(02-12-2015 12:23 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 12:08 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  I want to be a top mid-major program.

We all want that.

Here are a couple questions that may ignite some fiery responses:

Do you think it is possible for us to grow to a top mid-major program while we have football?

Would you drop football to be the next Wichita State?

Blasphemy!!! No bread pudding for you!!!

There's no reason why W&M can't continue to improve all 3 of the major programs (Football, Basketball, Baseball) without hurting any of the others.

(02-12-2015 12:59 PM)nj alum Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 12:23 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 12:08 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  I want to be a top mid-major program.

We all want that.

Here are a couple questions that may ignite some fiery responses:

Do you think it is possible for us to grow to a top mid-major program while we have football?

Would you drop football to be the next Wichita State?

I believe that the defections from the CAA have allowed / will allow W&M to breathe in basketball, and to become one of the top programs in the league. The record will get better ... post-season games will occur ... attendance will rise

And then ... the A-10 calls ... W&M says "yes", and down to the bottom the program goes.

I believe that the current CAA football set-up, and the current CAA all-sports set-up, is the best-case scenario for W&M (aside from the ACC ... which isn't happening) ... the CAA is W&M's league, and W&M must see to the CAA's survival.

No chance the A-10 comes calling. As to the dropping football, I would be against it and see no reason why we would need to(in case you missed it, we have a 26 million dollar expansion going on). The success of one is not dependent on not having the other. Even Duke has had a good year or two in football with a perennial top 5 basketball program. I do not want to see William and Mary drop anything. Also, I'd like for us not to become like our delusional CAA partner JMU into thinking we should go FBS or pine for an invitation from a major conference while missing what is going on right in front of us. The CAA is the best place by far for us at this point. Congrats to Wichita State, Butler and VCU, we are not them.

(02-12-2015 12:08 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 11:48 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  I know others here will disagree, I NEVER liked being in same league with VCU.

HOWEVER I think their departure really hurt W&M for two reasons. We lost our closest conference rival. The biggest draws are always the fellow Virginia teams. Students and alumni have friends who go/went there, and they're more familiar with the schools because they've heard about them their whole life (My high school was across the street from Mason

Maybe it's generational, but your comments above are exactly the opposite of how I see this. Among all of our State rivals, VCU seems to have the LEAST linkage or interest with W&M - students, friends or otherwise. I base part of that on just the attendance at our basketball contests at the Hall over the last 15 years we have been together. Our game with Elon last night (2,700) drew more fans than basically ANY of the home games with VCU. You can go back and look at history - but I don't recall ANY game with VCU drawing more than 3,000 people.

To the contrary, games with ODU (2009, 7.500 filled in the Hall), JMU, VMI - certainly Tech or UVA when we can - draw far better - just more interest I think between the students and fan bases.

Mason and VCU have consistently been the lowest State draws on our schedule. Part I think is because there is no football to help fuel the rivalries. The other issue is just commonality - it's just not that deep.

Again, I admire their success and their pep bands - I just don't miss them as conference mates at all.

Strong rumor has it we play VCU here in Kaplan next season.

(02-12-2015 01:04 PM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 12:23 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 12:08 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  I want to be a top mid-major program.

We all want that.

Here are a couple questions that may ignite some fiery responses:

Do you think it is possible for us to grow to a top mid-major program while we have football?

Would you drop football to be the next Wichita State?

Blasphemy!!! No bread pudding for you!!!

What? No, I'm sorry! Please, it'll never happen again...don't 86 my bread pudding.


I wouldn't change a thing. I love our main sports but I also have a ton of respect for our swimmers, golf, gymnastics, and other olympic sport athletes. I would like to see some additional resources floated basketball's way to include better pay for assistants and updated facilities (like the future practice gym). I also have a lot of interest in soccer and I'm always amazed our teams have done so well with so little.

(02-12-2015 02:14 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  Maybe it's generational, but your comments above are exactly the opposite of how I see this. Among all of our State rivals, VCU seems to have the LEAST linkage or interest with W&M - students, friends or otherwise. I base part of that on just the attendance at our basketball contests at the Hall over the last 15 years we have been together. Our game with Elon last night (2,700) drew more fans than basically ANY of the home games with VCU. You can go back and look at history - but I don't recall ANY game with VCU drawing more than 3,000 people.

When I said closest I simply meant geographically. I agree that ODU, UR, and JMU are all bigger draws than VCU. However, they did draw over 3K in 09-10 and they were our most attended home game in 11-12.

(02-12-2015 11:48 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  And the league is no better than the CAA in terms of strength.

I get what you're trying to say, but I have to challenge this statement. No team in the current CAA has ever made it to the Sweet 16. The current CUSA has one team that's won the tournament, two others that have gone to the final four, another that's made it to the elite eight, and two more that have made it to the sweet sixteen. The current CUSA has 109 bids (7.8 per team, including five teams with double digit bids) and the current CAA has 35 bids (4.4 per team, with nobody having more than 7).

