were willing.

My point is simply that VT can also be an expansion candidate and fits as well or better for some factors. I visited both schools when my kids were looking at colleges. VT is the larger school and has a larger alumni base. UVA has an east coast, liberal arts mindset and aspires to be, and is, a "public Ivy". VT looks and feels much more like the B1G schools we visited. VT aspires to be the best engineering school and sees the B1G engineering heavy weights, like Illinois, Purdue, Michigan and Wisconsin, as the kind of peer institutions it wants to be around. Except for AAU status, VT would be near the top of the B1G list.

(07-29-2015 10:20 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The BIG can get who they want when they want. The ACCs $50 million GOR and baby TV deal aren't holding anyone back. Kansas doesn't stand a chance in the age of conference TV networks and Kansas basketball doesn't matter to the movers and shakers.

No, the can only get whoever is willing to leave where they're at. Kansas and Oklahoma are. So far, nobody in the ACC is.

I think Kansas' value is overstated, but still considerable. Its ceiling rises the larger the footprint it can access. I think it, like Nebraska, needs a pipeline to Texas or to the left coast to retain potential. As is, Kansas won't be pulling squat out of PA, NJ, or MD.

The Kansas is irrelevant because of football comments miss a vital point.

Kansas is regularly mentioned in the "to the Big 10" rumors. OU is the one publicly saber rattling.

Let's hop into the Wayback Machine.

Big 10 is looking at expanding. Nebraska gets mentioned but remains mostly silent, while Missouri is publicly saber rattling.

If (and it is a huge if) there is serious talk of expansion going on, I think the evidence points to Kansas being closer to being selected than OU.

(07-29-2015 04:21 PM)Nebraskafan Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 03:58 PM)hawghiggs Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 03:24 PM)Nebraskafan Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 03:22 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 02:50 PM)BaylorFerg Wrote:  Kansas has a Tier 3 deal with ESPN. Much like the one OU has with Fox.

ESPN and FOX can trade after Oklahoma decides to go to the SEC.

Boren desires academics. He will take Oklahoma to the Pac-12 or B1G.

The SEC is a better academic conference than the Big 12.

Boren prefers to be associated with Stanford's, UW Washington, Michigan, and Wisconsin's of the world.

I may prefer to associate with people who own multi-million dollar mansions on the lake, but I rent a condo in the city.

Doesn't matter if I have a Ferrari in the garage.

(07-29-2015 06:27 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 06:24 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

4-Football is not great to warrent an addition to the Big 10. That is where the money is right now.

ahh... Rutgers n Maryland.

With the Big Markets and Network are of huge concern.

(07-29-2015 09:11 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 05:57 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 04:32 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The BIG is going to add East Coast schools next. Kansas is a low population state with no added value in TV revenue. Every conference knows the winning formula now and it lies in getting into as many high population states as possible.

Right now, the next two ACC schools that the BIG covets (UVa & UNC), do not appear to be willing to move. There are no other schools in the EAST that come close to the desirability of these two. That leaves expanding to the West. Mizzu was lost to the SEC and is probably untouchable at this point. KU and OU are the next two logical choices.

Probably not true. Virginia Tech is a top 15 engineering school, great academics, large alumni base and located in a key state for BTN expansion. All it lacks is AAU status, but it definitely has the research gravitas that the B1G is looking for. Look at its peer institutions on the VT website - VT academics at least thinks their peers are primarily B1G schools. In many ways, VT looks more like a B1G school than UVA, which thinks of itself as an eastern liberal arts college and Ivy League wanna-be.

Two other things VT lacks is; it's not the state flagship school and there is no obvious partner school to bring in with it. The BIG doesn't appear to be interested in extending an offer to Cuse or Pitt as #16. A VT/UConn combo does nothing to enhance the fortune or image of the conference more than a KU/OU combination.

(07-30-2015 08:58 AM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 09:11 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 05:57 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 04:32 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The BIG is going to add East Coast schools next. Kansas is a low population state with no added value in TV revenue. Every conference knows the winning formula now and it lies in getting into as many high population states as possible.

