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Why do you disapprove of Liberty
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #241
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
(06-11-2015 03:54 PM)Pounce FTW Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 03:51 PM)CrazyCajun Wrote:  Because your statements are a typical of those that love to throw out words like homophobic, racist and islamophobic; completely predictable and expected. No different then the Liberty University policy makers you dislike, just on opposite sides of the political and social spectrum.

You're right. I say "islamophobic" like 20 times a day.

Thought you were just trying to find a rhyme for islamophobic when you kept muttering it.
06-11-2015 04:38 PM
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Godzilla Offline
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Post: #242
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
Here is my quick take on freedom of expression/ freedom of religion (and freedom from religion) as opposed to discrimination,

Everybody has the right to say whatever they want unless it creates a public danger (I.e yelling fire in a movie theater) so for the most part religious and political speech should be completely protected even if you are the head of a private business or organization.

That being said, you can't get upset that someone responds to your freedom of speech with their own freedom of speech.

You say you are against gay marriage because of a selective interpretation of a 2000 year old book - protected
Someone else says you are an ignorant bigot for having that ideology - protected
People have a peaceful protest as a result of said bigoted statements - protected
People want to boycott your business because of your ideology- it's a free market. accept it or change your viewpoint.

CFA didn't discriminate against gays they just made a statement of their beliefs and that is totally fine with me, that is their right and even though I disagree I respect their right to say such things. I am a Popeye's guy so it didn't really affect me anyway.

Where it becomes wrong is using your ideology to make laws and polices for everyone.

A good rule of thumb is if you can't replace Homosexual with the word Black in your policy then you are messing up.

I.E

"We won't serve homosexuals because it is against our religious beliefs."
"We won't serve blacks because it is against our religious beliefs."

"I agree Homosexual marriage should be illegal based my religious beliefs."
"I agree Black marriage should be illegal based on my religious beliefs."

There is this little thing called separation of church and state that protects us from religion dictating public policy. I find it weird that the radical right (who usually are the only ones worried that the government is "ripping up the constitution") wan't to literally deny the first amendment to the constitution so that they can make discriminatory policy against gays based purely on their religion. Should there be laws making shellfish or pork illegal? How about forcing a former virgin girl to marry her rapist at the low low price of "50 sheckles of silver"? No? What about making tattoos illegal and making it okay to have slaves (unless they are Jewish slaves in which case they have to be released after 7 years)? There are things in the bible that are down right idiotic, just like the Koran, just like the Torah, this is why we have no official religion and are supposed to make laws completely independent of this ideology. The christian religion is not special, it's not un-flawed, and it's not even indicative of the beliefs of most Christians, so why make laws based on it?
06-11-2015 05:30 PM
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JoeJag Offline
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Post: #243
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
(06-11-2015 03:39 PM)pjc1979 Wrote:  I think if Liberty football got to the very exclusive top, top-tier of FCS, ala Montana, North Dakota State, Eastern Washington, or what Georgia Southern and App State use to be in FCS, many disdainers would suddenly have a different opinion of them joining the Sun Belt. Liberty football has a record of solid FCS football, but just needs to prove they can win and dominate a little more to swing public opinion. One private school isn't going to hurt the Sun Belt. There are far too many P5 examples out there to prove that it would work.

Please tell us that you are not comparing Liberty to schools such as Duke, Tulane, Stanford, Rice, Baylor, SMU, Notre Dame, TCU, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, BYU, Boston College, etc. Liberty is a great institution, I'm sure, but not a good fit for the Belt. If they are ever admitted, then I would wish South Alabama would attempt to join another conference ASAP.
06-11-2015 05:41 PM
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Pounce FTW Offline
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Post: #244
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
(06-11-2015 04:38 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 03:54 PM)Pounce FTW Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 03:51 PM)CrazyCajun Wrote:  Because your statements are a typical of those that love to throw out words like homophobic, racist and islamophobic; completely predictable and expected. No different then the Liberty University policy makers you dislike, just on opposite sides of the political and social spectrum.

You're right. I say "islamophobic" like 20 times a day.

Thought you were just trying to find a rhyme for islamophobic when you kept muttering it.