This year is a down year for both conferences, but CUSA has four teams in the top-100 with one in the top-50 and the CAA has 1 team in the top-100 and none in the top-50.

I'm not saying I don't think the CAA can get there or that the CAA won't be better in any one particular year. I say this because I think I get why the decision to promote football for ODU didn't feel like a loss for them on the basketball side. We just have to do like we did with the old lineup and prove it with our play on the court (whether out of conference or in the tournament) so that people have to take notice of the CAA again. I do think this means three major things for the Tribe:

(1) We need to plan on having to win the conference tourney to make the NCAA tournament. This is easier because of the relative strength of the conference, now, but harder over the long haul because of the diminished number of slots handed to CAA teams.

(2) I think that we need to schedule extremely tough OOC schedules. I want us to have the attitude that we will play anyone anywhere. If we lose the games, we come out better prepared for the conference slate. If we win the games, it may give us a realistic chance for an at-large.

(3) I'm worried about our recruiting (in the long run) if we don't make our own trip to the dance, soon. Playing stronger teams with recent runs of success is certainly a selling point for recruits. Of course, I'd love to see us make a run and the rest of the conference use playing us as a selling point.

With all of that said, we're sitting in 1st late in the season. Let's handle the regular season and then turn our attention to Baltimore.

Also, I can't seem to find a list, but I believe the Tribe now have 14 straight home wins, which has to be moving up the list of longest active streaks.

(02-12-2015 03:04 PM)TribeNiner Wrote:  Also, I can't seem to find a list, but I believe the Tribe now have 14 straight home wins, which has to be moving up the list of longest active streaks.

Tied for 18th with Oregon State (found on NCAA page under bball stats/misc reports but it cannot be linked)

Gonzaga leads with 38 and Arizona is at 34 in 2nd

(02-12-2015 12:38 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 12:23 PM)Tribal Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 12:08 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  I want to be a top mid-major program.

We all want that.

Here are a couple questions that may ignite some fiery responses:

Do you think it is possible for us to grow to a top mid-major program while we have football?

Would you drop football to be the next Wichita State?

I would hate to drop football for anything. There is nothing better than a relaxing fall weekend in Williamsburg to take in a few beers and a Tribe football game. I would, however, be open to the idea of "de-emphasizing" football to some extent to build basketball. My feelings on this mean jack though, because we are currently laying down a massive infrastructure investment in the football program.

I am very concerned about what the overall college football landscape will look like in the long term (25 to 50 years down the line). I am not just thinking the big money interests of the power 5, but the social and demographic changes of the United States that may have an impact on what kind of entertainment we invest in. Will there be enough interest in college football to justify the investment required to compete at the "2nd-highest" level?

Zable could be a really kick-ass soccer venue some day. And don't get me wrong, it really hurts me to say that.

De-emphasizing football after everything they've managed to accomplish despite significant obstacles over the last 25 years to emphasize a basketball program that's only recently decided to stop eating paste with every meal is a giant middle finger to Laycock, the football program and everyone who has been involved with the football program.

(02-12-2015 03:04 PM)TribeNiner Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 11:48 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  And the league is no better than the CAA in terms of strength.

I get what you're trying to say, but I have to challenge this statement. No team in the current CAA has ever made it to the Sweet 16. The current CUSA has one team that's won the tournament, two others that have gone to the final four, another that's made it to the elite eight, and two more that have made it to the sweet sixteen. The current CUSA has 109 bids (7.8 per team, including five teams with double digit bids) and the current CAA has 35 bids (4.4 per team, with nobody having more than 7).

This year is a down year for both conferences, but CUSA has four teams in the top-100 with one in the top-50 and the CAA has 1 team in the top-100 and none in the top-50.

I'm not saying I don't think the CAA can get there or that the CAA won't be better in any one particular year. I say this because I think I get why the decision to promote football for ODU didn't feel like a loss for them on the basketball side. We just have to do like we did with the old lineup and prove it with our play on the court (whether out of conference or in the tournament) so that people have to take notice of the CAA again. I do think this means three major things for the Tribe:

(1) We need to plan on having to win the conference tourney to make the NCAA tournament. This is easier because of the relative strength of the conference, now, but harder over the long haul because of the diminished number of slots handed to CAA teams.

(2) I think that we need to schedule extremely tough OOC schedules. I want us to have the attitude that we will play anyone anywhere. If we lose the games, we come out better prepared for the conference slate. If we win the games, it may give us a realistic chance for an at-large.

(3) I'm worried about our recruiting (in the long run) if we don't make our own trip to the dance, soon. Playing stronger teams with recent runs of success is certainly a selling point for recruits. Of course, I'd love to see us make a run and the rest of the conference use playing us as a selling point.