Right now, the next two ACC schools that the BIG covets (UVa & UNC), do not appear to be willing to move. There are no other schools in the EAST that come close to the desirability of these two. That leaves expanding to the West. Mizzu was lost to the SEC and is probably untouchable at this point. KU and OU are the next two logical choices.

Probably not true. Virginia Tech is a top 15 engineering school, great academics, large alumni base and located in a key state for BTN expansion. All it lacks is AAU status, but it definitely has the research gravitas that the B1G is looking for. Look at its peer institutions on the VT website - VT academics at least thinks their peers are primarily B1G schools. In many ways, VT looks more like a B1G school than UVA, which thinks of itself as an eastern liberal arts college and Ivy League wanna-be.

Two other things VT lacks is; it's not the state flagship school and there is no obvious partner school to bring in with it. The BIG doesn't appear to be interested in extending an offer to Cuse or Pitt as #16. A VT/UConn combo does nothing to enhance the fortune or image of the conference more than a KU/OU combination.

VT and UVA are both flagships in Virginia.

VT does more research than UVA, and is actually a top 50 research school: http://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/herd/2013/html/...ST_19.html

I'm actually shocked that they're not in the AAU already. Must be politics.


The partner would be NC State. They're basically a top 50 research school as well (same link), if you take out the life sciences only campuses. Again, "should be" AAU if not (likely) for politics.

It would get the B1G in Virginia and NC. It's the exact same combo that the SEC was rumored to be looking at in the past.

(07-30-2015 09:16 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(07-30-2015 08:58 AM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 09:11 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 05:57 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 04:32 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The BIG is going to add East Coast schools next. Kansas is a low population state with no added value in TV revenue. Every conference knows the winning formula now and it lies in getting into as many high population states as possible.

Right now, the next two ACC schools that the BIG covets (UVa & UNC), do not appear to be willing to move. There are no other schools in the EAST that come close to the desirability of these two. That leaves expanding to the West. Mizzu was lost to the SEC and is probably untouchable at this point. KU and OU are the next two logical choices.

Probably not true. Virginia Tech is a top 15 engineering school, great academics, large alumni base and located in a key state for BTN expansion. All it lacks is AAU status, but it definitely has the research gravitas that the B1G is looking for. Look at its peer institutions on the VT website - VT academics at least thinks their peers are primarily B1G schools. In many ways, VT looks more like a B1G school than UVA, which thinks of itself as an eastern liberal arts college and Ivy League wanna-be.

Two other things VT lacks is; it's not the state flagship school and there is no obvious partner school to bring in with it. The BIG doesn't appear to be interested in extending an offer to Cuse or Pitt as #16. A VT/UConn combo does nothing to enhance the fortune or image of the conference more than a KU/OU combination.

VT and UVA are both flagships in Virginia.

VT does more research than UVA, and is actually a top 50 research school: http://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/herd/2013/html/...ST_19.html

I'm actually shocked that they're not in the AAU already. Must be politics.


The partner would be NC State. They're basically a top 50 research school as well (same link), if you take out the life sciences only campuses. Again, "should be" AAU if not (likely) for politics.

It would get the B1G in Virginia and NC. It's the exact same combo that the SEC was rumored to be looking at in the past.

From what I understand, the AAU has very distinct metrics for consideration. I am sure that there is an element of politics associated with ANY organization or institution, but to claim that "politics" is the primary reason a school isn't in the AAU is really reaching, IMO, since you don't have any evidence to substantiate that claim.

The fact of the matter is that since signing its GOR, the ACC has been a very stable conference. No one is looking to leave. People can talk about future theoretical financial disparities between conferences, but those theoretical differences to the extent they come to exist, are transitory at best. Eventually, all the conference media deals expire and the conferences have the opportunity to renegotiate at then market levels.

Just my 2 cents.