It's amazingly difficult. Once you go down that road, you're pretty much resigned to writing an entire song about phobias.
06-11-2015 05:47 PM
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AtlantaJag Offline
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Post: #245
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
(06-11-2015 05:30 PM)Godzilla Wrote:  Here is my quick take on freedom of expression/ freedom of religion (and freedom from religion) as opposed to discrimination,

Everybody has the right to say whatever they want unless it creates a public danger (I.e yelling fire in a movie theater) so for the most part religious and political speech should be completely protected even if you are the head of a private business or organization.

That being said, you can't get upset that someone responds to your freedom of speech with their own freedom of speech.

You say you are against gay marriage because of a selective interpretation of a 2000 year old book - protected
Someone else says you are an ignorant bigot for having that ideology - protected
People have a peaceful protest as a result of said bigoted statements - protected
People want to boycott your business because of your ideology- it's a free market. accept it or change your viewpoint.

CFA didn't discriminate against gays they just made a statement of their beliefs and that is totally fine with me, that is their right and even though I disagree I respect their right to say such things. I am a Popeye's guy so it didn't really affect me anyway.

Where it becomes wrong is using your ideology to make laws and polices for everyone.

A good rule of thumb is if you can't replace Homosexual with the word Black in your policy then you are messing up.

I.E

"We won't serve homosexuals because it is against our religious beliefs."
"We won't serve blacks because it is against our religious beliefs."

"I agree Homosexual marriage should be illegal based my religious beliefs."
"I agree Black marriage should be illegal based on my religious beliefs."

There is this little thing called separation of church and state that protects us from religion dictating public policy. I find it weird that the radical right (who usually are the only ones worried that the government is "ripping up the constitution") wan't to literally deny the first amendment to the constitution so that they can make discriminatory policy against gays based purely on their religion. Should there be laws making shellfish or pork illegal? How about forcing a former virgin girl to marry her rapist at the low low price of "50 sheckles of silver"? No? What about making tattoos illegal and making it okay to have slaves (unless they are Jewish slaves in which case they have to be released after 7 years)? There are things in the bible that are down right idiotic, just like the Koran, just like the Torah, this is why we have no official religion and are supposed to make laws completely independent of this ideology. The christian religion is not special, it's not un-flawed, and it's not even indicative of the beliefs of most Christians, so why make laws based on it?

Fantastic rant. Please don't try to resist them in the future.
I think the most frightening thought is a U.S.governed by a strict interpretation of that 2,000 year old book, something that I believe is a goal of some elements at Liberty and/or among its supporters.
06-11-2015 08:35 PM
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zeebart21 Offline
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Post: #246
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
Bottom line. The fine students at Liberty are banging in the dorm rooms on weekends, drinking (out of sight) and smoking lbs. of weed (not a fan of that foul smelling garbage, myself, but whatever).

Fggg it, let em in.

Z
06-12-2015 06:52 AM
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Jacque Offline
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Post: #247
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
(06-11-2015 05:30 PM)Godzilla Wrote:  Here is my quick take on freedom of expression/ freedom of religion (and freedom from religion) as opposed to discrimination,

Everybody has the right to say whatever they want unless it creates a public danger (I.e yelling fire in a movie theater) so for the most part religious and political speech should be completely protected even if you are the head of a private business or organization.

That being said, you can't get upset that someone responds to your freedom of speech with their own freedom of speech.

You say you are against gay marriage because of a selective interpretation of a 2000 year old book - protected
Someone else says you are an ignorant bigot for having that ideology - protected
People have a peaceful protest as a result of said bigoted statements - protected
People want to boycott your business because of your ideology- it's a free market. accept it or change your viewpoint.

CFA didn't discriminate against gays they just made a statement of their beliefs and that is totally fine with me, that is their right and even though I disagree I respect their right to say such things. I am a Popeye's guy so it didn't really affect me anyway.

Where it becomes wrong is using your ideology to make laws and polices for everyone.

A good rule of thumb is if you can't replace Homosexual with the word Black in your policy then you are messing up.

I.E

"We won't serve homosexuals because it is against our religious beliefs."
"We won't serve blacks because it is against our religious beliefs."

"I agree Homosexual marriage should be illegal based my religious beliefs."
"I agree Black marriage should be illegal based on my religious beliefs."

