(05-25-2015 09:51 PM)Deez Nuts Wrote:  almost 1000 seats in the club right? It's been sold out for the last 4 years right? Online reseating starts on June 1. We will all get to see exactly how empty or how full our stadium is based on Duke Club membership.

Don't bother trying to introduce actual data to this discussion.

Either a) club seating sales are down and they were right all along or b) club seating sells out again, but that's just because of the poor saps who are still holding out for FBS and obviously sales and attendance will go to hell in a hand basket next year.

Whatever the facts are, it won't stop people from perpetuating garbage baseless claims. How many freaking times has it been said on this board that attendance is down? It's not even worth debunking at this point.

(05-25-2015 10:31 PM)bjk3047 Wrote:  

(05-25-2015 09:51 PM)Deez Nuts Wrote:  almost 1000 seats in the club right? It's been sold out for the last 4 years right? Online reseating starts on June 1. We will all get to see exactly how empty or how full our stadium is based on Duke Club membership.

Don't bother trying to introduce actual data to this discussion.

Either a) club seating sales are down and they were right all along or b) club seating sells out again, but that's just because of the poor saps who are still holding out for FBS and obviously sales and attendance will go to hell in a hand basket next year.

Whatever the facts are, it won't stop people from perpetuating garbage baseless claims. How many freaking times has it been said on this board that attendance is down? It's not even worth debunking at this point.

Actual data shows attendance has fallen every years since 2011. That's fact.

You have some of the longest and biggest JMU fans on here saying that they're not all that interested anymore. These aren't the chicken little fans. That's a fact.

Maybe they're new fans out there who can replace ticket sales/donations represented by that group. We'll know shortly, but I wouldn't be too optimistic.

(05-26-2015 06:53 AM)JMU2004 Wrote:  

(05-25-2015 10:31 PM)bjk3047 Wrote:  

(05-25-2015 09:51 PM)Deez Nuts Wrote:  almost 1000 seats in the club right? It's been sold out for the last 4 years right? Online reseating starts on June 1. We will all get to see exactly how empty or how full our stadium is based on Duke Club membership.

Don't bother trying to introduce actual data to this discussion.

Either a) club seating sales are down and they were right all along or b) club seating sells out again, but that's just because of the poor saps who are still holding out for FBS and obviously sales and attendance will go to hell in a hand basket next year.

Whatever the facts are, it won't stop people from perpetuating garbage baseless claims. How many freaking times has it been said on this board that attendance is down? It's not even worth debunking at this point.

Actual data shows attendance has fallen every years since 2011. That's fact.

You have some of the longest and biggest JMU fans on here saying that they're not all that interested anymore. These aren't the chicken little fans. That's a fact.

Maybe they're new fans out there who can replace ticket sales/donations represented by that group. We'll know shortly, but I wouldn't be too optimistic.

2011: 25,002
2012: 22,783
2013: 21,011
2014: 19,816

(05-25-2015 02:58 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  

(05-25-2015 02:31 PM)HotHamandCheese84 Wrote:  I don't think there has been a change in the leadership's view toward FBS but I think there has been more of an effort to be more public with information. We do need to fill the stadium for home games and we need to raise more money so we are ready when we are invited to a compatible FBS conference.

HH&C - You know I value your opinion on here probably more than anyone else. However, is there not some what of a ceiling for how many more people we can get in that stadium and how much more money we can raise at our level? We are FCS football and have a mid-major basketball program that has struggled for the better part of 20 years. Our attendance numbers, and I would assume our fundraising, already equal or surpass many others already playing FBS and have much stronger basketball programs.

Again, I fully respect your opinion but I think that the message of "we need more support to be prepared for an FBS invite" might be the wrong one. Our fan base has been more than supportive over the years through their attendance and their duke club donations than others in our position.

If our fan base hasn't proven itself to the administration by this point, I fear it never will.

Unfortunately I don't know if our fan base has proven itself. The Duke Club had a stated goal in 2014 to raise $2.2M unrestricted donations and have 3,500 donors. They ended with only $1.99M in unrestricted gifts but 4,006 donors. Donations in 2014 were up 4.71% which is pretty much average for the normal years**.

It is tough to say how they are interpreting their results but in one year they went from 2,940 members to 4,006 which I believe is a very big statement. They missed their goal but as an outsider I don't see how they set a reasonable goal and they still grew at a historical pace. I'm not sure why they thought $2.2M (15% increase) was a reasonable goal since we had only grown that much once is the last 7 years.