(07-30-2015 06:10 AM)Rabbit_in_Red Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 10:20 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The BIG can get who they want when they want. The ACCs $50 million GOR and baby TV deal aren't holding anyone back. Kansas doesn't stand a chance in the age of conference TV networks and Kansas basketball doesn't matter to the movers and shakers.

No, the can only get whoever is willing to leave where they're at. Kansas and Oklahoma are. So far, nobody in the ACC is.

Signed, Maryland

(07-30-2015 10:08 AM)Eagle78 Wrote:  

(07-30-2015 09:16 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(07-30-2015 08:58 AM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 09:11 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 05:57 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  Right now, the next two ACC schools that the BIG covets (UVa & UNC), do not appear to be willing to move. There are no other schools in the EAST that come close to the desirability of these two. That leaves expanding to the West. Mizzu was lost to the SEC and is probably untouchable at this point. KU and OU are the next two logical choices.

Probably not true. Virginia Tech is a top 15 engineering school, great academics, large alumni base and located in a key state for BTN expansion. All it lacks is AAU status, but it definitely has the research gravitas that the B1G is looking for. Look at its peer institutions on the VT website - VT academics at least thinks their peers are primarily B1G schools. In many ways, VT looks more like a B1G school than UVA, which thinks of itself as an eastern liberal arts college and Ivy League wanna-be.

Two other things VT lacks is; it's not the state flagship school and there is no obvious partner school to bring in with it. The BIG doesn't appear to be interested in extending an offer to Cuse or Pitt as #16. A VT/UConn combo does nothing to enhance the fortune or image of the conference more than a KU/OU combination.

VT and UVA are both flagships in Virginia.

VT does more research than UVA, and is actually a top 50 research school: http://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/herd/2013/html/...ST_19.html

I'm actually shocked that they're not in the AAU already. Must be politics.


The partner would be NC State. They're basically a top 50 research school as well (same link), if you take out the life sciences only campuses. Again, "should be" AAU if not (likely) for politics.

It would get the B1G in Virginia and NC. It's the exact same combo that the SEC was rumored to be looking at in the past.

From what I understand, the AAU has very distinct metrics for consideration. I am sure that there is an element of politics associated with ANY organization or institution, but to claim that "politics" is the primary reason a school isn't in the AAU is really reaching, IMO, since you don't have any evidence to substantiate that claim.

The fact of the matter is that since signing its GOR, the ACC has been a very stable conference. No one is looking to leave. People can talk about future theoretical financial disparities between conferences, but those theoretical differences to the extent they come to exist, are transitory at best. Eventually, all the conference media deals expire and the conferences have the opportunity to renegotiate at then market levels.

Just my 2 cents.

There is no logical basis which can exclude VT from the AAU while including UVA.

UVA:

Total research (FY13) - $386 million (#59 overall)
Top three areas: 1) life sciences $245 million, 2) engineering $67.5 million, 3) physical sciences $23 million
Top three sources: 1) Federal $225.5 million, 2) Institutional $104 million, 3) Nonprofit orgs $27.5 million

VT:

Total research (FY13) - $496 million (#38 overall)
Top three areas: 1) Engineering $214.5 million, 2) Life sciences $206.5 million, 3) Math/Computer Science $23.5 million
Top three sources: 1) Federal $202 million, 2) Institutional $146 million, 3) State/local $116 million


(Institutional means the school spending its own money to fund research)

http://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/herd/2013/html/...ST_18.html
http://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/herd/2013/html/...ST_19.html

(07-29-2015 05:46 PM)Chappy Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 04:32 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The BIG is going to add East Coast schools next. Kansas is a low population state with no added value in TV revenue. Every conference knows the winning formula now and it lies in getting into as many high population states as possible.

Being in small markets becomes irrelevant when you're talking about a national brand like Kansas basketball.

I don't know about "irrelevant," but to back up your post who is the most sought after school in all of realignment? I will give you a hint: they sit in what is likely the smallest market of any school in the P5.

(07-30-2015 10:29 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  There is no logical basis which can exclude VT from the AAU while including UVA.