There is this little thing called separation of church and state that protects us from religion dictating public policy. I find it weird that the radical right (who usually are the only ones worried that the government is "ripping up the constitution") wan't to literally deny the first amendment to the constitution so that they can make discriminatory policy against gays based purely on their religion. Should there be laws making shellfish or pork illegal? How about forcing a former virgin girl to marry her rapist at the low low price of "50 sheckles of silver"? No? What about making tattoos illegal and making it okay to have slaves (unless they are Jewish slaves in which case they have to be released after 7 years)? There are things in the bible that are down right idiotic, just like the Koran, just like the Torah, this is why we have no official religion and are supposed to make laws completely independent of this ideology. The christian religion is not special, it's not un-flawed, and it's not even indicative of the beliefs of most Christians, so why make laws based on it?

The actual verbage of the Constitution is Church from State, meaning the State could not impose on religion. One small word makes a big difference, expecially when the wrong word is used more times than not.
06-12-2015 12:12 PM
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SumItUp Offline
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Post: #248
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
(06-12-2015 12:12 PM)Jacque Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 05:30 PM)Godzilla Wrote:  Here is my quick take on freedom of expression/ freedom of religion (and freedom from religion) as opposed to discrimination,

Everybody has the right to say whatever they want unless it creates a public danger (I.e yelling fire in a movie theater) so for the most part religious and political speech should be completely protected even if you are the head of a private business or organization.

That being said, you can't get upset that someone responds to your freedom of speech with their own freedom of speech.

You say you are against gay marriage because of a selective interpretation of a 2000 year old book - protected
Someone else says you are an ignorant bigot for having that ideology - protected
People have a peaceful protest as a result of said bigoted statements - protected
People want to boycott your business because of your ideology- it's a free market. accept it or change your viewpoint.

CFA didn't discriminate against gays they just made a statement of their beliefs and that is totally fine with me, that is their right and even though I disagree I respect their right to say such things. I am a Popeye's guy so it didn't really affect me anyway.

Where it becomes wrong is using your ideology to make laws and polices for everyone.

A good rule of thumb is if you can't replace Homosexual with the word Black in your policy then you are messing up.

I.E

"We won't serve homosexuals because it is against our religious beliefs."
"We won't serve blacks because it is against our religious beliefs."

"I agree Homosexual marriage should be illegal based my religious beliefs."
"I agree Black marriage should be illegal based on my religious beliefs."

There is this little thing called separation of church and state that protects us from religion dictating public policy. I find it weird that the radical right (who usually are the only ones worried that the government is "ripping up the constitution") wan't to literally deny the first amendment to the constitution so that they can make discriminatory policy against gays based purely on their religion. Should there be laws making shellfish or pork illegal? How about forcing a former virgin girl to marry her rapist at the low low price of "50 sheckles of silver"? No? What about making tattoos illegal and making it okay to have slaves (unless they are Jewish slaves in which case they have to be released after 7 years)? There are things in the bible that are down right idiotic, just like the Koran, just like the Torah, this is why we have no official religion and are supposed to make laws completely independent of this ideology. The christian religion is not special, it's not un-flawed, and it's not even indicative of the beliefs of most Christians, so why make laws based on it?

The actual verbage of the Constitution is Church from State, meaning the State could not impose on religion. One small word makes a big difference, expecially when the wrong word is used more times than not.

There is no actual verbiage of "Church and State" or "Church from State" in the US Constitution. That language came from a personal letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury (CT) Baptist Association.
06-12-2015 01:13 PM
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Godzilla Offline
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Post: #249
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

Making laws based solely a religion would be establishing a religion... Thomas Jefferson just had to dumb it down for those church people I guess.
06-12-2015 03:09 PM
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TH Spangler Offline
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Post: #250
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
(06-12-2015 03:09 PM)Godzilla Wrote:  Thomas Jefferson just had to dumb it down for those church people I guess.

The First Amendment does not call for the separation of church and state. The phrase itself ‘separation of church and state’ originated from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a persecuted minority group in 1802, well after the Constitution was written and ratified.

Amendment I: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Jefferson wrote later, "“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”

Government may not ‘establish’ a religion, nor may it ‘prohibit the free exercise thereof.

07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 06-12-2015 05:27 PM by TH Spangler.)
06-12-2015 03:50 PM
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Campaign4Liberty Offline
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Post: #251
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
(06-11-2015 01:51 PM)I AM an Eagle! Wrote:  
(06-11-2015 01:02 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  Again, regarding academics...our average freshmen ACT/SAT is right in the middle of the current SBC members...Liberty is fully accredited by the same agency that accredits the majority of SBC schools. In the words of Mrs. Clinton...if a school's Engineering Department is ABET accredited, What Difference Does It Make if creation is taught in the Biology Department??? If our Engineering Department is good enough for full ABET and we STILL teach creation...what does that say about your personal biases? Liberty's Honors College enrolls 700 students with an average SAT of 1370...We have a lot of bright students here.