**Normal years - Increase in unrestricted gifts:
2008 +7.42%
2009 (following 12-2 season) +14.71%
2010 +3.82%
2011 (after beating VT) +26.66%
2012 +1.43%
2013 +4.59%
2014 +4.71%.

"Free beer tomorrow" JMU fans!! Same song different verse from JMU Admin.

I'd respect us more if we would drop to D3 in the ODAC.

(05-26-2015 07:16 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(05-25-2015 02:58 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  

(05-25-2015 02:31 PM)HotHamandCheese84 Wrote:  I don't think there has been a change in the leadership's view toward FBS but I think there has been more of an effort to be more public with information. We do need to fill the stadium for home games and we need to raise more money so we are ready when we are invited to a compatible FBS conference.

HH&C - You know I value your opinion on here probably more than anyone else. However, is there not some what of a ceiling for how many more people we can get in that stadium and how much more money we can raise at our level? We are FCS football and have a mid-major basketball program that has struggled for the better part of 20 years. Our attendance numbers, and I would assume our fundraising, already equal or surpass many others already playing FBS and have much stronger basketball programs.

Again, I fully respect your opinion but I think that the message of "we need more support to be prepared for an FBS invite" might be the wrong one. Our fan base has been more than supportive over the years through their attendance and their duke club donations than others in our position.

If our fan base hasn't proven itself to the administration by this point, I fear it never will.

Unfortunately I don't know if our fan base has proven itself. The Duke Club had a stated goal in 2014 to raise $2.2M unrestricted donations and have 3,500 donors. They ended with only $1.99M in unrestricted gifts but 4,006 donors. Donations in 2014 were up 4.71% which is pretty much average for the normal years**.

It is tough to say how they are interpreting their results but in one year they went from 2,940 members to 4,006 which I believe is a very big statement. They missed their goal but as an outsider I don't see how they set a reasonable goal and they still grew at a historical pace. I'm not sure why they thought $2.2M (15% increase) was a reasonable goal since we had only grown that much once is the last 7 years.

**Normal years - Increase in unrestricted gifts:
2008 +7.42%
2009 (following 12-2 season) +14.71%
2010 +3.82%
2011 (after beating VT) +26.66%
2012 +1.43%
2013 +4.59%
2014 +4.71%.

Where did you find those numbers? I've always been curious Duke Club stats but have no idea where to look.

Also, how do those numbers compare to other FCS schools? My thoughts are we are well ahead of most schools in our situation.

And finally, how do those numbers compare to MAC/Sun Belt schools? Again, I'm going to guess we are equal to if not greater than a lot of those schools.

If JMU still needs more proof, and we are already at the top of most schools in our situation, then what else can we do? You can't have FBS expectations of our fans/donors while feeding us an FCS product. Got to compare apples to apples.

(05-26-2015 07:20 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  "Free beer tomorrow" JMU fans!! Same song different verse from JMU Admin.

I'd respect us more if we would drop to D3 in the ODAC.

Really ...... lol

(05-26-2015 07:24 AM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 07:16 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(05-25-2015 02:58 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  

(05-25-2015 02:31 PM)HotHamandCheese84 Wrote:  I don't think there has been a change in the leadership's view toward FBS but I think there has been more of an effort to be more public with information. We do need to fill the stadium for home games and we need to raise more money so we are ready when we are invited to a compatible FBS conference.

HH&C - You know I value your opinion on here probably more than anyone else. However, is there not some what of a ceiling for how many more people we can get in that stadium and how much more money we can raise at our level? We are FCS football and have a mid-major basketball program that has struggled for the better part of 20 years. Our attendance numbers, and I would assume our fundraising, already equal or surpass many others already playing FBS and have much stronger basketball programs.

Again, I fully respect your opinion but I think that the message of "we need more support to be prepared for an FBS invite" might be the wrong one. Our fan base has been more than supportive over the years through their attendance and their duke club donations than others in our position.

If our fan base hasn't proven itself to the administration by this point, I fear it never will.

Unfortunately I don't know if our fan base has proven itself. The Duke Club had a stated goal in 2014 to raise $2.2M unrestricted donations and have 3,500 donors. They ended with only $1.99M in unrestricted gifts but 4,006 donors. Donations in 2014 were up 4.71% which is pretty much average for the normal years**.

It is tough to say how they are interpreting their results but in one year they went from 2,940 members to 4,006 which I believe is a very big statement. They missed their goal but as an outsider I don't see how they set a reasonable goal and they still grew at a historical pace. I'm not sure why they thought $2.2M (15% increase) was a reasonable goal since we had only grown that much once is the last 7 years.