With all of that said, we're sitting in 1st late in the season. Let's handle the regular season and then turn our attention to Baltimore.

Also, I can't seem to find a list, but I believe the Tribe now have 14 straight home wins, which has to be moving up the list of longest active streaks.

Lots of stuff there and don't doubt the historical accuracy - though if you are counting UTEP in the early 60s as the NC and UNCC in the Final Four in the 70s as part of the league's "legacy" - I think that's really stretching it.

My point was looking at this league as ODU has joined it, the last two years. Let's face it, it has been no upgrade for their basketball program. This isn't a basketball league known today for muscle - it's a league with Florida International, Florida Atlantic, North Texas State, Middle Tennessee, Louisiana Tech and UT San Antonio. Try and sell that to the casual fan in Norfolk as an upgraded basketball schedule.

Their own fans have bashed it.

(02-12-2015 03:28 PM)Rocco Wrote:  De-emphasizing football after everything they've managed to accomplish despite significant obstacles over the last 25 years to emphasize a basketball program that's only recently decided to stop eating paste with every meal is a giant middle finger to Laycock, the football program and everyone who has been involved with the football program.

Oh my. If our sense of honor was all that mattered, then we shouldn't have given up on D1-A ball in the 70s.

As it stands, top-flight athletic departments spend somewhere in the range of 3 to 7 times more than we do. The question is one of limited resources and how to make the best use of them. I wonder about the future of football in America and I don't think I'm alone in that. Sorry if this speculation has offended Jimmye Laycock (pbuh).

(02-12-2015 05:06 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 03:28 PM)Rocco Wrote:  De-emphasizing football after everything they've managed to accomplish despite significant obstacles over the last 25 years to emphasize a basketball program that's only recently decided to stop eating paste with every meal is a giant middle finger to Laycock, the football program and everyone who has been involved with the football program.

Oh my. If our sense of honor was all that mattered, then we shouldn't have given up on D1-A ball in the 70s.

As it stands, top-flight athletic departments spend somewhere in the range of 3 to 7 times more than we do. The question is one of limited resources and how to make the best use of them. I wonder about the future of football in America and I don't think I'm alone in that. Sorry if this speculation has offended Jimmye Laycock (pbuh).

I think you're missing something here.

Let's start with "limited resources". Is there any doubt in your mind that, if push comes to shove, the football program could be entirely self-funded by football friends and alumni? No doubt in my mind ... so this drain on resources argument has no merit with me.

Let's move on to the football scholarships. Take them away. Which women's sports get cut to satisfy Title IX, or, which men's sports get added which will be more of a financial drain than football?

It's an arms race issue more than a limited resources issue. W&M just doesn't want to get caught up in the arms race, but also doesn't want to play Patriot / Ivy football either.

The current football level is fine, W&M has the resources to compete at this level, and football is not harming the overall athletics brand at the College.

(02-12-2015 05:27 PM)nj alum Wrote:  I think you're missing something here.

Let's start with "limited resources". Is there any doubt in your mind that, if push comes to shove, the football program could be entirely self-funded by football friends and alumni? No doubt in my mind ... so this drain on resources argument has no merit with me.

Let's move on to the football scholarships. Take them away. Which women's sports get cut to satisfy Title IX, or, which men's sports get added which will be more of a financial drain than football?

It's an arms race issue more than a limited resources issue. W&M just doesn't want to get caught up in the arms race, but also doesn't want to play Patriot / Ivy football either.

The current football level is fine, W&M has the resources to compete at this level, and football is not harming the overall athletics brand at the College.

Okay fair enough. I realize that the institutional and community support is there for football at the current level. My posts were in response to Tribal's original question ("would you drop football if it meant having Wichita State level basketball?"). The nature of the hypothetical suggests that basketball and football resources be freely interchangeable, contrary to reality. Within that framework, I would push basketball as far is it would take us and maybe run the football program in the Patriot or Ivy as you suggest.

I don't see playing Patriot league football as some great insult as compared to playing in the CAA, so I would be willing to trade down for improved basketball if that was the bargain being offered.

(02-12-2015 05:06 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 03:28 PM)Rocco Wrote:  De-emphasizing football after everything they've managed to accomplish despite significant obstacles over the last 25 years to emphasize a basketball program that's only recently decided to stop eating paste with every meal is a giant middle finger to Laycock, the football program and everyone who has been involved with the football program.

Oh my. If our sense of honor was all that mattered, then we shouldn't have given up on D1-A ball in the 70s.

As it stands, top-flight athletic departments spend somewhere in the range of 3 to 7 times more than we do. The question is one of limited resources and how to make the best use of them. I wonder about the future of football in America and I don't think I'm alone in that. Sorry if this speculation has offended Jimmye Laycock (pbuh).