Most freshman were not in the top 50% of their high school class -- 95% of all applicants are accepted

Not the same standards as the rest of the Sun Belt.


Old data. The average freshmen SAT is 1030, certainly not outstanding by any means, but also right in the middle of the Sunbelt. The acceptance rate is 21%, and demand is at an all time high.

http://www.liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?PI...MID=160420

AND...if the average LU freshmen is still above the cognitive ability of some other SBC schools...to quote Hillary again...what difference does it make regarding acceptance rates?? Why does it matter?
(This post was last modified: 06-12-2015 09:59 PM by Campaign4Liberty.)
06-12-2015 09:50 PM
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Pounce FTW Offline
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Post: #252
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
(06-12-2015 09:50 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  Old data. The average freshmen SAT is 1030, certainly not outstanding by any means, but also right in the middle of the Sunbelt. The acceptance rate is 21%, and demand is at an all time high.

http://www.liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?PI...MID=160420

AND...if the average LU freshmen is still above the cognitive ability of some other SBC schools...to quote Hillary again...what difference does it make regarding acceptance rates?? Why does it matter?

All very valid points. It's a holistic argument that we'll all find our own angles on. It's like when Georgia State and Georgia Southern fans start talking academics...Southern fans turn to SAT scores, State fans turn to GPA or research volume. No one's right.

We're all just going to have a threshold based on overall stats and perception, or on specific arguments. As I've mentioned, the young-earth focus is a sticking point for me, and I'm fine with letting that keep me, at the moment, from being on board with Liberty. If that goes away (either through institutional or personal changes), I'll move on to other issues and see how I feel about the school then. Overall, there are very few single angles that are going to convince any of us.

BTW, in case I haven't mentioned it again lately, I'd love to want Liberty in the SBC. When GSU played @LU in hoops a few years ago, I got to enjoy a great broadcast with extremely hospitable announcers. I understand your fans are very passionate and willing to part with dollars for the sake of the program. It may just take a few changes and the time to prove them for me and others like me.
06-13-2015 01:39 PM
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Campaign4Liberty Offline
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Post: #253
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
(06-13-2015 01:39 PM)Pounce FTW Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 09:50 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  Old data. The average freshmen SAT is 1030, certainly not outstanding by any means, but also right in the middle of the Sunbelt. The acceptance rate is 21%, and demand is at an all time high.

http://www.liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?PI...MID=160420

AND...if the average LU freshmen is still above the cognitive ability of some other SBC schools...to quote Hillary again...what difference does it make regarding acceptance rates?? Why does it matter?

All very valid points. It's a holistic argument that we'll all find our own angles on. It's like when Georgia State and Georgia Southern fans start talking academics...Southern fans turn to SAT scores, State fans turn to GPA or research volume. No one's right.

We're all just going to have a threshold based on overall stats and perception, or on specific arguments. As I've mentioned, the young-earth focus is a sticking point for me, and I'm fine with letting that keep me, at the moment, from being on board with Liberty. If that goes away (either through institutional or personal changes), I'll move on to other issues and see how I feel about the school then. Overall, there are very few single angles that are going to convince any of us.

BTW, in case I haven't mentioned it again lately, I'd love to want Liberty in the SBC. When GSU played @LU in hoops a few years ago, I got to enjoy a great broadcast with extremely hospitable announcers. I understand your fans are very passionate and willing to part with dollars for the sake of the program. It may just take a few changes and the time to prove them for me and others like me.


OK...but again...if ABET has fully accredited our engineering programs as one small example...and a young earth theory as part of "Gen Ed Bible" classes is part of the deal...why should that affect your decision to be "on board" with Liberty academically? You're in a sense saying that while Liberty is good enough for ABET accreditation...you somehow have a "higher standard" of "academic excellence" than a national certifying body?? Is that what I am hearing?

Tell me...how exactly does young earth theory "lesson" (spelled incorrectly for a play on words...ha!) the ability of an engineer to produce or a nurse to care? How does young or old earth affect the ability of a business graduate to fulfill the job description at his/her company? The only place I can see this having any real world impact is in higher education and the absolute pinnacle of scientific research where a belief in creation is an automatic disqualifier for employment.