**Normal years - Increase in unrestricted gifts:
2008 +7.42%
2009 (following 12-2 season) +14.71%
2010 +3.82%
2011 (after beating VT) +26.66%
2012 +1.43%
2013 +4.59%
2014 +4.71%.

Where did you find those numbers? I've always been curious Duke Club stats but have no idea where to look.

Also, how do those numbers compare to other FCS schools? My thoughts are we are well ahead of most schools in our situation.

And finally, how do those numbers compare to MAC/Sun Belt schools? Again, I'm going to guess we are equal to if not greater than a lot of those schools.

If JMU still needs more proof, and we are already at the top of most schools in our situation, then what else can we do? You can't have FBS expectations of our fans/donors while feeding us an FCS product. Got to compare apples to apples.

Well I want to know where JMU officially stated "if the fans / donors meet these metrics we'll go FBS". To my knowledge there has never been any kind of number for attendance, donors, or donations that's been a trigger for a move. Is anyone now hearing that we need to "prove" we're ready as a fanbase?

This is why I posed my followup question to HHC, is it just a matter of the right invite and the admin will accept right away, or are there criteria in place the fans / donors need to meet before an invite is accepted? If the admin truly is interested in a move the dumbest thing they could do is wait until AFTER an invite to announce these dependencies. Please tell me that's not the case.

(05-26-2015 07:06 AM)2Buck Wrote:  2011: 25,002
2012: 22,783
2013: 21,011
2014: 19,816

You're including a playoff game during Thanksgiving weekend. Talk about using numbers to fit your narrative. Remove that, and OH what do you know, were back up to 21170.

(05-26-2015 07:20 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  "Free beer tomorrow" JMU fans!! Same song different verse from JMU Admin.

I'd respect us more if we would drop to D3 in the ODAC.

Imagine how much $$$$ we could realocate if we did that! Our athletic budget would shrink considerably and we could pour it into faculty raises or something (I am sure it doesn't work that way, but it's the thought, right?). We would have titillating rivalries across the commonwealth- Hampden Sydney, Bridgewater, Macon., or we could go big time D3 and join CNU in the New Jersey Athletic Conference.

(05-26-2015 08:05 AM)bjk3047 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 07:06 AM)2Buck Wrote:  2011: 25,002
2012: 22,783
2013: 21,011
2014: 19,816

You're including a playoff game during Thanksgiving weekend. Talk about using numbers to fit your narrative. Remove that, and OH what do you know, were back up to 21170.

I provided the numbers from NCAA. They didn't provide game by game. "Narrative"? Quit being so paranoid.

I apologize for my tone towards your post. I lumped you in with other Chicken Little folks, and that was careless of me.

My point still stands in terms of looking at the numbers with a little more context.

People are arguing about percentages of increases in giving. My point is I believe we are at a crossroad. We are getting priced out of value. I have retreated from club seats, to chairbacks to now bleacher seats with a back. I believe to continue to grow it will require a lot of new people becoming interested. I know the numbers don't back me up, but I feel it. I personally know a lot of fans who are going in reverse like me. I've gone from Godwin to Plot and that went up $75 this year. Prices continue to rise, but the product doesn't. When they opened the new stadium it doubled for club seats. This year parking was a 15% increase. Can I afford it? Yes. But, I am becoming disgruntled and don't want to. That is my point. A lot of donators are becoming jaded. So, the Duke Club needs to bring in new blood which they appear to be doing a good job of.

(05-26-2015 08:05 AM)bjk3047 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 07:06 AM)2Buck Wrote:  2011: 25,002
2012: 22,783
2013: 21,011
2014: 19,816

You're including a playoff game during Thanksgiving weekend. Talk about using numbers to fit your narrative. Remove that, and OH what do you know, were back up to 21170.

I was at every game at home last year, and have been at 95% since 2011. I can look around the stadium and tell you, unequivocally, that attendance has decreased markedly in those 4 years.

(05-26-2015 08:59 AM)JMU2004 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 08:05 AM)bjk3047 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 07:06 AM)2Buck Wrote:  2011: 25,002
2012: 22,783
2013: 21,011
2014: 19,816

You're including a playoff game during Thanksgiving weekend. Talk about using numbers to fit your narrative. Remove that, and OH what do you know, were back up to 21170.

I was at every game at home last year, and have been at 95% since 2011. I can look around the stadium and tell you, unequivocally, that attendance has decreased markedly in those 4 years.

I agree, definitely has gone down, winning will help some

(05-26-2015 07:24 AM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 07:16 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(05-25-2015 02:58 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  

(05-25-2015 02:31 PM)HotHamandCheese84 Wrote:  ................