UVA has been a member for over 100 years. They were the first new member to join after the initial founding. Regardless of current research expenditures, comparing what a potential member has done to a current member doesn't mean they should be in. That is like saying Cincinnati has had a better football program than Wake Forest for the past 15 years, so it's politics that they are in the ACC and Cincinnati isn't. That is not a fair comparison.

I have never paid attention to their research numbers, nor compared them, so I do not know this to be the case. But I would guess if you looked at research over a number of years,. Virginia Tech probably would not be as high as Virginia on average. They have picked it up over the past few years in an effort to ramp up their research. If they are starting new projects, their spending will be higher in a given year. A school like Virginia who has been doing it for so long, may not need to spend as much in a given year to keep up their work. But even past that, just doing more than a current member does not immediately equate you as member eligible. In any organization. Doesn't mean it's "politics."

(07-30-2015 10:43 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 05:46 PM)Chappy Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 04:32 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The BIG is going to add East Coast schools next. Kansas is a low population state with no added value in TV revenue. Every conference knows the winning formula now and it lies in getting into as many high population states as possible.

Being in small markets becomes irrelevant when you're talking about a national brand like Kansas basketball.

I don't know about "irrelevant," but to back up your post who is the most sought after school in all of realignment? I will give you a hint: they sit in what is likely the smallest market of any school in the P5.

Notre Dame technically is in a small market but owns huge ratings in Chicago, NYC, and Indianapolis as well as performing solidly across the nation. Home market isn't where you are, it's where TVs turn on to watch you.

(07-30-2015 10:47 AM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(07-30-2015 10:43 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 05:46 PM)Chappy Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 04:32 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The BIG is going to add East Coast schools next. Kansas is a low population state with no added value in TV revenue. Every conference knows the winning formula now and it lies in getting into as many high population states as possible.

Being in small markets becomes irrelevant when you're talking about a national brand like Kansas basketball.

I don't know about "irrelevant," but to back up your post who is the most sought after school in all of realignment? I will give you a hint: they sit in what is likely the smallest market of any school in the P5.

Notre Dame technically is in a small market but owns huge ratings in Chicago, NYC, and Indianapolis as well as performing solidly across the nation. Home market isn't where you are, it's where TVs turn on to watch you.

There is no "technically," Notre Dame IS in a small market. But that is the point. Their market is small, but because of their popularity, tradition, and history, they draw fans elsewhere, both their own fans, and drawing of their opponents fans to see them play. I was not debating that ND doesn't have a large fanbase. It is that they have one in spite of being in a small market. Which was the point Chappy was making. Oklahoma is much the same way in football, albeit to a smaller degree. And Kansas the same way in basketball (again to a lesser degree).

(07-30-2015 11:13 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(07-30-2015 10:47 AM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(07-30-2015 10:43 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 05:46 PM)Chappy Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 04:32 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The BIG is going to add East Coast schools next. Kansas is a low population state with no added value in TV revenue. Every conference knows the winning formula now and it lies in getting into as many high population states as possible.

Being in small markets becomes irrelevant when you're talking about a national brand like Kansas basketball.

I don't know about "irrelevant," but to back up your post who is the most sought after school in all of realignment? I will give you a hint: they sit in what is likely the smallest market of any school in the P5.

Notre Dame technically is in a small market but owns huge ratings in Chicago, NYC, and Indianapolis as well as performing solidly across the nation. Home market isn't where you are, it's where TVs turn on to watch you.

But that is sort of the point. Their market is small, but because of their popularity, they draw fans elsewhere. I was not debating that ND doesn't have a large fanbase. It is that they are in a small market.

I was arguing against the common refrain from posters that you need to be located in market X to deliver it. It's simply not the case.

(07-30-2015 11:15 AM)1845 Bear Wrote:  I was arguing against the common refrain from posters that you need to be located in market X to deliver it. It's simply not the case.

Totally agree. Likewise being located in said market, does not mean you automatically deliver it.