Even in mainstream science I do not see the being an issue...Tell me, if you are a "straight A" Molecular Biology Liberty grad working on a new drug at GSK...does your personal belief in a 10,000 year old earth or 4.6 billion year old earth have any bearing whatsoever on your day to day task list and ability to get your work done?

Put another way...suppose you're a business owner in any number of multiple industries outside of the two aforementioned fields...is a job candidate's personal beliefs regarding the age of the earth going to have any impact whatsoever on their job performance? Suppose you hired a Duke graduate whom you assumed believed in a 4.6 billion year old earth (if that was even an issue or question during the hiring process...ha!)...only to learn after 3 years of solid work in your company that she was in fact an evangelic Christian and believed in the creation story? What is your response?

In my business...I am much more interested in what potential hires are putting on Twitter than their beliefs on the age of the earth. Have you followed the story in Canada about the two employees canned for vulgar remarks aimed a news reporter at a soccer game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKkAL1AEam8

These guys were in 100K jobs...fired because they are idiots. I am sure they were on point with the scientific age of the earth. Perhaps their company should have been more concerned with their character than their scientific talking points? I have heard multiple people here talk about how they will throw out a Liberty application as soon as they see it...OK...but you're more often than now throwing out a person of high character with a strong work ethic who will make a great employee...the age of the earth has no impact whatsoever on their ability in your company.
06-13-2015 02:29 PM
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Pounce FTW Offline
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Post: #254
RE: Why do you disapprove of Liberty
(06-13-2015 02:29 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  OK...but again...if ABET has fully accredited our engineering programs as one small example...and a young earth theory as part of "Gen Ed Bible" classes is part of the deal...why should that affect your decision to be "on board" with Liberty academically? You're in a sense saying that while Liberty is good enough for ABET accreditation...you somehow have a "higher standard" of "academic excellence" than a national certifying body?? Is that what I am hearing?

Tell me...how exactly does young earth theory "lesson" (spelled incorrectly for a play on words...ha!) the ability of an engineer to produce or a nurse to care? How does young or old earth affect the ability of a business graduate to fulfill the job description at his/her company? The only place I can see this having any real world impact is in higher education and the absolute pinnacle of scientific research where a belief in creation is an automatic disqualifier for employment.

Even in mainstream science I do not see the being an issue...Tell me, if you are a "straight A" Molecular Biology Liberty grad working on a new drug at GSK...does your personal belief in a 10,000 year old earth or 4.6 billion year old earth have any bearing whatsoever on your day to day task list and ability to get your work done?

Put another way...suppose you're a business owner in any number of multiple industries outside of the two aforementioned fields...is a job candidate's personal beliefs regarding the age of the earth going to have any impact whatsoever on their job performance? Suppose you hired a Duke graduate whom you assumed believed in a 4.6 billion year old earth (if that was even an issue or question during the hiring process...ha!)...only to learn after 3 years of solid work in your company that she was in fact an evangelic Christian and believed in the creation story? What is your response?

In my business...I am much more interested in what potential hires are putting on Twitter than their beliefs on the age of the earth. Have you followed the story in Canada about the two employees canned for vulgar remarks aimed a news reporter at a soccer game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKkAL1AEam8

These guys were in 100K jobs...fired because they are idiots. I am sure they were on point with the scientific age of the earth. Perhaps their company should have been more concerned with their character than their scientific talking points? I have heard multiple people here talk about how they will throw out a Liberty application as soon as they see it...OK...but you're more often than now throwing out a person of high character with a strong work ethic who will make a great employee...the age of the earth has no impact whatsoever on their ability in your company.

If you want to call it having a "higher standard" than an accrediting agency, then sure, that's what I have. I'm not going to assume that every program that gets by an agency is admirable.

I think I've been pretty up-front in saying that my issue with Liberty's creationism bent is pretty focused and based on personal concerns. Nowhere do I say that it makes me throw issues of character out the window. Nor do I believe that a Liberty-educated engineer is inherently less qualified to design a retention pond. That's not my issue with an institution of higher education abandoning a foundational element of the field I study for the sake of advancing an agenda. I would prefer that a religious university highlight the compatibility of faith and science, not perpetuate a conflict that serves to do little more than prevent legitimate discourse and force some Christians to ignore the reason given to them by their creator.

Not everyone is going to have the same concern, but it's a big deal to me.
06-14-2015 12:48 PM
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