.................
If our fan base hasn't proven itself to the administration by this point, I fear it never will.

Unfortunately I don't know if our fan base has proven itself. The Duke Club had a stated goal in 2014 to raise $2.2M unrestricted donations and have 3,500 donors. They ended with only $1.99M in unrestricted gifts but 4,006 donors. Donations in 2014 were up 4.71% which is pretty much average for the normal years**.

It is tough to say how they are interpreting their results but in one year they went from 2,940 members to 4,006 which I believe is a very big statement. They missed their goal but as an outsider I don't see how they set a reasonable goal and they still grew at a historical pace. I'm not sure why they thought $2.2M (15% increase) was a reasonable goal since we had only grown that much once is the last 7 years.

**Normal years - Increase in unrestricted gifts:
2008 +7.42%
2009 (following 12-2 season) +14.71%
2010 +3.82%
2011 (after beating VT) +26.66%
2012 +1.43%
2013 +4.59%
2014 +4.71%.

Where did you find those numbers? I've always been curious Duke Club stats but have no idea where to look.

Also, how do those numbers compare to other FCS schools? My thoughts are we are well ahead of most schools in our situation.

And finally, how do those numbers compare to MAC/Sun Belt schools? Again, I'm going to guess we are equal to if not greater than a lot of those schools.

If JMU still needs more proof, and we are already at the top of most schools in our situation, then what else can we do? You can't have FBS expectations of our fans/donors while feeding us an FCS product. Got to compare apples to apples.

Sorry I meant to include the sources in first post. I received the 2015 brochure last week in the mail but just found it online as well.
http://issuu.com/jmusports.com/docs/2014...hure-finalhttp://issuu.com/jmusports.com/docs/2015...ipbrochure

I don't have a lot of time to google but I'm sure you can find out online. Within 2 minutes I found some App State and ODU information, NDSU wasn't immediately clear so I gave up.
App State:"During the 2012-13 fiscal year, the Yosef Club raised a record $4.3 million in efforts to meet scholarship needs for student-athletes."
ODU: "2015 ANNUAL FUND TOTALS, AS OF MONDAY, MAY 04, 2015 - Campaign Goal: $4,500,000 - 2015 Total Raised To Date: $2,006,416 - Number of Donors: 1,903"

(05-26-2015 08:38 AM)BSKB 24 Wrote:  People are arguing about percentages of increases in giving. My point is I believe we are at a crossroad. We are getting priced out of value. I have retreated from club seats, to chairbacks to now bleacher seats with a back. I believe to continue to grow it will require a lot of new people becoming interested. I know the numbers don't back me up, but I feel it. I personally know a lot of fans who are going in reverse like me. I've gone from Godwin to Plot and that went up $75 this year. Prices continue to rise, but the product doesn't. When they opened the new stadium it doubled for club seats. This year parking was a 15% increase. Can I afford it? Yes. But, I am becoming disgruntled and don't want to. That is my point. A lot of donators are becoming jaded. So, the Duke Club needs to bring in new blood which they appear to be doing a good job of.

I hear you. I didn't renew my 2 seats for this coming year but I will go to 2 games. I was unhappy about the 15% increases for parking and 15% increase in price per seat but would have sucked it up if I thought FBS was a near future. I wasn't excited to make the trip from DC for 4 of the 6 home games. My stance was I could fork over the $30(?) per game seat cost and transition the other $500ish savings to another part of JMU.

1,066 new donors in 1 year says a lot of new people are becoming interested. I agree many established donors are going in reverse (I even put it in park) which is supported by the fact the number of donors is increasing 33+% with donation amounts only increasing 4%. All I was attempting to show was that despite the "everyone is losing interested" theory, as a whole, the fan base is sending a different message.

(05-26-2015 09:19 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 07:24 AM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 07:16 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(05-25-2015 02:58 PM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  

(05-25-2015 02:31 PM)HotHamandCheese84 Wrote:  ................

.................
If our fan base hasn't proven itself to the administration by this point, I fear it never will.

Unfortunately I don't know if our fan base has proven itself. The Duke Club had a stated goal in 2014 to raise $2.2M unrestricted donations and have 3,500 donors. They ended with only $1.99M in unrestricted gifts but 4,006 donors. Donations in 2014 were up 4.71% which is pretty much average for the normal years**.

It is tough to say how they are interpreting their results but in one year they went from 2,940 members to 4,006 which I believe is a very big statement. They missed their goal but as an outsider I don't see how they set a reasonable goal and they still grew at a historical pace. I'm not sure why they thought $2.2M (15% increase) was a reasonable goal since we had only grown that much once is the last 7 years.