(07-30-2015 11:13 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(07-30-2015 10:47 AM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(07-30-2015 10:43 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 05:46 PM)Chappy Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 04:32 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The BIG is going to add East Coast schools next. Kansas is a low population state with no added value in TV revenue. Every conference knows the winning formula now and it lies in getting into as many high population states as possible.

Being in small markets becomes irrelevant when you're talking about a national brand like Kansas basketball.

I don't know about "irrelevant," but to back up your post who is the most sought after school in all of realignment? I will give you a hint: they sit in what is likely the smallest market of any school in the P5.

Notre Dame technically is in a small market but owns huge ratings in Chicago, NYC, and Indianapolis as well as performing solidly across the nation. Home market isn't where you are, it's where TVs turn on to watch you.

There is no "technically," Notre Dame IS in a small market. But that is the point. Their market is small, but because of their popularity, tradition, and history, they draw fans elsewhere, both their own fans, and drawing of their opponents fans to see them play. I was not debating that ND doesn't have a large fanbase. It is that they have one in spite of being in a small market. Which was the point Chappy was making. Oklahoma is much the same way in football, albeit to a smaller degree. And Kansas the same way in basketball (again to a lesser degree).

Kansas basketball doesn't move the TV meter nationally the way that a mediocre football game does. The TV ratings for basketball games outside of the NCAA tournament are atrocious compared to football. Kansas basketball is 1/10 and Kansas football is 9/10 of the puzzle unfortunately for them. Notre Dame is a bad comparison for many reasons. They are a national football brand like Texas, Ohio St., or Florida. Their fanbase is Catholics which is universal throughout the country. There are very few teams that can sign their own checks and Kansas isn't one of them despite basketball prowess.

(07-30-2015 12:54 AM)CintiFan Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 09:27 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 09:11 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 05:57 PM)mikeinsec127 Wrote:  

(07-29-2015 04:32 PM)Titans3775 Wrote:  The BIG is going to add East Coast schools next. Kansas is a low population state with no added value in TV revenue. Every conference knows the winning formula now and it lies in getting into as many high population states as possible.

Right now, the next two ACC schools that the BIG covets (UVa & UNC), do not appear to be willing to move. There are no other schools in the EAST that come close to the desirability of these two. That leaves expanding to the West. Mizzu was lost to the SEC and is probably untouchable at this point. KU and OU are the next two logical choices.

Probably not true. Virginia Tech is a top 15 engineering school, great academics, large alumni base and located in a key state for BTN expansion. All it lacks is AAU status, but it definitely has the research gravitas that the B1G is looking for. Look at its peer institutions on the VT website - VT academics at least thinks their peers are primarily B1G schools. In many ways, VT looks more like a B1G school than UVA, which thinks of itself as an eastern liberal arts college and Ivy League wanna-be.

UVa might be pretentious, but it's still a great research university. In the recent CWUR university ranking, for example, UVa is ahead of every Big Ten school except Michigan, Northwestern, Wisconsin, and Illinois.

UVA is clearly a great research school, but much of it relates to the medical field. Nothing wrong with that but B1G schools have a heavy focus on engineering, computers and natural sciences. Nevertheless, UVA is still AAU and very much of a B1G expansion candidate if they were willing.

My point is simply that VT can also be an expansion candidate and fits as well or better for some factors. I visited both schools when my kids were looking at colleges. VT is the larger school and has a larger alumni base. UVA has an east coast, liberal arts mindset and aspires to be, and is, a "public Ivy". VT looks and feels much more like the B1G schools we visited. VT aspires to be the best engineering school and sees the B1G engineering heavy weights, like Illinois, Purdue, Michigan and Wisconsin, as the kind of peer institutions it wants to be around. Except for AAU status, VT would be near the top of the B1G list.

The research rankings of Big Ten schools are also driven by med schools. Medical research funding has an outsized influence right now. I think every Big Ten university except Purdue has a med school, and of the 26 U.S. universities on that CWUR list that are ahead of Purdue, all have a med school except MIT, Cal, Princeton, Caltech, and Texas (who will not be an exception for much longer b/c they are opening a UT med school in Austin next year).