W&M isn't a top-flight athletic department and isn't going to be there until someone on this board hits the lottery and decides to be W&M's Phil Knight. That's a red herring. The changes that will hit college football in the next decade or so are likely going to hit the schools in the C-USA, MAC, etc. the hardest. Teams like W&M that aren't trying to satisfy champagne tastes on a beer budget will probably be alright because they aren't depending on large sums of money that won't likely be there. The biggest future hit could be if P5 teams stop scheduling 1-AA teams for paycheck games, which would hurt but not as much as teams who made long-term plans based on big TV money they won't get any longer (looking at you, Cincinnati).

As for best use of limited resources, the football program has shown what it can do. So has the basketball program. The results speak for themselves. The football program has the Laycock Center, lights, Zable improvements etc. because of what they have done. The basketball program has languished because of its two decade stretch of craptacular play. If money were awarded on merit the basketball program would have been zeroed out somewhere around 2004.

(02-12-2015 06:18 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 05:27 PM)nj alum Wrote:  I think you're missing something here.

Let's start with "limited resources". Is there any doubt in your mind that, if push comes to shove, the football program could be entirely self-funded by football friends and alumni? No doubt in my mind ... so this drain on resources argument has no merit with me.

Let's move on to the football scholarships. Take them away. Which women's sports get cut to satisfy Title IX, or, which men's sports get added which will be more of a financial drain than football?

It's an arms race issue more than a limited resources issue. W&M just doesn't want to get caught up in the arms race, but also doesn't want to play Patriot / Ivy football either.

The current football level is fine, W&M has the resources to compete at this level, and football is not harming the overall athletics brand at the College.

Okay fair enough. I realize that the institutional and community support is there for football at the current level. My posts were in response to Tribal's original question ("would you drop football if it meant having Wichita State level basketball?"). The nature of the hypothetical suggests that basketball and football resources be freely interchangeable, contrary to reality. Within that framework, I would push basketball as far is it would take us and maybe run the football program in the Patriot or Ivy as you suggest.

I don't see playing Patriot league football as some great insult as compared to playing in the CAA, so I would be willing to trade down for improved basketball if that was the bargain being offered.

I don't think Patriot league basketball is a step up...

(02-12-2015 06:18 PM)A Quest Called Tribe Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 05:27 PM)nj alum Wrote:  I think you're missing something here.

Let's start with "limited resources". Is there any doubt in your mind that, if push comes to shove, the football program could be entirely self-funded by football friends and alumni? No doubt in my mind ... so this drain on resources argument has no merit with me.

Let's move on to the football scholarships. Take them away. Which women's sports get cut to satisfy Title IX, or, which men's sports get added which will be more of a financial drain than football?

It's an arms race issue more than a limited resources issue. W&M just doesn't want to get caught up in the arms race, but also doesn't want to play Patriot / Ivy football either.

The current football level is fine, W&M has the resources to compete at this level, and football is not harming the overall athletics brand at the College.

Okay fair enough. I realize that the institutional and community support is there for football at the current level. My posts were in response to Tribal's original question ("would you drop football if it meant having Wichita State level basketball?"). The nature of the hypothetical suggests that basketball and football resources be freely interchangeable, contrary to reality. Within that framework, I would push basketball as far is it would take us and maybe run the football program in the Patriot or Ivy as you suggest.

I don't see playing Patriot league football as some great insult as compared to playing in the CAA, so I would be willing to trade down for improved basketball if that was the bargain being offered.

I listened to people argue back in the 70s that if we only dropped football, we could be like Georgetown in basketball.

Never heard such a shallow argument. Who says you will be Georgetown if you drop football? And why do we want to be like Georgetown anyway? I would much rather be like Stanford - competitive in both sports.

Why did this even come up anyway? It's a ridiculous subject. We have a basketball program that everyone's excited with - and suddenly the subject comes up about sacrificing football. Assinine.

Geeze, mine was a question asking if the intelligent folks on this board feel our focus (resources & fan interest) on football in any way disadvantages our ability or interest in growing basketball to a high mid-major level. If you feel that question or this topic is ridiculous, I'm sure the CSNBBS Constitution protects you from forced participation.

(02-12-2015 09:59 PM)Tribal Wrote:  Geeze, mine was a question asking if the intelligent folks on this board feel our focus (resources & fan interest) on football in any way disadvantages our ability or interest in growing basketball to a high mid-major level. If you feel that question or this topic is ridiculous, I'm sure the CSNBBS Constitution protects you from forced participation.

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You called, for intelligent folks???? Ready when you need me!!

Joe Lunardi's latest Bracketology has W&M as a 14 seed playing Louisville in the 1st round. Louisville's nasty defensively but their offense is really rough, so it would be an interesting contrast in styles if it happened.