**Normal years - Increase in unrestricted gifts:
2008 +7.42%
2009 (following 12-2 season) +14.71%
2010 +3.82%
2011 (after beating VT) +26.66%
2012 +1.43%
2013 +4.59%
2014 +4.71%.

Where did you find those numbers? I've always been curious Duke Club stats but have no idea where to look.

Also, how do those numbers compare to other FCS schools? My thoughts are we are well ahead of most schools in our situation.

And finally, how do those numbers compare to MAC/Sun Belt schools? Again, I'm going to guess we are equal to if not greater than a lot of those schools.

If JMU still needs more proof, and we are already at the top of most schools in our situation, then what else can we do? You can't have FBS expectations of our fans/donors while feeding us an FCS product. Got to compare apples to apples.

Sorry I meant to include the sources in first post. I received the 2015 brochure last week in the mail but just found it online as well.
http://issuu.com/jmusports.com/docs/2014...hure-finalhttp://issuu.com/jmusports.com/docs/2015...ipbrochure

I don't have a lot of time to google but I'm sure you can find out online. Within 2 minutes I found some App State and ODU information, NDSU wasn't immediately clear so I gave up.
App State:"During the 2012-13 fiscal year, the Yosef Club raised a record $4.3 million in efforts to meet scholarship needs for student-athletes."
ODU: "2015 ANNUAL FUND TOTALS, AS OF MONDAY, MAY 04, 2015 - Campaign Goal: $4,500,000 - 2015 Total Raised To Date: $2,006,416 - Number of Donors: 1,903"

Thanks for sending that information! I would have never found that.

I want to know how we went from 2,940 donors to 4,006 in one year yet didn't even see $100,000 in increase. That's a 5% dollar increase but a 36% member increase. I just can't imagine those numbers making sense unless they are counting Student Duke Club now or something but I thought they had like 2,000 members (or at least they used to). Sorry to be so annoyingly detailed but a lot of my job is analyzing data so its just the way my mind thinks...

Also, ODU's brochure appears to show 3,808 donors - http://www.olddominionaf.com/docs/2015_O...ebsite.pdf

(05-26-2015 08:59 AM)JMU2004 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 08:05 AM)bjk3047 Wrote:  

(05-26-2015 07:06 AM)2Buck Wrote:  2011: 25,002
2012: 22,783
2013: 21,011
2014: 19,816

You're including a playoff game during Thanksgiving weekend. Talk about using numbers to fit your narrative. Remove that, and OH what do you know, were back up to 21170.

I was at every game at home last year, and have been at 95% since 2011. I can look around the stadium and tell you, unequivocally, that attendance has decreased markedly in those 4 years.

I'm always baffled at our attendence numbers. I guess 19,816 per game was the paid attendance, but the eye test says that maybe 8,000 on average are in their seats in the fourth quarter, even in close games. Hell, the student section turns into a ghost town around the middle of the third. You can say that "the numbers are the numbers", but that is disingenous.

(05-26-2015 09:34 AM)DolleyMadison Wrote:  Thanks for sending that information! I would have never found that.

I want to know how we went from 2,940 donors to 4,006 in one year yet didn't even see $100,000 in increase. That's a 5% dollar increase but a 36% member increase. I just can't imagine those numbers making sense unless they are counting Student Duke Club now or something but I thought they had like 2,000 members (or at least they used to). Sorry to be so annoyingly detailed but a lot of my job is analyzing data so its just the way my mind thinks...

Also, ODU's brochure appears to show 3,808 donors - http://www.olddominionaf.com/docs/2015_O...ebsite.pdf

The numbers seemed out of wack to me as well for a number of issues.
(1) I thought the SDC might have been included because I believe they recently rolled the SDC into the "Duke Club" but I would have expected a larger jump if that was counted.
(2) Assuming all the new donors only donated the minimum $25 then that accounts for about $25K of the $90K increase in donations. That means that existing donors increased their donations at a MAXIMUM of 3.4% ($65K increase over the $1.906M 2013 commitment). Remember there was around a 15% increase in all parking lot requirements so I have to believe existing donors are scaling back.
(3) Additionally, in 2013, 2,960 donors gave an average of $648 for a total of $1.906M. In 2014, 4,006 donors gave an average of $498 for $1.996M.

Given (2) & (3) above, I have to think that a handful of donors in the $2,500+ a year range have left or drastically scaled back. I just don't believe that a bunch of $1k a year donors can cause that $150 drop in average giving and caused the minimal (3.4%) increase donations.

Don't the game programs list donors? I guess that would ultimately prove if people are scaling back interest.